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Did Jesus say he was God???

Muffled

Jesus in me
I think that we all are debating here. You and others like you have your view and I have mine. We come together in this forum and lay these views out thus a debate is started.

I have been here pretty much from the beginning and I'm still here. I have probably commented on this issue more than anyone else here. Your assesment seems to be a little off the mark.

Yeshua isn't God......why.....????......Because he shows us he isn't.....This is all in the scripture....

Find me in either of the 4 books where he says he is God....It is you who have given vague quotes to suggest he is but when read in their full context.....YES...FULL...context Yeshua says nothing of the sort. He's not equal to God because he flat out says he isn't......NOW......Where's your proof that he is....??

Can you give me a clear proof out of the 4 books where Yeshua says he is God because I haven't found it yet.

That's weird because I went above his head and asked God if Yeshua was God in the flesh and he told me that was nonsense.......He pointed me to the scripture proving they were one in purpose but not one in the same.......

You might want to ask God instead.......

I post my evidence and you post yours but a debate only ensues if you can somehow find holes in the evidence. I find lots of holes in yours but when I do you don't try to defend your evidence.

I applaud your faithfulness. You are beginning to feel like an old friend.

This is just repetition on your part. You haven't explained how any of those scriptures prove your point but I have shown how those scriptures could not prove your point.

We have been over this before and I did provide you with the context, where are you now with that?

For me Jesus and God are one. Perhaps you could describe the process by which God points out something unreasonable to you. I always find Him reasonable myself.

I get this God talks to me thing from the Mormons too. They tell me that God told them that Smith discovered the book of Mormon written on gold tablets but God told me it was written by a contemporary of Smith. Until the Mormon church releases the tablets for translation no one will know for sure but I have heard that there was an author who claimed that Smith plagiarized his work of fiction into the book of Mormon.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
Jesus is most definitely God manifest in the flesh. If He wasn't, the He's no different the any one of those religious crackpots claiming to be apostles or messiahs.

Proof from scripture: the only proof that matters-

Isaiah 9:6 -They shall call His (Jesus') name the mighty God
John 1:1 -The Word was with God and the Word was God
Psalm 110:1, Matthew 23:43-44 -Jesus asks, citing Psalm 110, why does David call Jesus (Jesus is his earth grandson) my Lord?"
Isaiah 7:14 -And the shall call His (Jesus') name Imanuel: meaning God with us
John 10:30 -I and my Father are one
John 8:58 -before Abraham was I Am (He claims to be I am who, in Exodus, is God)
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I post my evidence and you post yours but a debate only ensues if you can somehow find holes in the evidence. I find lots of holes in yours but when I do you don't try to defend your evidence.

It is assumed by you and others like you that Yeshua is God. This is one of those age old debates that have gone on way before you and I were born. You said the question was raised to you was Yeshua God. It was fine that you gave no commentary but decided to post chapter and verse and said it was overwhelming. The truth of the matter is it wasn't. All of those verses when read from the beginning and beyond describes nothing of Yeshua being the "One" or being a god.......

We get that you believe that Yeshua is God....But really, beyond what you believe you haven't given proof. You've given opinion. Sometimes at the end of conversations with christians they start to use the "God can do anything" remarks (as you did). Even that isn't proof that God became God in the flesh. It's not that God can't do what you suggest. There's no information that he did. The only information that I have found to that is from the (commentary) - (opinion) of the writer of the book of John who says "and the word was God"..."and the word was made flesh".If we are to except this opinion what does he mean by the word. I believe he is talking about Yeshua bringing God's word. God's word was made flesh (commanded of Yesshua what he should say) or when he said the words you hear are not mine.....

John 17:14
I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

Yeshua says...."I by the finger of God....", "He sent me", "He taught me", "He commanded me", "MY God, MY God why have YOU", "I have finished the task YOU GAVE ME"........"MY God and YOUR GOD".......

With thease statements....and PLENTY more.....we can not "ASSUME" Yeshua is God......

This is just repetition on your part. You haven't explained how any of those scriptures prove your point but I have shown how those scriptures could not prove your point.



Of course it is repetition because for some people to get it "it" has to be repeated. And I have explained it. My position is clear. They prove my point just fine. The quotes are direct and straight to the point. Yours are vague and have nothing to do with him being God, claiming to be God or claiming to be equal to the God........And in truth you nor ANY christian can disprove my point.


We have been over this before and I did provide you with the context, where are you now with that?

You have provided no context to where Yeshua claims to be God.


For me Jesus and God are one.

I totally agree. That can be found in the books direct from Yeshua. But the onenes he spoke of was of purpose and never one in the same.

