Did Jesus say he was God???

[look3467]

Ummm...referencing the part whree Paul says "Work out your Salvation with Fear and trembling". Your response to this was "sometimes people get in a bind". Okay....? Do you honestly think that is a sufficient answer to Paul claiming that everyone's salvation is NOT guaranteed apparently and has to be "worked out"? What kind of Bind? How did they get into this bind and why is their salvation in jeopardy, and where does the text indicate this through the context? (Hint: It doesn't, and your interpretation goes squarely against the rest of Phil). Paul clearly says to show your repentance with "deeds". These are not just "Spiritual labors". I have no idea what a "Spiritual Labor" is and I don't think the bible contains any kind of precedent of the concept nor did the author mean anything besides "Physical works" and "Obedience to the commandmnets"when he said "works". Just because these concepts don't fit with your doctrine of Easy-123 salvation doesn't mean you get to interpret it in your own unprecedented terms. The "Labor" here is clearly referring to actual, physical redemptive work and obedience.Even Abraham's sacrifice which Paul describes as a test of faith was a work. I'm guessing you don't read James either. Or 1 John.

The reason I questioned by the word "referencing" is because I said the word "bind".

The question is Shermana, does God not have the power to forgive all?

Tell me, what sin can God not forgive?

God's love is not limited by our bad behavior. If it were, then we all would be without hope.

If you love God......then you strive to do your best in this life. Don't demand that other do it. Each has to cross the wilderness on their own or with God's pillar of fire lighting the way.

That is a choice we have and that is the only way that are works of faith are tested, hopefully, making us stronger in our spiritual walk with God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Jesus said He was God, it's in the Holy Bible and the early Christians agree, that's good enough for me , being that they never said He wasn't. Only people saying that Jesus isn't God are those that no longer walked with Him as described in the Book of John and some people today that aren't Christians anyway.

The purpose of the tree of life is God, for He alone is life. Who else can grant life save God?

Yes, regardless of how many people want to argue the divinity of Jesus, it's OK, for when the time comes, they all shall see Him either while yet alive, as in like you and I, or for all others when their spirits depart their bodies.

Every knee, regardless, will bow at the feet of Jesus, not literately, but figuratively, meaning, that Jesus will be recognized as God.

blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

The reason I questioned by the word "referencing" is because I said the word "bind".

The question is Shermana, does God not have the power to forgive all?

Tell me, what sin can God not forgive?

God's love is not limited by our bad behavior. If it were, then we all would be without hope.

If you love God......then you strive to do your best in this life. Don't demand that other do it. Each has to cross the wilderness on their own or with God's pillar of fire lighting the way.

That is a choice we have and that is the only way that are works of faith are tested, hopefully, making us stronger in our spiritual walk with God.

Blessings, AJ

There's a difference between demanding someone do it and pointing out to them that they need to do it. Forgiveness is only achieved by repentance and showing it through deeds. And that involves not sinning. One cannot just sin and expect to be forgiven for it as an excuse, so therefore one must strive to not sin, and also to know what is sin and what is not.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus said He was God, it's in the Holy Bible

No he didn't unless you have an explicit quote from your bible where he did.

and the early Christians agree, that's good enough for me

So. People back in the day said Zeus was "God". It doesn't matter what the people say. The fact of the matter is the biblical Yeshua never said he was. When someone called him "good"...he corrected the person and said (why are you calling me good? There is none that is good but God alone). If he was "God" then no correction would have been needed.

being that they never said He wasn't.

This is known as an argument from ignorance and it doesn't work. Look, I never said I was "God"...but does that make me "God".....Nope....

Only people saying that Jesus isn't God are those that no longer walked with Him as described in the Book of John and some people today that aren't Christians anyway.

This is wrong on so many levels. There are many very devout Christians from various denominations who reject the trinity. Just because they don't agree with you hardly puts you in the position to judge.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The purpose of the tree of life is God, for He alone is life. Who else can grant life save God?

Everything he was able to do he said it was his god that gave him the ability to do it.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came, and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and upon earth.

Yes, regardless of how many people want to argue the divinity of Jesus, it's OK, for when the time comes, they all shall see Him either while yet alive, as in like you and I, or for all others when their spirits depart their bodies.

Every knee, regardless, will bow at the feet of Jesus, not literately, but figuratively, meaning, that Jesus will be recognized as God.

But this is a theological debate. Scare tactics don't work here.

 

[Falcon]

Dirty Penguin, you wrote this , that no where in the Bible does Jesus say He God , you wrote ; "No he didn't unless you have an explicit quote from your bible where he did."
Then I ask you ,who are the three persons in God ? I will give you the following passage ;
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven : the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one " [ 1st. John 5 v 7 ]

Now I ask you to show me the "explicit verse or even an implicit verse " that proves your "solar Scriptura "?
Forget posting 2 Tim 3: 16-17 ,yes, of course all Scripture is inspired by God. but nowhere does it say anything about Scripture being the only'' One "absolute "rule " of Faith needed for Salvation.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Dirty Penguin, you wrote this , that no where in the Bible does Jesus say He God , you wrote ; "No he didn't unless you have an explicit quote from your bible where he did."
Then I ask you ,who are the three persons in God ? I will give you the following passage ;
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven : the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one " [ 1st. John 5 v 7 ]

1John 5:7 is not without its own controversy. Some see it as an interpolation considering it was not in the earlier manuscripts and did not make it onto the scene until the 5th century. It was undoubtedly "added" by a Christian scribe.

