FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Not sure what you mean by this...I'll do the illogical Trinitarian thing, give you the benefit of the doubt, and let it go.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came, and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and upon earth.
Well if he existed in heaven as "God"...how can he be given power? This is what I mean by simple and plain of what Jesus said. He said it not me. It's not my interpertation that he was given power...he said it. It's not me that said he was seperate from God....His words, while in heaven, show that he was.
John 6:38
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.
Matthew 9:6-8 are in agreement with 28:18
Matt 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Matt 9:7
And he arose, and departed to his house.
Matt 9:8
But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
Each were of their (THE JEWS) misunderstanding as to who Jesus was and in both cases he had to clear up who he was to them (THE JEWS)....and none of it showed that he was God. That is what he was trying to tell them.
That's certainly your interpertain. Just because God showed him (taught him) some things they would marvel at does not make Jesus omniscient. In Matthew 28:18 God had to grant Jesus power (ALL POWER) while in heaven. If God had to grant Jesus power then that means he wasn't omniscient from the beginning.
More interpertaion..."both"????? are equal??. That's not how Jesus saw it. He says Matt. 28:18 power has been granted thus meaning he was not equal to begin with.
Hardly. You have already admitted that yours is an interpertaion.. Your interpertaion is that Jesus is fully God but subservient to God with having the same power as God due to God granting God all power thus making God omiscient just like God...:sarcastic
Sorry, but Matthew 28:18 says his Authority (Power) granted while he was in heaven AND on earth. That is exactly what it says in Matthew 9:6.....(power was given)
So you have shown that he is able to do what God lets him do. This is what I've been saying all along but none of this proves him being deity just divine.
Oh, I read them...I just don't agree with your interpertation of them. Is it sufficient to say that or should I give you my reasons why I don't agree....not that it would really matter to you.....
It will just keep us going in circles.......
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Jesus was given back His power when He was resurrected because He had given up His power to come down to Earth and take on a human nature.
Sure, but it is your interpretation that this statement means He is not God.
God the Father, of course...Trinitarians believe this.
not so...in John 5 John is not quoting the Jews as in John 10...he is commenting on the verse himself...so again, if John believed it, why don't you?
Sure it is, I don't deny that. What's curious, however, is that when it comes to your beliefs you claim you don't interpret, even when earlier you said that we interpret everything we read, and that even a literal reading is still an interpretation.
No, not "some" things...ALL things. If the Father is omniscient, and Jesus knows all things the Father knows, then that makes Jesus...?
No, it means He wasn't omniscient in His subservient human form while on Earth. All power was given back to Him when He rose from the dead.
Clearly it is...as you pointed out, Jesus said it, not me. He said that He is shown ALL things that the Father does, and said that He and His Father work equally, and said that He and His Father have equal power to give life, and said that He and His Father deserve equal honor.
Asked and answered.
Of course it is...earlier you admitted that any and every reading of a given text is an interpretation....which means yours are as well. It's not inherently a bad thing, nor did I ever claim it was. My question was, are you an INFALLIBLE interpreter or Scripture? Are your interpretations ever wrong?
..
Yes
Correct.
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:5-8
This passage describes the Trinitarian position perfectly. Jesus is the very form of God and did not consider it robbery to be equal with God...how is that possible if He isn't God?
He humbled Himself and came in the likeness and appearance of a man, becoming willingly obedient to the Father. However, as we learn from St. Paul, this does not diminish His deity.
Yes.
Not from the beginning; Jesus, as God, always had all power before the Incarnation. The Father gave Jesus back the power He already had before willingly humbling Himself.
You seem to mock it yet you did not answer the question I asked you along this vein. If the Father is omniscient and He shows Jesus all things, that would of necessity make Jesus omniscient...and if only God is omniscient, that makes Jesus...?
Same old claim, given the same old answer.
No, I have shown that He willingly humbled Himself. He had all power before coming to Earth as God; and yet even on Earth He clearly shows us His equality with the Father. He even says while on Earth that all things that the Father has are His. If He knows all things the Father knows, and has all things that the things the Father has, and can do all the things that the Father does, and the Father is God, then what does that make Jesus?
I would really be interested to hear your interpretations, but I agree that this thread has lost its luster. If you'd like to offer them in PM that would be fine. This will be my last response to you or Pop in this thread.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
I agree there;s not much point in continuing, but I have no interest in a PM discussion. PM 's are not for debating, they are for private communication.
Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott
I haven't looked at this discussion in awhile but I think it is important to understand that Jesus experienced both mental and physical pain/joy while on Earth. Instead of being from "outside of this world", He was physical part of the world - which include the temptations of mankind. I re-read the Gospel of John yesterday, and it became apparent to me that God and Jesus were in fact One; HOWEVER, Jesus was a man and had the same temptations as mankind. It seems that when Jesus is quoted as saying "the One who sent me or Father", He wants to make it clear that Jesus COULD sin - b/c he is a man - but when he was outside of the world/man, He could not. Anyways, done with this thread!