John 17:11
And now I (Yeshua) am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.
Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as (we) are.



John 17:23,
And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as (we) are one:
I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.


 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Jesus is most definitely God manifest in the flesh. If He wasn't, the He's no different the any one of those religious crackpots claiming to be apostles or messiahs.

Proof from scripture: the only proof that matters-

Isaiah 9:6 -They shall call His (Jesus') name the mighty God
John 1:1 -The Word was with God and the Word was God
Psalm 110:1, Matthew 23:43-44 -Jesus asks, citing Psalm 110, why does David call Jesus (Jesus is his earth grandson) my Lord?"
Isaiah 7:14 -And the shall call His (Jesus') name Imanuel: meaning God with us
John 10:30 -I and my Father are one
John 8:58 -before Abraham was I Am (He claims to be I am who, in Exodus, is God)

You're misquoting Isaiah, you know.

You're leaving out the initial words of the first verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of John
The quotes from John chapter eight and 10 are out of context.

Try reading the thread--nothin you posted has been missed prior to your appearance.

Regards,

Scott
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
If He wasn't, the He's no different the any one of those religious crackpots claiming to be apostles or messiahs.

What makes you believe that the other Messengers of God are crackpots? Have you cared to do any research on other religions and their founders? If you would have done so, you would have seen that they all preach a message of love for mankind and of God. Remember that there is only ONE God, the One to whom Jesus pleaded and prayed to continuously. Do the other Messengers of God pass the "fruits" test given by Jesus? If so, then there is no reason for you to call them crackpots, is there?

“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.”
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
You're misquoting Isaiah, you know.

Well, there's a supreme problem with that statement because I wasn't quoting. I was summarizing.

This is me quoting:

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." -Isaiah 7:14

Now, "a virgin shall conceive and bear a son", it says. That's Mary. "...and she shal call His (that's Jesus) name Immanuel" -Immanuel means "God with us".

What, do you think, does that imply.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" -Isaiah 9:6

"The Mighty God"? Why would the scriptures say that?

Maybe it's because He is the mighty God.

You're leaving out the initial words of the first verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of John

Once again, I wasn't quoting.

This is what it says:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"

Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God.

Later in verse 14:

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth"

Jesus claimed to be God, the Scriptures say He was God: He was God.

The quotes from John chapter eight and 10 are out of context.

Tell me how. You see, I give scripture to support my assertion.

Afford me the same courtesey.

The problem with you telling me how is that I haven't.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The overall point is that, since Jesus claimed to be God, He'd better be God because if He wasn't, the Pharisees had every right to want to stone Him. Why? Because if He wasn't God, He'd be blaspheming, and the penalty for that in the Levitical law was death by stoning.

If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then there is no way (from your perspective) that we could be saved.
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then there is no way (from your perspective) that we could be saved.

Did I miss something from my reading of the Bible? From my perusing of the Holy Book, I never found where Jesus or even Paul said that one must believe Jesus to be God to be saved? Is it there? I seriously cannot find it.

With regards to why they would want to kill Jesus, it is quite simple really. He posed a serious threat to the leaders of Judaism. Whenever a Messenger does arise to bring forth a God-given message, they are sought after for death. People do not like change. When a man comes and speaks on behalf of God telling the leaders of Judaism that change must occur, the leaders are going to naturally go against the message and seek after the dealth penalty. It has happened before and will probably happen again....
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
Did I miss something from my reading of the Bible? From my perusing of the Holy Book, I never found where Jesus or even Paul said that one must believe Jesus to be God to be saved? Is it there? I seriously cannot find it.

The point is; how can a man die for your sins?

With regards to why they would want to kill Jesus, it is quite simple really. He posed a serious threat to the leaders of Judaism.

If Jesus wasn't God, the reasons the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him are really quite just.

Whenever a Messenger does arise to bring forth a God-given message, they are sought after for death. People do not like change. When a man comes and speaks on behalf of God telling the leaders of Judaism that change must occur, the leaders are going to naturally go against the message and seek after the dealth penalty. It has happened before and will probably happen again....

How can you trust Him as a messenger if you don't believe He is God. He claimed to be God, so they're only two possibilities: He was God, or He wasn't God and was thus lying.

If the latter, I ask you; why would you trust in a liar?
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
How can you trust Him as a messenger if you don't believe He is God. He claimed to be God, so they're only two possibilities: He was God, or He wasn't God and was thus lying.

If the latter, I ask you; why would you trust in a liar?
No, there's three possibilities.....Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic. And, none of those choices we can ever know with certainty. You have to trust completely in words from people you never knew.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
No, there's three possibilities.....Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic.

