Did Jesus say he was God???

waitasec · Feb 12, 2012

Godobeyer said:
every Messanger or Prophet from GOD declared for him self .

so khalid sheikh mohammed was a prophet?

URAVIP2ME · Feb 12, 2012

idav said:
Paul said to call himself father. Catholics followed suit.

Please post Scripture where Paul says to call him father?________________

idav · Feb 14, 2012

URAVIP2ME said:
Please post Scripture where Paul says to call him father?________________

Paul indicates he is like a father.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 16, 2012

idav said:
Paul indicates he is like a father.

Yes, 'like a father' Not that Paul is the Father, or to call or title him 'father'.
- Galatians 4v19; 1st Thess. 2v11

Just as John was also 'like a father' with spiritual children.
-see 3nd John verse 4

waitasec · Feb 16, 2012

URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, 'like a father' Not that Paul is the Father, or to call or title him 'father'.
- Galatians 4v19; 1st Thess. 2v11

Just as John was also 'like a father' with spiritual children.
-see 3nd John verse 4

Definition of LIKE

1a : the same or nearly the same (as in appearance, character, or quantity) <suits of like design> formerly used with as, unto, of <it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren Heb 2:17(Authorized Version)>
b chiefly British : closely resembling the subject or original <the portrait is very like>

Like - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

mental gymnastics are impressive... :facepalm:

waitasec · Feb 16, 2012

waitasec said:
so khalid sheikh mohammed was a prophet?

yeah that's what i thought...

i remain unimpressed.

Muffled · Feb 16, 2012

waitasec said:
you think you are the only one who assumes that?
which is why there is an array of interpretations...
:areyoucra

I do not make assumptions; I state fact.

That is an assumption. Interpretations may come because some think they have the Holy Spirit when they don't but my guess is that the majority come from those who are using their own minds without guidance from the Holy Spirit.

waitasec · Feb 16, 2012

Muffled said:
I do not make assumptions; I state fact.

if it is a fact prove it...

That is an assumption. Interpretations may come because some think they have the Holy Spirit when they don't but my guess is that the majority come from those who are using their own minds without guidance from the Holy Spirit.

:biglaugh:
and you are above that?

that is hysterical.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 16, 2012

waitasec said:
:biglaugh:
and you are above that?

that is hysterical.

Which is a big reason I don't even respond to those that say they "have the holy spirit"....

Muffled · Feb 16, 2012

Shermana said:
Well you're wrong, because the word for "Good Shepherd" is different. Obviously whatever "Spirit" is telling you these things is a bit confused on the actual Greek.

And what about "Good soldier"? You cannot just use the same word for "Good" in English to denote different concepts in Greek to support your argument.

You have it backwards, it's two different words in Greek with the same word in English being used. Doesn't work.

That makes no sense.

Your argument here is a total non-sequitur, G-d doesn't have to do everything you want him to do to be a "good G-d". While your point may be that everyone has their idea of what makes G-d "good", that's not the point whatsoever here.

No, that's not at all the context of what Jesus is saying there. Total dodge. The word "good" you used to describe that Jesus is calling himself G-d, you allow him to use different words for "good" to suit your point, now when Jesus says there are "good" people, but you won't let that same other word for "good" mean it. Likewise, Jesus uses the same word for "good" in "good Teacher" in a Parable of the Master and the Servants, for each of the servants who is profitable. By your logic, Jesus would be saying the servants each represented G-d.

So then, retract your point about the use of "I am the good shepherd" being the same kind of "good" as if that's a proof text for your point.

I told you before that I don't know the Greek. However even though it is two different words the transaltion is one word "good". What the Holy Spirit tells me about it then does not depend on what the Greek words are but on how God views it.

Good soldier is like good carpenter; it does not denote good person. I would see good policeman as good person because the policeman must not only be good at his duties but also must protect the good and restrain evil. However even a policeman would never say I am THE good policeman. Jesus claims not to be a good shepherd but THE good shepherd.

And that is exactly what Christianity is all about.

I don't suppose you are telling me to do this because Jesus told you to tell me that, so I will follow Jesus and not retract it.

Muffled · Feb 16, 2012

Godobeyer said:
every Messanger or Prophet from GOD declared for him self .

Jesus (pbuh) declared him self from the first day when he was baby spoke the people and defend for his mother , and tell the people that he is a messanger of God , that why the people and the jews did not try to kill Marry (pbuh) (his mother) innocent !!!.(for the sin of Adultery) (btw this story told by God in the Quran).
in ancient law of the jews the woman which found guilty by adultery, should be killed !!!
why the jews could not kill her , if they were certainly sure that she is adutlty

However every true prophet of God had signs provided by God in support of the prophet.