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And where might we find this evidence that he "gave up his powerin heaven?" Is this something Jesus says or is this another interpertaion?
It doesn't change what's happening in any event. So John is commenting is chapter 5 as to what he saw or heard Jesus or the jews say. Chapter 10 from verse 1-30 seem to be written in the first person by John then he comments after that like he did in 5. As far as not believing it...who, but you, says I don't believe it? It's not that I don't believe it...it's that I don't believe you....!!
No interpertations are needed to see that he isn't God...He is divine though. I'm not sure why you're curious. Perhaps Muffled can fill you in...It would appear that God speaks through him...
No, not "some" things...ALL things. If the Father is omniscient, and Jesus knows all things the Father knows, then that makes Jesus...?
Matthew
24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
I believe I have answered that one already.
Which is his interpertation. He does little show Jesus was a deity. Jesus' description of himself disagrees with Paul's assumptions.
Shows divinity but does nothing to show deity. I fail to see where this is going.
If he is God then why would he have to be shown or given anything?
Oneness and (One in the same) are totally different.
Do you see where this is going??.......(NO Where)....!!!!
Your interpertaion. That has been well established.
He shows the exact oppisite.
Because they were given to him. Doesn't mean he is God.
Still makes him Jesus the Messiah...Sent by God blessed with the holy spirit from God to do God's will, whom once was done completing God's will and informed God of the completion of the task given...returned to heaven from where he came.
Now what were you expecting me to say?
Whew....Thank you....It's been a pleasure chatting with you though. You are very insightful. I honestly do respect your beliefs. Your way maynot be my way but it has been good reading your point of view.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Divinity means a god. As you ought to know from the Qu'ran Jesus could not say that he is a God. However He is the God in the flesh which retains God's oneness whereas a separate divinity does not. You are right that you don't need interpretation because you have decided your own thinking supercedes the word of God. Jesus said you should not judge by appearances. It is possible to discern that God speaks through me by the spirit of God which is available to Muslims by realizing the faith of Abraham.
Read John 12:36-41
John 12:44 - When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he look at me, He SEES the one that sent me.
Jesus is essentially saying that God and him are One. If Jesus was not, in fact God, then he would be the exact opposite of divine b/c he is comparing his perfectness to God.
John 13:12-13 "Do you not understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. You call me 'TEACHER' and 'LORD,' and rightly so, for that IS WHAT I AM.
John 12:44 - When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he look at me, He SEES the one that sent me.
Jesus is essentially saying that God and him are One. If Jesus was not, in fact God, then he would be the exact opposite of divine b/c he is comparing his perfectness to God.
John 13:12-13 "Do you not understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. You call me 'TEACHER' and 'LORD,' and rightly so, for that IS WHAT I AM.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Divine does not mean he is God. Jesus davinity' (The power to do what he did) was granted (given) to him by God. He could do nothing by himself.
This is not a Quranic/bible comparison. That said, you have misunderstood the role of Jesus as shown by the quran. My position stands. In the verse you are attempting to quote Jesus is asking God for something and God asks him if he portrayed himself or his mother as gods and Jesus told God he had no right to do that and if he did surely God would know what was in his soul.
5:114
Said Jesus son of Mary, 'O God, our Lord, send down upon us a Table out of heaven, that shall be for us a festival, the first and last of us, and a sign from Thee. And provide for us; Thou art the best of providers.'
5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen
Quoting the quran does nothing for your assumption that Jesus is God. We clearly see the distinct seperation here. Jesus said "to thee be glory"...You can never use the quran to make Jesus to be God. There are too many verses that prove otherwise. The quran does nothing to help you by the verse 5:110
5:110
When God said, 'Jesus Son of Mary, remember My blessing upon thee and upon thy mother, when I confirmed thee with the Holy Spirit, to speak to men in the cradle, and of age; and when I taught thee the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel; and when thou createst out of clay, by My leave, as the likeness of a bird, and thou breathest into it, and it is a bird, by My leave; and thou healest the blind and the leper by My leave, and thou bringest the dead forth by My leave; and when restrained from thee the Children of Israel when thou camest unto them with the clear signs, and the unbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but sorcery manifest."
