Did Jesus say he was God???

[Mark2020]

Actually you will find the divinity of Jesus was hot debated at the time. Around 300 AD emperor Nero ...

Nero in 300 AD?!!
Are you referring to the Emperor or to Nero software?

 

[waitasec]

Nero in 300 AD?!!
Are you referring to the Emperor or to Nero software?

now that is embarrassing...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Of course you'll follow in Shormanas steps calling all translators in all languages bad.

Nope..which is why I gave multiple translations that do not indicate that Yeshua is "God" in 9:5 given the context of 9:1-4.

 

[Bob Dixon]

It surprises me to see some churches still using known additions.

So you also don't accept Mark 16:9-20, then.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

check your verse reference and its Greek and the Codex Sinaticus, and tell me where you got these commas from.

Are you serious? Your objections to the translation of your oldest bible is the fact that the translators inserted comas after translating from Greek to English?

Codex Sinaiticus
whose are the fathers, and from whom is Christ according to the flesh: who is over all, God blessed for ever, Amen.

There's nothing wrong with the translation. It is in fact how many scholars have translated that verse. There's nothing there to suggest Yeshua is "God" but everything to suggest "God" blessed Yeshua.

 

[Mark2020]

Nope..which is why I gave multiple translations that do not indicate that Yeshua is "God" in 9:5 given the context of 9:1-4.

Are you serious? Your objections to the translation of your oldest bible is the fact that the translators inserted comas after translating from Greek to English?

Codex Sinaiticus
whose are the fathers, and from whom is Christ according to the flesh: who is over all, God blessed for ever, Amen.
...

There is nothing wrong with the translations that you gave. In fact Codex Sinaiticus is exactly like the majority text in this part. I don't know why you quoted it. It doesn't have commas by the way.
You still didn't try to discuss it in Greek.

I'll explain the difference between the English translations. Here is the diagram of the last part of the verse:

Here θεος is predicate. An alternative would be to take θεος as appositive rather than as predicate, which would yield the rendering of several versions, “Who is over all, God blessed for ever.” This too refers to Christ as God.

but everything to suggest "God"blessed Yeshua.

No, it doesn't work in Greek this way.

 

[Mark2020]

(Romans 9:5 [NIV])
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

I think this is the easiest and most straightforward way to understand it:

(Romans 9:5 [AraSVDV]) وَلَهُمُ الآبَاءُ، وَمِنْهُمُ الْمَسِيحُ حَسَبَ الْجَسَدِ، الْكَائِنُ عَلَى الْكُلِّ إِلهًا مُبَارَكًا إِلَى الأَبَدِ. آمِينَ.
"who is over all God who is blessed forever."
"God" is predicate.
"who is blessed" is an adjective.

This agrees with Coptic:
(Romans 9:5 [CopticB]) ⲛⲏ ⲉⲧⲉ `ⲛⲟⲩⲟⲩ ⲛⲉ ⲛⲓⲓⲟϯ ⲟⲩⲟϩ `ⲛⲑⲱⲟⲩ ⲟⲛ ⲁ ⲡ̅ⲭ̅ⲥ `ⲓ `ⲉⲃⲟⲗ `ⲛϧⲏⲧⲟⲩ ⲕⲁⲧⲁ ⲥⲁⲣⲝ ⲫⲏ ⲉⲧⲭⲏ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲛⲓⲃⲉⲛ ⲫϯ ⲉⲧ`ⲥⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ ϣⲁ ⲉⲛⲉϩ ⲁⲙⲏⲛ
where in ⲫϯ ⲉⲧ`ⲥⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ: ⲉⲧ`ⲥⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ (blessed/praised) is an adjective to ⲫϯ (God)

Same in Greek:
(Romans 9:5 [TR])
ων οι πατερες και εξ ων ο χριστος το κατα σαρκα ο ων επι παντων θεος ευλογητος εις τους αιωνας αμην

You will also note that in θεος ευλογητος, ευλογητος is an adjective.

I'll also give Younan's interlinear of the Pe****ta:
(Romans 9:5 [Pe****ta]) ܘܐܒܗܬܐ ܘܡܢܗܘܢ ܐܬܚܙܝ ܡܫܝܚܐ ܒܒܤܪ ܕܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܐܠܗܐ ܕܥܠ ܟܠ ܕܠܗ ܬܫܒܚܢ ܘܒܘܪܟܢ ܠܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܐܡܝܢ ܀
& the patriarchs / & from them / appeared / The Messiah / in the flesh / Who is / The God / Who is over / all / to Whom are / praises / & blessings / to the eternity / of eternities / Amen
The Pe****ta here leaves no doubt, since God (ܐܠܗ&#1808 immediately succeeds verb to be (ܐܝܬܘܗ&#1821.