It was not considered adultery because Joseph married Mary. Everyone would have assumed the child was fathered by Joseph.

Shermana · Feb 16, 2012

I told you before that I don't know the Greek. However even though it is two different words the transaltion is one word "good". What the Holy Spirit tells me about it then does not depend on what the Greek words are but on how God views it.

I do not believe the Holy Spirit tells you anything, especially when what you think it says flies in the face of the language itself, and you may in fact be guilty of the unforgivable sin by attributing something to it that is not true. Let this be a lesson to the rest.

Good soldier is like good carpenter; it does not denote good person. I would see good policeman as good person because the policeman must not only be good at his duties but also must protect the good and restrain evil. However even a policeman would never say I am THE good policeman. Jesus claims not to be a good shepherd but THE good shepherd.

The article doesn't matter, different word for good is all that matters.

And that is exactly what Christianity is all about.

Not at all, Christianity is about emulating Jesus and obeying Torah.

I don't suppose you are telling me to do this because Jesus told you to tell me that, so I will follow Jesus and not retract it.

Likewise, I don't think the Holy Spirit tells you anything, especially when you are arguing with basic language and word differences, and if anything if you are hearing things, I would say it's of a demonic sort.

InChrist · Feb 17, 2012

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it .John 1:1-5

[FONT=&quot]And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [FONT=&quot]Jesus[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for He will save His people from their sins. Matthew 1:21[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I, even I, am the [FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thus says the [FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of hosts:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I, even I, am the LORD [YAHWEH]; and beside me there is no Savior. Isaiah 43:11
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do not fear, nor be afraid;[FONT=&quot] Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one. Isaiah 44:8[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:1-5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. John 10:30-33[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Titus:2:13
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then he said to me, Write: Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb! And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev. 19:9-10[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him. Matthew 2:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36[/FONT]

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39

[FONT=&quot]Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. [FONT=&quot]John 8:24 [/FONT][/FONT]

ankarali · Feb 17, 2012

According to islamic ressources Jesus was a prophet and not the God (or the son of God).

Jehovah Witnessess also had the same idea.

Jesus was born without a father it is a miracle of God. Jesus had other miracles also and his miracles were in medicine area because people in his time was very busy in medecine. Jesus revitalized two deads

ryanam · Feb 17, 2012

600 pages worth of people arguing about a man who's existence is not proven by any substantial evidence.

Brilliant.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 17, 2012

ryanam said:
600 pages worth of people arguing about a man who's existence is not proven by any substantial evidence.

Brilliant.

One of the points displayed in this thread is that all coming to the discussion accept, for the sake or arguing, that Yeshua (Jesus) existed. I personally have my doubts he did but what is evident is that a "believer" does not. So to engage in a theological discussion with some theist here is to accept that Yeshua existed. Now that all parties agree then the debate can move from that point to something else such as (Did Jesus Say He Was God). We already have and had plenty of threads dealing with the supposed historical Yeshua but that's not with this thread focuses on.

idav · Feb 17, 2012

URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, 'like a father' Not that Paul is the Father, or to call or title him 'father'.
- Galatians 4v19; 1st Thess. 2v11

Just as John was also 'like a father' with spiritual children.
-see 3nd John verse 4

Yes and Jesus says call no man your father. I'm certain Jesus wasn't talking about biological fathers but rather spiritual fathers.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 17, 2012

InChrist said:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it .John 1:1-5

[FONT=&quot]And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [FONT=&quot]Jesus[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for He will save His people from their sins. Matthew 1:21[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I, even I, am the [FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thus says the [FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of hosts:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I, even I, am the LORD [YAHWEH]; and beside me there is no Savior. Isaiah 43:11
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do not fear, nor be afraid;[FONT=&quot] Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one. Isaiah 44:8[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:1-5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. John 10:30-33[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Titus:2:13
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then he said to me, Write: Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb! And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev. 19:9-10[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him. Matthew 2:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36[/FONT]

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39

[FONT=&quot]Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. [FONT=&quot]John 8:24 [/FONT][/FONT]

:faint: None of this is evidence Yeshua is "God".....Your post is almost as bad as Muffeld's OP.......

Shermana · Feb 17, 2012

Gotta love when people just repost things that have all been debunked more than three times each on the same thread. It's like a heavily damaged Kamikaze trying to hit the boat after taking a beating from the Flak.

