Muffled
Jesus in me
No. What I am saying is that in Jesus God is not a man; He is God. His essence does not change.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
No. What I am saying is that in Jesus God is not a man; He is God. His essence does not change.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The problem is that this is only good evidence if you accept the Bible. Unfortunately, there is great historical evidence that suggests none of the written accounts of miracles and sayings of Jesus were not first hand accounts--e.g., the writers of the gospels weren't actually "there".
Even if you hold that the bible is still true and accurate, you can at least see where non-Christians are coming from. Islamic apologetics websites have been publishing articles for ages that reject biblical divinity claims of Jesus, and the evidence they presents appears to me to be just as valid as the stuff you posted above.
Appearances are deceiving. They haven't posted any evidence here that holds water.
No doubt. However the Bible is the difintive source on Jesus. The Qu'ran contains a little information but it is scant at best and often misinterpreted. There are heretical works but they don't have the authenticity tht the Bible has.
That doesn't really matter because the accounts came from those who were first hand witnesses.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Gnostics were heretics. No doubt their writings are derivative but their conclusions don't fit the actual meanings in the Bible. The heresy is not so much against the teachings of the church as they are against the teaching of the Bible.
Yes. There is divinity in each born again Christian through the Paraclete but it is not equal to Jesus because we have a human spirit in us that tends to interfere with divinity but Jesus did not have a human spirit in Himself.
Using the Holy Bible,to show that there are three Persons in One God,- for it says; "go therefore , and make disciples of all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" [ Matthew 28v 19 ] [note singular word-" name"]
God the Father , God the Son and God the Holy Spirit - the three Persons of the Holy Trinity are equal- " For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one " [1st John 5v7 ]
God the Father , God the Son and God the Holy Spirit - the three Persons of the Holy Trinity are equal- " For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one " [1st John 5v7 ]
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And both of these are regarded by scholars as being Christian interpolations. Before Eusebius the verse (Matthew 28:19) was not quoted that way and we've already established 1John 5:7 has been modified.
This is pretty interesting. I don't agree with your first sentence but I almost agree with the last one. It isn't so much that they disagree with the teaching of the bible they just have other ideas that are not in the bible but can easily be reconciled. That is why interpretation is such a huge issue. Heresy is interpreting the bible "wrong".
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Yeshua wasn't the only one referred to as lord. The title was used as a sign of respect. The title can be seen upon men of authority in the Old Testament. Additionally titles such as (master, teacher or rabbi) were not exclusive titles bestowed upon Yeshua.
As far as the supposed scene with Yeshua and Satan....it poses a dilemma for those who believe Yeshua is "God". First I maintain that in that situation Yeshua was referring to his god and not himself.
Second, Lucifer knew "God" and there would have been no need to tempt Yeshua if he thought Yeshua was "God"....furthermore...how can one tempt a supposed omnipotent being that is suppose to exist outside of space and time and is regarded as the sole controller of all things in the universe? It, on a theological level, makes no sense at all. The whole exchange in Luke chapter 4 presents Yeshua as a protected servant of "God".
At one point the devil says to Yeshua that if he (Yeshua) worships him he will give Yeshua all these things. Now, why would the devil want "God" to worship him? There is no area of your bible where the devil wants his god to worship him. What we find is the opposite. So even the devil knew Yeshua was not "God"....
Shermana
Heretic
The word "Lord" is used for a great many people besides Jesus, and God.
Be careful to not fall in the trap of confusing the Greek "Kurio" with its use as a replacement for the Tetragrammaton.
Shermana
Heretic
1 Kings 3:26
New International Version (©1984)
The woman whose son was alive was filled with compassion for her son and said to the king, "Please, my lord, give her the living baby! Don't kill him!" But the other said, "Neither I nor you shall have him. Cut him in two!"
Who is the woman talking to when she says "My Lord"?
Shermana
Heretic
So when he says "The Son of man", that's just some fancy title that has no meaning?
Shermana
Heretic
I definitely agree with your last sentence.
For the most part, the later Gnostics like the Sethians and Cainites and Marcionites definitely were heretics, seeing Cain and the Serpent as the good guys and the entire Law and OT as evil. The early "Gnostics" like Cerinthus who weren't really "Gnostic" in the later non-Jewish sense is completely different.
Gnosticism, like Christianity, is divided into Originally Nomian and later, rebellious antinomian factions.
The Kabalists can be said to be the descendents of the original "Gnostics". Pythagorus is said to have gotten many of his philosophies from the Essenes.
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
It's because you really don't know your bible as much as you think you do. Luke chapter 4.....The devil does not think Yeshua is "God"......