 

[Mark2020]

(Romans 9:5 [NIV]) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

But I think the quotes that I gave show how it was understood then.

"For better were it for them that their king should be Christ, of the seed of David, of the tribe of Judah. Nevertheless because Christ Himself is of the seed of David after the flesh, but God above all things blessed for ever" Augustin

"Already this hath come to pass, Christ hath risen up, "who is over all things, God blessed for ever," Augustin

How then was He of the root of Jesse? How was He a rod? how Son of man? how was Mary His mother? how was He of David's seed? how did he "take the form of a servant?" how "was the Word made flesh?" and how saith Paul to the Romans, "Of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is God over all?"
John Chrysostom

"Who is He Who made all things, and without Whom no existing thing does exist? Who is He in Whom all things were created, and in Whom all things that are have their continuance? In Whom do we live and move and have our being? Who is He Who hath in Himself all that the Father hath? Does what has been said leave us any longer in ignorance of Him Who is "God over all" " Gregory of Nyssa

Now, can you see this:



"Moreover, he expressly called Christ God, saying: “Of whom are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.”" Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD)



I only picked quotes that aren't exactly as the verse, to avoid the accusation of biased translation.
They all show that "God over all" refers to Jesus.

 

[cablescavenger]

hahah you are right. I was of course referring to Constantine and the council of Nicaea. Thank you for correcting me.

 

[JacobEzra.]

i was just surprised to see you using that verse really.

that verse is a known 'addition'... its not found in the Jeromes vulgate, but was added into the revision made by Clementine in the 15th century. It surprises me to see some churches still using known additions.

lol right.

And again, look whos talking

 

[Pegg]

So you also don't accept Mark 16:9-20, then.

we dont use it for teaching purposes, no.

but it is still included in the NWT in small font at the end of Vs8 along with a footnote which reads:Manuscript L 019 (Codex Regius of the eighth cent.) contains both long and short conclusions after vs 8, giving the short conclusion first and prefixing to each conclusion a note that says these passages are current in some quarters, while evidently not recognizing either conclusion as authoritative.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

we dont use it for teaching purposes, no.

but it is still included in the NWT in small font at the end of Vs8 along with a footnote which reads:Manuscript L 019 (Codex Regius of the eighth cent.) contains both long and short conclusions after vs 8, giving the short conclusion first and prefixing to each conclusion a note that says these passages are current in some quarters, while evidently not recognizing either conclusion as authoritative.

Correct. I don't even think it exist in Codex Sinaiticus either.

 

[Shermana]

(Romans 9:5 [NIV]) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

But I think the quotes that I gave show how it was understood then.

"For better were it for them that their king should be Christ, of the seed of David, of the tribe of Judah. Nevertheless because Christ Himself is of the seed of David after the flesh, but God above all things blessed for ever" Augustin

"Already this hath come to pass, Christ hath risen up, "who is over all things, God blessed for ever," Augustin

How then was He of the root of Jesse? How was He a rod? how Son of man? how was Mary His mother? how was He of David's seed? how did he "take the form of a servant?" how "was the Word made flesh?" and how saith Paul to the Romans, "Of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is God over all?"
John Chrysostom

"Who is He Who made all things, and without Whom no existing thing does exist? Who is He in Whom all things were created, and in Whom all things that are have their continuance? In Whom do we live and move and have our being? Who is He Who hath in Himself all that the Father hath? Does what has been said leave us any longer in ignorance of Him Who is "God over all" " Gregory of Nyssa

Now, can you see this:



"Moreover, he expressly called Christ God, saying: “Of whom are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.”" Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD)



I only picked quotes that aren't exactly as the verse, to avoid the accusation of biased translation.
They all show that "God over all" refers to Jesus.

You mentioned getting the Greek, I was going to ask YOU to get the Greek the first time you posted these ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS but I figured you'd shuck and jive on that. But I don't see why it would matter unless they quoted the verse differently.

Of course it probably means nothing to you that even if they did translate it the way you want it to read, it was well after 200 A.D. that these renditions come from. No need to examine the fact that its a controversial verse. Not the first time Trinitarians have mangled a verse to make it read as it doesn't actually say to support their doctrine. Not the first time Trinitarians try to sweep any mention of the controversy under the table and refuse to examine sources that say otherwise.

