Did Jesus say he was God???

[Sonic247]

I can of mine own self do nothing

Then who was talking

 

[Popeyesays]

Then who was talking

\\

Jesus of Nazareth was speaking--a man born of a woman--He was glorifying God with His speech. Something we are all supposed to do.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Sonic247]

But he couldn't do anything by himself, and God doesn't sin with people so Jesus was sinless, and Jesus already established that there was none good but one.

 

[Muffled]

[/b]


Nice quote. I like that one too....

Mighty God (EL Gibor)

Gabri-El (Mighty God)

Now are we to assume that the Angel Gabriel is God as well?

Gabriel never said He was God but Jesus did. Even so Gabriel has all the power of God at his disposal just as Jesus does.

 

[Popeyesays]

But he couldn't do anything by himself, and God doesn't sin with people so Jesus was sinless, and Jesus already established that there was none good but one.

I think that argument's been tortured so long it can't even scream anymore.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

Opens a whole can of worms with regard to whether or not Baha'is could be considered "Christian," in the strictest sense...

I'm not prepared to make an argumet either way. My jury's still out...

It matters very little in that respect whethet they believe that Jesus is God in the flesh or not because all the messengers are equal as the Qu'ran states. Jesus speaks with the authority of God which is good enough for Baha'is but maybe not Muslims who constantly try to muzzle Jesus and claim He never said things.

The problem comes at crucifixion time. If it is not God on the cross then there is no proof that God loves us enough to forgive our sins. If God sent someone else it just means that God is willing to sacrifice one of us confirming our tendency to believe that we don't count for much anyway.

 

[Muffled]

Well I don't think anyone who believes the Bible would think that you (or anyone else here) is closer to God then John or Paul, and Paul did meet Jesus, what do you think, that he was dead?

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.I and [my] Father are one.

It is the essence of Christianity that Jesus and the Father are one with the Paraclete which worked in Paul, the members of the church and us. I feel confident that the Paraclete speaks through me and interprets scripture according to His will and expresses that through me. The problem is that sometimes people will claim to have God speaking through them but they are inventing it in their own minds.

Here Jesus equates the greaterness of the Father with His oneness with the Father.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Then who was talking

Eaxctly...!!!!

He could do nothing on his own. He was sent here to do a job. He was "commanded" what he should say. The job he was to do was not his agenda but the one who sent him. He informs God that the job is done then he returns to heaven.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Gabriel never said He was God but Jesus did.

Jesus never said he was God. Another christian here has already stated that Jesus never said he was God. He does say... "that doesn't mean he's not God"

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

If he is God then wouldn't he already know what to say?

If he is God then who commanded him what to say?

If he is God then why does he need to be commanded?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Here Jesus equates the greaterness of the Father with His oneness with the Father.

Exactly ("oneness") and (one in the same) are totally different.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

THe Word is Creation. God not only Creates but maintains Creation, therefore the Word is still with God. Just like Jesus came to earth, but the Word remained with God even while it was on earth with Jesus. Also at the same time it remains with Creation all the time

Yet you ignore the plain statement of the verse that the Word IS God. You believe the Word is Creation, but said that Creation is not God; therefore the Word cannot be Creation.

The Word is God's connection to Creation.

Through the Incarnation, I agree with you in a sense. However, that doesn't mean the Word is not God; the verse undeniably says that He is.

You know it's not the end of the world that we do not agree. It's not the end of either of us. Coming to an understanding is a voyage never to be completed.

Oh, I am fully aware that it's not the end of the world. My bet is I'm still going to be a Trinitarian Christian at the end of this discussion and you're still going to be a Baha'i. But that doesn't mean I can't question you on what I see are weaknesses in your Biblical exegesis; I'm simply asking you to explain your rationale in making the verse say essentially the exact opposite of what it actually says. The Word, who was made flesh and who dwelt among us, is God.

 

[Popeyesays]

The Bahai Faith is a little over 160 years old. We don't have much theology, exegesis and apologetics are probably the most developed practices so far.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yet you ignore the plain statement of the verse that the Word IS God.

Becareful, you're starting to sound like me.

I'm simply asking you to explain your rationale in making the verse say essentially the exact opposite of what it actually says. The

Yea, this sounds like my post.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Jesus was clear when he said;

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.




Matt 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.............

Matt 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

John
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John
5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Congratulations; you have established that Jesus has a human nature. However, if you understand Trinitarian thought you would realize that this does not preclude His divine nature. If you believe any of these verse preclude Jesus' divine nature you'll have to explain how.

So because, as you say, he didn't say he was not God we are to assume, like you, that he is??? Where's the logic in that???

No, there's no need to assume. You simply need to look at the whole picture of what we see in the Gospels and the Bible, rather than picking apart select verses. Clearly, there are instances where Jesus is seen as a man, subservient to the Father. There are other places where He is clearly seen as God. Thus, you arrive at the complete Biblical view of Trinitarians that Jesus has two natures.

Observe Matt 19:17

Observe Matt. 12:35 and John 10:11.

Since Jesus calls others, and Himself, "good" in these passages, don't you think it's possible that Matt. 19:17 is a hyperbole? If so, this probably isn't the best proof text to use if you're trying to show that Jesus isn't God.