If you read the chapter in context instead of quote mining the way you're doing then it makes sense why the devil did what he did. To assume the devil knew Yeshua is "God" makes no sense.
Penguin,it is you who must learn to comphehend Scripture correctly. Satan knows that God can't sin, that is why he, the devil, tried to tempt Jesus. If Jesus had succumbed , the devil would have known that Jesus wasn' t God.
Remember , that satan isn't God -he isn't omniscient or infallible.
Remember , that satan isn't God -he isn't omniscient or infallible.
Shermana
Heretic
So the Devil was testing Jesus to see if He was G-d, because no man, not even the Jewish Christ as he is written to be as a man, could possibly resist. The only way possible to refuse to bow down to the Devil in exchange for worldly power could be by being G-d himself, no one else possible.
That is the first time I've heard that one, got a link to back your claim that this says Jesus was being tested to see if he was G-d rather than to simply tempt him as a man?
That is the first time I've heard that one, got a link to back your claim that this says Jesus was being tested to see if he was G-d rather than to simply tempt him as a man?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And this makes no sense. The devil called him (son of God). He also made the assumption that if Yeshua threw himself off the mountain angels would protect him. No. He did not believe Yeshua to be "God". He viewed Yeshua as a servant of "God". He wanted Yeshua to now serve him but the biblical Yeshua didn't do it.
Luke 4:6-7
And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
If the devil even believed for a moment Yeshua was "God" then this would not even have come up. How can one give your god anything considering everything belongs to "God" in the first place. The devil would have known this better than anyone. The devil knew "God" seeing as though he is regarded as one of the fallen angels.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to stand before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to stand before the LORD.
No. The devil in Luke 4 did not think Yeshua was "God"......
Shermana, the following is in reference to your post # 3631
The Greek word kurios or "lord" can indeed be used to denote divinity but not necessarily so. In fact, an example of the latter is found in 1 Corinthians 8:5: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’ . . ." Here the term "lord" (kurios) is obviously not used to refer to divinity. Moreover, Christ himself refers to the "owner of the vineyard" in his parable of the householder in Matthew 21:33-40, as kurios, or "lord of the vineyard," in verse 40. Thus, kurios can be used specifically with regard to a human person. However, if we go back to 1 Corinthians 8:5, the next verse gives us an example of kurios being used with regard to divinity: "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." Notice two key points: Jesus is called both the one Lord and he is called creator of all things. There can be no doubt the context refers to our Lord’s divinity. Every Jew knew the truth of the great Sh’ma of Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." There is only one Lord in Israel. And according to 1 Corinthians, Jesus is that one Lord. Moreover, Jesus is called the creator of all things. Genesis 1:1 cannot make any clearer that it is almighty God who is the creator of all things. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The title kurios applied to Christ as creator of all things in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is clearly a title of divinity for Christ. It is the context that makes this so apparent.
information from Catholic Answers and The New American Bible
The Greek word kurios or "lord" can indeed be used to denote divinity but not necessarily so. In fact, an example of the latter is found in 1 Corinthians 8:5: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’ . . ." Here the term "lord" (kurios) is obviously not used to refer to divinity. Moreover, Christ himself refers to the "owner of the vineyard" in his parable of the householder in Matthew 21:33-40, as kurios, or "lord of the vineyard," in verse 40. Thus, kurios can be used specifically with regard to a human person. However, if we go back to 1 Corinthians 8:5, the next verse gives us an example of kurios being used with regard to divinity: "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." Notice two key points: Jesus is called both the one Lord and he is called creator of all things. There can be no doubt the context refers to our Lord’s divinity. Every Jew knew the truth of the great Sh’ma of Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." There is only one Lord in Israel. And according to 1 Corinthians, Jesus is that one Lord. Moreover, Jesus is called the creator of all things. Genesis 1:1 cannot make any clearer that it is almighty God who is the creator of all things. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The title kurios applied to Christ as creator of all things in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is clearly a title of divinity for Christ. It is the context that makes this so apparent.
information from Catholic Answers and The New American Bible
Shermana
Heretic
This is a misinterpretation of the "Logos Theology" of Philo which Paul and John's readers were well familiar with, indeed, it was through the Logos that all things were made. The Father however was the Overseer.
That the angels were involved in Creation with the "Let us" was ancient Jewish Theology that the Church tried to sweep aside. There's a reason they rarely mention Philo.
The very use of the word "Creator" can cause problems without this understanding.
"Wisdom" was the First made thing, and by "Wisdom" was all things made as said in Proverbs.
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Dirty Penguin:
Romans 1
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
This would really be as bad as a quotation from Shirley McLane!
Romans 1
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.