As it stands, the verse is in fact using an Anarthrous, as my links demonstrated. Switching from "a god" to "God" is a standard tactic especially employed by Bible.ca and such sites. I think I posted the link on the other Trinity thread that shows that the earlier fathers intended to use it as an Anarthrous, I shall post again here if you want to play like that.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There is nothing wrong with the translations that you gave. In fact Codex Sinaiticus is exactly like the majority text in this part. I don't know why you quoted it. It doesn't have commas by the way.

I posted a verse without the commas. Commas is not the issue. Your issue is really internal more than anything. A large proportion of Catholic bibles used have it translated as I've indicated and none of them give the impression Yeshua is "God" in that verse.

NAB (Widely use in the Catholic Church)
Romans 9:5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

Douay Rheims
Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

New Jerusalem Bible
To them belong the fathers and out of them, so far as physical descent is concerned, came Christ who is above all, God, blessed for ever. Amen.

RSV (Catholic Edition and Recommended)
to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen

​

Good News Translation (Catholic Edition)
They are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.

One particular note of interest is here concerning the NAB and how Romans 9:5 is viewed.

The New American Bible - IntraText
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

Their commentary on the verse is as followed.
" Some editors punctuate this verse differently and prefer the translation, "Of whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all." However, Paul's point is that God who is over all aimed to use Israel, which had been entrusted with every privilege, in outreach to the entire world through the Messiah."

scripture
Gives a commentary of chapter nine and at no time address Yeshua as "God" in regard to 9:5

 

[Mark2020]

You mentioned getting the Greek,...

Your usual desperate and poor arguments.
Those are new quotes, where the context of the quotes shows they all referred to Jesus as God .

And if you already forgot, you poor anarthrous argument is dead:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/121296-john-1-1-anarthrous-theos-big.html

To see how desperate this argument is, not even the NWT went for it. You look more desperate than them.

 

[Mark2020]

NAB (Widely use in the Catholic Church)
Romans 9:5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.
...

Again I say this is a poor translation to the verse. I already explained its Greek and I asked you to discuss the verse in Greek.
"God who is over all" is "ο επι παντων θεος", without ων.

Both of the following are correct, and they refer to Jesus as God. And I explained why in a previous post.
(Romans 9:5 [NIV])
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

(Romans 9:5 [KJV])
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

"Moreover, he expressly called Christ God, saying: “Of whom are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.”" Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD)

And as I mentioned, Coptic and Pe****ta support the same view.
No doubt is left from this one:
ܡܫܝܚܐ ܒܒܤܪ ܕܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܐܠܗܐ
The Messiah / in the flesh / Who is / The God

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Again I say this is a poor translation to the verse.

Not according to the Catholic church.

RSV (Catholic Edition and Recommended)
to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen

​

Good News Translation (Catholic Edition)
They are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.

"Some editors punctuate this verse differently and prefer the translation, "Of whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all." However, Paul's point is that God who is over all aimed to use Israel, which had been entrusted with every privilege, in outreach to the entire world through the Messiah."

Here's some food for thought. The rest of the NT seems to agree that "God" is the blessed one and not the Messiah.....

Mark 14:61
"Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One."

Romans 1:25
They changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed to the ages. Amen."

2: Corinthians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

2 Corinthians 11:31
"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ knows that I am not lying, he being blessed to the ages."

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[Mark2020]

Not according to the Catholic church.

Comparing English verses is useless since their Greek differs.
I said many times if you want to discuss it then do so in GREEK.

And I already explained why such translation isn't accurate.

 

[Mark2020]

So what do we have now?

(Romans 9:5 [NIV])
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

1) English translations

(Romans 9:5 [NIV])
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

(Romans 9:5 [KJV])
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(Romans 9:5 [ESV])
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(Romans 9:5 [NET]) To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.
(Romans 9:5 [LEB]) to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