InChrist said:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it .John 1:1-5

"Word was "a god". Do I have to get into it again? Anarthrous Theon. And if I have to get into that again, I think I'll just repost what I said earlier about it. "Elohim" and "gods" are translated as "Angels" especially in the Septuagint. Did Jacob wrestle with G-d or an angel? All things made "through". See "Wisdom" as the personified Co-creator in Proverbs, Wisdom of Solomon, Philo, and Apocryphal writings. Are you even aware of what the ancient pre-100 A.D. Jewish concept of "The word" was? It was the incarnation of Wisdom. Which was the first created being. Which was the Highest of the angels.

[FONT="]And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [FONT="]Jesus[/FONT][FONT="], for He will save His people from their sins.” Matthew 1:21[/FONT][/FONT]

That's supposed to be a Trinitarian verse? Oh, the "savior thing", got it. You can tell they haven't read Obadiah when they try pulling this one.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]I, even I, am the [FONT="]Lord[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11[/FONT]

Once again, see Obadiah 1:21, the Savior sends saviors.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the LORD’s.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]“Thus says the [FONT="]Lord[/FONT][FONT="], the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the [/FONT][FONT="]Lord[/FONT][FONT="] of hosts:[/FONT][FONT="] I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]“I, even I, am the LORD [YAHWEH]; and beside me there is no Savior.” — Isaiah 43:11 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Same thing, you clearly have not read Obadiah. As for there being no other G-d, there is no other THE god, there is no other "god of the gods", but there are obviously other "gods" for Him to be "god of the gods". Isaiah is vastly misinterpreted, as is the concept of "gods".
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]Do not fear, nor be afraid;[FONT="] Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’ Isaiah 44:8[/FONT][/FONT]

Yet he is called "god of the gods" in Psalm 136:2 (which I notice most Trinitarians have not read either). There is no THE God other than THE God.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:1-5[/FONT]

So if you want to play games with the word "Rock", is Peter G-d now? Do you worship Peter as G-d? You'd have to by this logic.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:30-33[/FONT]

Should read "You a mere man, make yourself to be a god", Anarthrous Theon. Like John 1:1.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ….” Titus:2:13

The word "And" does not mean the same thing, otherwise you'll have to prove it always means the same person when describing two people in other verses. A very common misuse of grammar. It's referring to two beings.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Rev. 19:9-10[/FONT]

That's because they are of equal rank. Meanwhile, David was worshiped.

[FONT=&quot] “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him….” — Matthew 2:11[/FONT]

[FONT="]

So was David G-d too when people fell down and worshiped him? Are there different ways of worshiping? Explain how. If you don't think David was worshiped, see 1 Chron 29:20 (oh yeah, I notice most Trinitairans haven't read Chronicles either)
[/FONT]

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.

Click to expand...

[FONT="]“And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God.” — John 20:28 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

We've been over this one, and in addition, my question has been asked several times, never been answered, why does this verse clash with the endings of Matthew and Luke? Where did the Disciples actually meet Jesus? I posted a link to Bernard Muller showing how John originally ended at 20:10 and everything after is a series of interpolated add ons. If you disagree, kindly state where the Disciples first met Jesus: In a Locked room in Jerusalem,, in the mountain, or Galilee, and explain how to fit them together. Otherwise, it looks like Bernard was right.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36[/FONT]

That's not a Trinitarian proof text whatsoever.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39

That's supposed to be a proof text that Jesus claims to be G-d? He's referring to the parts that refer to Moshiach. Have you even read the parts that describe the Moshiach like in Isaiah? Most Trinitarians haven't.....like most of the OT....

[FONT="]Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” [FONT="]John 8:24 [/FONT][/FONT]

[/quote]First off, Context. Who is Jesus saying he is? Are you ignoring the rest of the preceding verses? Yes you are. Second, the name is not really "I am" like the Trinitarians like to think, but it is "I shall be", as the early Septuagints attest.

That was fun, it was like repeating almost all of the posts that were already repeated all over again but in condensed form to counter one last desparate run through. Figuring it won't be long, so I'll just have this bookmarked for an easy copy and paste.

Muffled · Feb 25, 2012

ankarali said:
According to islamic ressources Jesus was a prophet and not the God (or the son of God).

Jehovah Witnessess also had the same idea.

Jesus was born without a father it is a miracle of God. Jesus had other miracles also and his miracles were in medicine area because people in his time was very busy in medecine. Jesus revitalized two deads

This is according to currently held thought but I believe it to be a misinterpretation.

Every once in a while a JW gets a good idea. This isn't one of them.

Did Jesus say he was God???

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