So once more, Jesus' divinity was granted to him by God. Any power he has was given to him by God.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
You asked the question and don't like the answer given. Your problem...not mine. If you want people to agree with your assumptions then post them in a forum where you will get what you want. if you post them to be debated on then expect what you are now getting. Jesus told us who sent him. He told use where he came from. He told us what he was here to do. Jesus informed God he had completed the task that was given to him to be completed. Jesus told us he was going back from where he came. None of that is interpertation and ALL of it is from the scriptures. Check for yourself. If these things I said about Jesus are not there then I'll take it all back. I know it's there because he says it so plainly. If you want to look beyond that and worship Jesus as God then continue to do what you do. It is not my place to
Great....then just because he does the things God allows him to do does not make him God. I certainly didn't Judge by appearance. It was plain and simple to understand what he said.
It is possible that God guides my fingertips to debunk the assumptions you assert. That is certainly a possibility?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Again, Oneness does not mean (One in the same).
John 12:44, 49, 50 (King James Version)
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
12:50
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
All that he said was if you believe me then you believe that I have been sent by God and I speak nothing of myself for God has commanded me what I shoud say and what I should speak. I aknowledge that his commandment is life everlasting. what, therefore, I speak, according as the Father hath said to me, so I speak.
Nothing in all of this shows that Jesus is God, but the opposite.
AND??????
Are you empasizing these words to make Jesus fit your theory? (Teacher, Lord, Master, Rabbi) were common terms in those days. In chinese culture (teacher and master) were common terms of respect. In England (Lord) was a common term of respect. In jewish culture (Rabbi) is still used.
This is what is actually said in whole and not in part.
John 13:12-15
13:12
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13:13
Ye call me Master and Rabbi: and ye say well; for I am so.
13:14
If I then, your Rabbi and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I know you have wanted to debate this point for a long time. There is nothing in these statements that diminish the proof of Jesus being God. God can send God, command God, pray to God, talk to God. Since He can do all these things he is no less God for doing them.
I have had many Christians tell me that it is not so: however from my experience it is and there is a story about it in the Bible as well. He could do a better job with you though because I hardly feel a ripple of controversy from you. Maybe you are just palying the straight man and i get to tell the jokes, lol.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. I've been in plenty of debates with trinitarians on this subject.
Matt 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
John
5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.
John
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John
5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
John
5:37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 7:28-29
7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
John
7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 20:17 (in part)
............ I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
On the contrary. ALL of these verses prove that he is not God.
Surely you have proof of this and not just your assumptions????
More assumptions
Again with the assumptions
This is just too funny. This line of thinking does nothing to help you.
God can send God????
Can you find me a quote in the scriptures that say God sent God?
God prays to God????
Find me a quote where is says God prayed to God
God talks to God????
Well you know what I'm about to request? Can you find me a quote That says God talks to God?
huuuhhhh,,,,What....??????
All of this is your assumption for which you have NO PROOF of.
Do share. I'd like to see where this is going. Please show me that story
Well, YOU asked the question and I gave you the answers. They weren't the answers you wanted to hear. If you simply wanted people to agree with you then you should have posted in an area where you would get what you wanted. I didn't post to be controversal. I posted as the scripture show... Jesus is not God.
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I don't remember any but my assertions are not assumptions but a matter of deductive reasoning. I reason that anything I can do God can do also. The reason that I believe that is that I don't believe that I am more adept than my creator. However I could not pray to myself because I am not God. God praying to Himself is only an extension of God talking to himself. The Biblical story that comes to mind is that of the Apostle Paul hearing the word of God to go to Ananias and Aananias hearing the word of God to expect Paul. God was speaking to each person in two different places. It only makes sense then that God in a body can speak to God in Heaven even though they are in two different places. In fact this can't happen with men because men can't be in two different places.
I Kings 13. I will excerpt the story for you. A man of God (unnamed) was sent by God to the King of Israel to give him a prophecy and the man of God was told to go directly home afterwards. On his way an old prophet stopped him and convinced him to stop at his house a while saying that God told him it was OK for him to visit. The man of God was subsequently killed because he disobeyed the word he had from God by listening to the word of God from the old prophet.
You say this so often I almost think you believe it. If you didn't have anything worthwhile to say I probably wouldn't bother listening to you but you do have a propensity that I find common among Muslims, repeating yourself as though that somehow helps your argument. I would like to get you to think a little more deeply than that.
Sometimes God will use a person as a backdrop to His words. The dialogues of Jesus with the Pharisees are a prime example. I tend to think they were pretty clueless as to what Jesus was doing. I doubt very much that He was trying to convince them.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. John bare witness to him and cried saying...."
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
John 10:30
"I and my Father are ONE."
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that tath seen me hath seen the FATHER, and how sayest thou then, show us the Father?"