2) Old translations

(Romans 9:5 [CopticB])
ⲛⲏ ⲉⲧⲉ `ⲛⲟⲩⲟⲩ ⲛⲉ ⲛⲓⲓⲟϯ ⲟⲩⲟϩ `ⲛⲑⲱⲟⲩ ⲟⲛ ⲁ ⲡ̅ⲭ̅ⲥ `ⲓ `ⲉⲃⲟⲗ `ⲛϧⲏⲧⲟⲩ ⲕⲁⲧⲁ ⲥⲁⲣⲝ ⲫⲏ ⲉⲧⲭⲏ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲛⲓⲃⲉⲛ ⲫϯ ⲉⲧ`ⲥⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ ϣⲁ ⲉⲛⲉϩ ⲁⲙⲏⲛ
where in ⲫϯ ⲉⲧ`ⲥⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ: ⲉⲧ`ⲥⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ (blessed/praised) is an adjective to ⲫϯ (God)
ⲡ̅ⲭ̅ⲥ: Christ
ⲁ ... `ⲓ `ⲉⲃⲟⲗ `ⲛϧⲏⲧⲟⲩ ⲕⲁⲧⲁ ⲥⲁⲣⲝ: came from them according to flesh
ⲫⲏ ⲉⲧⲭⲏ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲛⲓⲃⲉⲛ ⲫϯ: who is over all God
ⲉⲧ`ⲥⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ ϣⲁ ⲉⲛⲉϩ ⲁⲙⲏⲛ: blessed/praised (adjective) for ever amen

(Romans 9:5 [Pe****ta])
ܘܐܒܗܬܐ ܘܡܢܗܘܢ ܐܬܚܙܝ ܡܫܝܚܐ ܒܒܤܪ ܕܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܐܠܗܐ ܕܥܠ ܟܠ ܕܠܗ ܬܫܒܚܢ ܘܒܘܪܟܢ ܠܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܐܡܝܢ ܀
& the patriarchs / & from them / appeared / The Messiah / in the flesh / Who is / The God / Who is over / all / to Whom are / praises / & blessings / to the eternity / of eternities / Amen
The Pe****ta here leaves no doubt, since God (ܐܠܗ&#1808 immediately succeeds verb to be ܐܝܬܘܗܝ

3) Greek
(Romans 9:5 [TR])
ων οι πατερες και εξ ων ο χριστος το κατα σαρκα ο ων επι παντων θεος ευλογητος εις τους αιωνας αμην

Here θεος is predicate. An alternative would be to take θεος as appositive rather than as predicate, which would yield the rendering of several versions, “Who is over all, God blessed for ever.” This too refers to Christ as God.

4) Other Languages

(Romans 9:5 [Luther])
welcher auch sind die Väter, und aus welchen Christus herkommt nach dem Fleisch, der da ist Gott über alles, gelobt in Ewigkeit. Amen.

(Romans 9:5 [DarbyFR]) sont les pères, et desquels, selon la chair, est issus le Christ, qui est sur toutes choses Dieu béni éternellement. Amen!

(Romans 9:5 [IRB]) dei quali sono i padri, e dai quali è venuto, secondo la carne, il Cristo, che è sopra tutte le cose Dio benedetto in eterno. Amen.

(Romans 9:5 [R-Valera]) Cuyos son los padres, y de los cuales es Cristo según la carne, el cual es Dios sobre todas las cosas, bendito por los siglos. Amén.

(Romans 9:5 [AraSVDV]) وَلَهُمُ الآبَاءُ، وَمِنْهُمُ الْمَسِيحُ حَسَبَ الْجَسَدِ، الْكَائِنُ عَلَى الْكُلِّ إِلهًا مُبَارَكًا إِلَى الأَبَدِ. آمِينَ.

All refer to Christ as God.

5) Old Quotes

"For better were it for them that their king should be Christ, of the seed of David, of the tribe of Judah. Nevertheless because Christ Himself is of the seed of David after the flesh, but God above all things blessed for ever" Augustin

"Already this hath come to pass, Christ hath risen up, "who is over all things, God blessed for ever," Augustin

How then was He of the root of Jesse? How was He a rod? how Son of man? how was Mary His mother? how was He of David's seed? how did he "take the form of a servant?" how "was the Word made flesh?" and how saith Paul to the Romans, "Of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is God over all?"
John Chrysostom

"Who is He Who made all things, and without Whom no existing thing does exist? Who is He in Whom all things were created, and in Whom all things that are have their continuance? In Whom do we live and move and have our being? Who is He Who hath in Himself all that the Father hath? Does what has been said leave us any longer in ignorance of Him Who is "God over all" " Gregory of Nyssa

"Moreover, he expressly called Christ God, saying: “Of whom are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.”" Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD)

"Whose are the fathers, and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed for ever." Irenaeus

"of whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is God over all, blessed for evermore" Cyprian

All simply support this:
(Romans 9:5 [NIV]) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

and "He who has an ear, let him hear."

 

[Shermana]

"Moreover, he expressly called Christ God, saying: “Of whom are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.”" Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD)

Can we get the exact Greek for Tertullian here? I have a strong suspicion it's an Anarthrous here.