No, there are only two. Jesus said He was, so He was either lying or telling the truth. If He was a lunatic, then He was lying.

You have to trust completely in words from people you never knew.


That's just it. I believe they're God's words written down by man. I know the Lord.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
No, there are only two. Jesus said He was, so He was either lying or telling the truth. If He was a lunatic, then He was lying.
My comment was mostly tongue-n-cheek. :) Guess you never read Josh McDowell's, Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

That's just it. I believe they're God's words written down by man. I know the Lord.
I was a Baptist Christian for 25 years....I finally came to the conclusion that God can't expect us to believe in him solely from ancient words from a book. And, the Holy Spirit sounds just like me. :shrug:
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
You're misquoting Isaiah, you know.

You're leaving out the initial words of the first verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of John
The quotes from John chapter eight and 10 are out of context.

Try reading the thread--nothin you posted has been missed prior to your appearance.

Regards,

Scott

Thanks Popeyesays. I was going to respond to him but you beat me to it.


Yes, I have responded to Isaiah and most likely the rest of that stuff.....
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"No, there's three possibilities.....Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic. "

Nom there's a fourth, he was a myth.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Well, there's a supreme problem with that statement because I wasn't quoting. I was summarizing.

This is me quoting:

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." -Isaiah 7:14

Now, "a virgin shall conceive and bear a son", it says. That's Mary. "...and she shal call His (that's Jesus) name Immanuel" -Immanuel means "God with us".

Here's the verse translated from the Tanankh by Jewish scholars.

Isaiah 7:14 (Masoretic Text and the JPS 1917 Edition[FONT=&quot])[/FONT]
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Nowhere do we find Mary being ordered to call Yeshua by the title (ImmanuEl). She nerver once in the NT by herself called her son by that title. Nowhere in the NT do we find anyone else calling him by that title. The so-called prophecy is referenced by the author of the book of Matthew and only by him. None of the other authors record this supposed prophecy. This was soley the author's interpertation.


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" -Isaiah 9:6

Again, not just relying on the KJV here's the verse translated by Jewish schoars from the Tanankh.

Isaiah 9:6 (Masoretic Text and the JPS 1917 Edition[FONT=&quot])
[FONT=&quot]For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace.[/FONT][/FONT]

Rashi, (Shlomo Yitzchaki, 1040-1105 C.E.), who wrote the definitive commentaries on the Hebrew Bible comments thusly:

and… called his name: The Holy One, blessed be He, Who gives wondrous counsel, is a mighty God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace,” since peace and truth will be in his days.
"The Mighty God"? Why would the scriptures say that?

Maybe it's because He is the mighty God.

It maybe due to the weak translation and the author in the NT giving his interpertation.

This is what it says:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"

Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God.

Later in verse 14:

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth"

John 1.1 and 14 are not in dispute. The only thing that is in dispute is the interpertation.

John 1:1 stands all by itself...OK we accept that. Now the interpertaion in 14 is something all together different.

"and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us"......Yeshua was God's word here on earth. Was he physically God....NO.....The "words' of God he spoke were not his. God taught him, sent him and commanded him what he should say. So Yeshua was God's (Ambassador)....

John 7:16
Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Joh 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

John 17:14
I have given them your word;and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

Yeshua was the physical representative of God's word which he was supposed to relay to a lost and misguided people. God sent Yeshua from heaven to earth with his (God's) word and he (Yeshua) was commanded what he should say. He confirms this. So yes...the "word" was made flesh. We find that all of the other times God sent his word with the angels (who were not made flesh) which brought them to man. Yeshua was the only one of the sons of God made flesh to bring God's word. Does that make him God....NOPE.......!!

Jesus claimed to be God, the Scriptures say He was God: He was God.

Can you show me where he says that or are you going to do what most have done and refer me to the famous (John 8:58)????? If so then this too has been dealt with and none of that WHOLE conversation did Yeshua refer to himself as God or equal himself to God......
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
The fact remains...Jesus never claimed to be God and prayed to something GREATER than him. We can either choose to ignore this or openly embrace it. How can Jesus expect everyone to worship him as God when he never said or implied such a thing? If you believe him to be God Almighty, then fine. But to imply that people are somehow missing something by not believing him to be is putting too much faith in man's words..People have told you that Jesus is God. It did not come from reading the Bible or out of Jesus' own mouth. That is the only thing that bothers me about this whole argument. If you actually take the Bible, read it, and put everything in it's proper context, you will clearly see that Jesus is neither God, nor did he ever claim to be. It is man that has propped him up to such a level.
 
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