The oldest known script from the (Codex Sinaiticus) reads as thus....

1John 5:7-8
For they that testify are three, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.

So your verse is null and void and brings us back to the original point. Yeshua is not "God" nor was it something he taught his followers. Additionally the KJV along with a few other bible translations are horrible and filled with interpolations. Now, do you still feel as though your god inspired these men to blatantly lie?

Now I ask you to show me the "explicit verse or even an implicit verse " that proves your "solar Scriptura "?

Normally I try to stick with the words of the biblical Yeshua or those of his closest followers when in biblical theological debates so here we go.

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

John 8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

I'm sure there are plenty more but I think you get the point here. The biblical Yeshua, whether before being sent, while here on Earth or after he returned to heaven was a servant to his god whom he explicitly said he had.

Forget posting 2 Tim 3: 16-17 ,yes, of course all Scripture is inspired by God. but nowhere does it say anything about Scripture being the only'' One "absolute "rule " of Faith needed for Salvation.

But we're not talking about salvation. This thread is specifically about whether or not the biblical Yeshua said he was "God"....and so far your scriptures attributed as to what he supposedly said reveal he did not say to or teach his followers he was "God"

 

[idav]

John 8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

This verse is interesting and was wondering your take on it within the context of John 17:5. I suppose he's commanded to ask this?

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This verse is interesting and was wondering your take on it within the context of John 17:5. I suppose he's commanded to ask this?

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

I'm not sure contextually they're related. In John 8:50, at least in my view, the biblical Yeshua is saying....He didn't come to make himself the center of the message. I take this view in lieu of the context of chapter 8. The biblical Yeshua sought to deliver the message he was instructed to. He positioned himself by speaking on behalf of his god...as an ambassador would deliver a message to a foreign country.

John 8:45-50
And because I tell you the truth, you don't believe me. Which of you accuses me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God hears God's words. You therefore hear them not, because you are not of God. Then said the Jews to him, 'You are a Samaritan, and is possessed by a devil? Jesus answered, I have no devil in me but I honour my Father, and you do dishonor me. And though I have no wish to glorify myself, God wants to glorify me. Let him be the judge.

This is what it says to me when I read it in context.

 

[Shermana]

This verse is interesting and was wondering your take on it within the context of John 17:5. I suppose he's commanded to ask this?

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The Logos, as the Firsborn of Creation, pre-existed before the rest of Creation was made, and as the Prime Instrument and Pattern for replication of Creation and Man, the "tool" of the Father, he held great "glory" (honor) in the Heavens for this position.

I think there has been a deliberate attempt to detach all traces of Philo's "Logos Theology" from the history of the Book of John by the establishment in an attempt to cut it off from its initial context.

This explains easily the "Before Abraham came to be, I was".

 

[Shermana]

Dirty Penguin, you wrote this , that no where in the Bible does Jesus say He God , you wrote ; "No he didn't unless you have an explicit quote from your bible where he did."
Then I ask you ,who are the three persons in God ? I will give you the following passage ;
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven : the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one " [ 1st. John 5 v 7 ]

Now I ask you to show me the "explicit verse or even an implicit verse " that proves your "solar Scriptura "?
Forget posting 2 Tim 3: 16-17 ,yes, of course all Scripture is inspired by God. but nowhere does it say anything about Scripture being the only'' One "absolute "rule " of Faith needed for Salvation.

Yeah, look up the "Comma Johnanum", you will see that 1 John 5:7 was deliberately changed for the Latin and this only was accounted for in the Greek copies much much later. I'm assuming your Church or Pastor is King Jamse only-ist and never bothered to discuss this issue.

And the ironic thing about 2 Tim is that it's a pseudipgraph to begin with!

 

[Falcon]

No Church schlar any longer accepts its authenticity. [ Johannine Comma ] . But even though the "Comma "is not a biblical passage it is a firm witness to the fact that the faith of the [ early ] Christians was fully Trinitarian.

 

[Protester]

Strange, from all the inferences you should be able to make from the very first message left on this thread, you should come to the conclusion that Jesus said he was God.

By the way,
Websters 1913 Dictionary (excerpt)

Inference, Conclusion. An inference is literally that which is brought in; and hence, a deduction or induction from premises, -- something which follows as certainly or probably true. A conclusion is stronger than an inference; it shuts us up to the result, and terminates inquiry. We infer what is particular or probable; we conclude what is certain. In a chain of reasoning we have many inferences, which lead to the ultimate conclusion. "An inference is a proposition which is perceived to be true, because of its connection with some known fact." "When something is simply affirmed to be true, it is called a proposition; after it has been found to be true by several reasons or arguments, it is called a conclusion." I. Taylor.