Just because we are not able to fully understand why Jesus refers to God as "my Father," it would be wrong to neglect the perfect holiness and justice of Jesus. Is it not possible that Jesus says the "Son" because he is now God and in the flesh. "The Father" lives outside of this world and does not have the temptations of mankind. But when God was born in the flesh, He (Jesus) now had to deal with such temptations. Also, take note that Jesus does NOT say "Our Father." If Jesus was not God in the flesh, wouldn't it seem very logical that He address God as "Our Father." Also, note that Jesus never denies being God whenever he is addressed as God, Teacher, or Lord.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. John bare witness to him and cried saying...."
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
John 10:30
"I and my Father are ONE."
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that tath seen me hath seen the FATHER, and how sayest thou then, show us the Father?"
Just because we are not able to fully understand why Jesus refers to God as "my Father," it would be wrong to neglect the perfect holiness and justice of Jesus. Is it not possible that Jesus says the "Son" because he is now God and in the flesh. "The Father" lives outside of this world and does not have the temptations of mankind. But when God was born in the flesh, He (Jesus) now had to deal with such temptations. Also, take note that Jesus does NOT say "Our Father." If Jesus was not God in the flesh, wouldn't it seem very logical that He address God as "Our Father." Also, note that Jesus never denies being God whenever he is addressed as God, Teacher, or Lord.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"If Jesus was not God in the flesh, wouldn't it seem very logical that He address God as "Our Father." Also, note that Jesus never denies being God whenever he is addressed as God, Teacher, or Lord."
Teacher and Lord are not synonymous with "God".
The places you cite where people address Him as "God" don't really say that.
Please understand, to see jesus or Moses or Muhammad or Baha`u'llah with one's own eyes was as close to seing God as is possible for man in the flesh. Out of the Flesh as well, in my opinion. They are perfect mirrors which reflect the Glory of God that we could never see otherwise.
Even saying that, it does not make Jesus "God" The Ocean cannot be contained in a teacup, and neither can God be contained in human flesh. It can be reflected forth and the Great Prophets are perfect mirrors to do that. You and I and the rest of humanity are not 'perfect mirrors'.
Regards,
Scott
Teacher and Lord are not synonymous with "God".
The places you cite where people address Him as "God" don't really say that.
Please understand, to see jesus or Moses or Muhammad or Baha`u'llah with one's own eyes was as close to seing God as is possible for man in the flesh. Out of the Flesh as well, in my opinion. They are perfect mirrors which reflect the Glory of God that we could never see otherwise.
Even saying that, it does not make Jesus "God" The Ocean cannot be contained in a teacup, and neither can God be contained in human flesh. It can be reflected forth and the Great Prophets are perfect mirrors to do that. You and I and the rest of humanity are not 'perfect mirrors'.
Regards,
Scott
I understand what you are saying Scott; however, you are limiting the powers of God. Additionally, when Jesus says "I and the Father are one," he is literally stating they are the same.
Comparing Jesus with the other religious figures is wrong though because the other religious leaders did not show literal miracles and did not claim to be literally perfect.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Grammatically and syntactically He says no such thing.
No, it's not wrong. Miracles were obvious--not that miracles prove anything to those who do not witness them.
Moses struck water from the rock-mana fell from heaven-the plagues descended, etc. etc,
The Bab was in two places at once on more than one occasion and was miraculously delivered from the first execution attempt because He had not finished dictating to His secretary an important letter. Those miracles are witnessed by many--in the last case by thousands, some of whom were European diplomats who wrote about the event.
Regards,
Scott
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
This is your interpertation of me. I'm not a muslim. Sometimes things need to be repeated to those who aren't listening.
You're assuming I'm not. You see it the way you want to see it. Just because I don't go along with it doesn't mean that deep thougt has not been used to get my point across. The scripture show that Jesus is not God. He shares a oneness but they are not one in the same.
Okay, I have read many posts on this issue and I believe that is the easiest way to connect Jesus and God. It seems very logical to me; however, I am sure that some of you will disagree because of the presupposed conclusion you have already made on this matter.
Simply look at John 1:1 and 1:14 (which gives the purpose of John's gospel)
Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
"Jesus said unto Him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, "Show us the Father"?'" (John 14:9)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Because John is attempting to appeal to both Gentiles and Jewish readers, "word" is recognized by both both in thought and philosophy. Relating it to the OT, the "word" is used to as an execution of God's will.
"The Word was with God", so the Word is distinct from the Father. Therefore, this is saying, "Jesus was with God". The "Word was God", so Jesus was God in the fullest sense. In essence, this phrase is saying "Jesus was God."
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"Okay, I have read many posts on this issue and I believe that is the easiest way to connect Jesus and God. It seems very logical to me; however, I am sure that some of you will disagree because of the presupposed conclusion you have already made on this matter."
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Thanks, I needed that.
Regards,
Scott
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Thanks, I needed that.
Regards,
Scott