And again, it is my position that I did not interpert the scriptures to make them fit a theory. What interpertation did I give? Go back throughout this thread and grab one.

LOL...are you kidding? Throughout our entire conversation I've been replying to various posts you've made and have said repeatedly, "That's an interpretation...that's an interpretation...that's an interpretation." I'm not going to re-post it all, go back and look if you like.

 

[Popeyesays]

"Congratulations; you have established that Jesus has a human nature. However, if you understand Trinitarian thought you would realize that this does not preclude His divine nature. If you believe any of these verse preclude Jesus' divine nature you'll have to explain how. "

Why? Trinitarian symbology is not necessarily a statement of reality. After all the transmutation of bread and wine is a thing of symbols, not physical reality.

Just because some choose to stretch the symbology beyond all reasonable extension does not make their belief divine truth.

If you're going to cite trinitarian thought as proof of Jesus divine nature, you first have to prove trinitarian thought.

Go ahead, we'll wait.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

If you say so.




Yep. And I still hold that Jesus is not God. The quotes I have provided show that he is a servant to do the will of he that sent him. No interpertation needed....Becaue that is exactly what Jesus said and it exactly what he did.



Already saw it. I'm not sure you see it. Yes God the father sent Jesus the son. When Jesus was done doing the will of the father who sent him he returned to heaven.




Sure it does. Just because you assume Jesus is God doesn't make it so.




If you notice that was done on purpose. That was an interpertation. If you noticed when I put forth a quote from Jesus and I comment on that verse it is confirmation of the quote itself to show that Jesus is not God. You've read them. I didn't say "I believe what this verse means" or "What Jesus was trying to say".....etc...etc.....

I was going to pass over this one but God came to me in a dream and has this to say to you: I served you by creating a body for you. I served you by breathing in your spirit. I serve you by providing for food to be grown. I bring the rain that helps the food to grow. Why are you being ungrateful saying that the fact that I am a servant means that I can't be God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I was going to pass over this one but God came to me in a dream and has this to say to you: I served you by creating a body for you. I served you by breathing in your spirit. I serve you by providing for food to be grown. I bring the rain that helps the food to grow. Why are you being ungrateful saying that the fact that I am a servant means that I can't be God.

Because you have done all these things for me as you have done for your son/self...


I am a god too. Is it not written in the law you gave us that we are gods?


Did you not pray to yourself and ask yourself to make us one with your father/son?


Surely, you being God the father/son know that (I am) univeral thus (I am) divine?


Why dust thou asketh what thou already knoweth?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Congratulations; you have established that Jesus has a human nature. However, if you understand Trinitarian thought you would realize that this does not preclude His divine nature. If you believe any of these verse preclude Jesus' divine nature you'll have to explain how.

You're doing it again. You will find (NOWHERE) in these postings where I said Jesus was not divine.

Divine...YES

Deity...NO

These verses do not preclude him being divine but they do preclude him being God. There's no doubt that he was divine and his divinity was given to him by God. He said he came from heaven to do a job for God. Being divine is not in question...Being God is.

You simply need to look at the whole picture of what we see in the Gospels and the Bible, rather than picking apart select verses.

The question was asked and all I did was show the verses where Jesus gave a clear answer. To look past what he said in order for it to fit a trinity theory is speculation on your part.

Is Jeus God in the Flesh?......NO

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 7:28-29
7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Clearly, there are instances where Jesus is seen as a man, subservient to the Father. There are other places where He is clearly seen as God.

There are plenty of instances where he said he is subservient and nowhere, he says he is God but the contrary.

Thus, you arrive at the complete Biblical view of Trinitarians that Jesus has two natures.

Oh, I see. It's how the trinitarian views Jesus...NOT how Jeus viewed himself????

Since Jesus calls others, and Himself, "good" in these passages, don't you think it's possible that Matt. 19:17 is a hyperbole?

Your assuming I'm talking about him being good or how he uses the word good in a particular context. I'm not. That verse shows that he does not think of himself as God or equal to God.

LOL...are you kidding? Throughout our entire conversation I've been replying to various posts you've made and have said repeatedly, "That's an interpretation...that's an interpretation...that's an interpretation." I'm not going to re-post it all, go back and look if you like.

And yet no interpertaion was made. John 20:17 is clear...........I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[kmkemp]

I think that you should read the rest of John 20 before you use that verse as evidence. Particularly verse 31...

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Why? Trinitarian symbology is not necessarily a statement of reality. After all the transmutation of bread and wine is a thing of symbols, not physical reality.

According to certain Protestants

Just because some choose to stretch the symbology beyond all reasonable extension does not make their belief divine truth.

If you're going to cite trinitarian thought as proof of Jesus divine nature, you first have to prove trinitarian thought.

Go ahead, we'll wait.

So you are asking for proof that Trinitarians believe Jesus is God? Or proof that they believe He has two natures (i.e. the hypostatic union)? See the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed.

My point, which apparently you missed, was that pointing out verses that show that Jesus was a human does nothing to invalidate Trinitarian theology. Trinitarians DO believe Jesus was/is a man.