The Sandhedrin came to that conclusion

from the World English Bible (Public Domain)

Matthew 26

62The high priest stood up, and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?” 63But Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64Jesus said to him, "“You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”"

65Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy. 66What do you think?”

There is no "lower criticism" about those verses.

 

[Desert Snake]

No Church schlar any longer accepts its authenticity. [ Johannine Comma ] . But even though the "Comma "is not a biblical passage it is a firm witness to the fact that the faith of the [ early ] Christians was fully Trinitarian.

You'll find that people have radically different definitions of "trinitarian" on rf, you'll most likely have to ask each person debating what their idea of it is.

 

[Shermana]

Strange, from all the inferences you should be able to make from the very first message left on this thread, you should come to the conclusion that Jesus said he was God.

By the way,
Websters 1913 Dictionary (excerpt)


The Sandhedrin came to that conclusion

from the World English Bible (Public Domain)

Matthew 26

62The high priest stood up, and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?” 63But Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64Jesus said to him, "“You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”"

65Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy. 66What do you think?”

There is no "lower criticism" about those verses.

I wholly disagree, I think the conclusion one should come to is that Trinitarians warp and mutiliate the grammar and context and are generally unfamiliar with the "Logos Theology" of Philo which John's intended audience was well acquainted with.

Also, an understanding of what exactly is "Blasphemy" and the meaning of the word "god" and whether the Jews were correct in their accusations. Such as why Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34. Also, the meaning of words like "Right hand of power". Only a Trinitarian could interpret Jesus as being his own right hand.

Also, it helps to actually understand what "Christ" means. I believe few actually acknowledge Jesus as Christ, as opposed to merely saying the words. Hard to acknowledge someone as "Christ" when you're saying he's G-d incarnate. Basically translates to: "The definition of Anointed One does not actually matter."

 

[Shermana]

No Church schlar any longer accepts its authenticity. [ Johannine Comma ] . But even though the "Comma "is not a biblical passage it is a firm witness to the fact that the faith of the [ early ] Christians was fully Trinitarian.

It's a firm witness to the faith of some of the early Trinitarians who tried to rig the Bible to suit their demands during the Arian debates perhaps. It's a firm witness to how some of the Latin speakers changed the Bible in places where the Greek did not match.

How do you base your conclusion that the Comma shows that "Early Christians" were Fully Trinitarian? What context do you mean? That the believers in the Latin after a certain date were Fully Trinitarian?

The definition of "Early" Christians is like the definition of the word "Species", it can be used in ways which aren't exactly as definitive they should be. The "Early Christians" can be the Pre-Tertullian Christians too, and they showed no evidence of the Trinity. I think there should be a reclassification of what constitutes "Early" Christianity, 2nd century, and 3rd century. The "Early Christians" were mostly Ebionites and Nazarenes until the end of the 1st century.

 

[look3467]

There's a difference between demanding someone do it and pointing out to them that they need to do it. Forgiveness is only achieved by repentance and showing it through deeds. And that involves not sinning. One cannot just sin and expect to be forgiven for it as an excuse, so therefore one must strive to not sin, and also to know what is sin and what is not.

..."There's a difference between demanding someone do it and pointing out to them that they need to do it"...
You are correct. But the "need to" becomes a matter of choice rather or else a demand.

The "choice to" is what God seeks; for only then will their be a serious attempt to live just and right.
As for not sinning, that is an impossibility.

The only perfection we have, even in our sinning, is the non-sinning works of Christ.

If you take Gods righteousness out of the equation, then our righteousness would have to count.

Attempting to justify our salvation by our righteous works, not sinning, denies the righteous works of God as His gift to us.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

Do you understand what "righteousness" means?

Attempting to justify our salvation by our righteous works, not sinning, denies the righteous works of God as His gift to us.

Well then, I assume you ripped James out of your Bible, and all the passages where Paul says you actually have to do good works.

"Show your repentance with works".

"Justified BY Works".

 

[look3467]

Do you understand what "righteousness" means?



Well then, I assume you ripped James out of your Bible, and all the passages where Paul says you actually have to do good works.

"Show your repentance with works".

"Justified BY Works".

I haven't articulated my views well enough to show you the difference between God's righteousness and ours.

Our righteousness solely demonstrates our position in relationship with God, as you want to argue, but has noting to do what's so ever with the works of God in Jesus in saving our souls.

Let's say you were in deep dept to where you had no means to pay to get out. And I came along and offered free you from your depth as a free gift.

Question, was it your doing that would free you out of depth or was it my doing that freed you?

It wouldn't matter whether you were a model prisoner or not, it was my choice to free you.

That is the difference I am talking about.

Sure, a believer does demonstrate, willingly by choice a change of attitude. (Termed repentance) But if not, still does not take away the fact that I, as in the case above, paid the price for your freedom.

If after you were freed, then you owe nothing to me except, I would encourage you to love me and your neighbor.

That is what God did for us, God worked in our behalf so that we didn't have to work for our salvation, for it was an impossibility.

We can find rest in Him from our attempts to work for our salvation.

When we rest in Jesus, we rest from our own works.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

Okay, so like I said, you must have completely ripped James out.