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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
This is kind of random. Didn't Paul post this some time ago? Additionally, why are you responding to him? Isn't he actually in agreement with you? Just a note though....This (IS) in the "Religious Debate" section and it would be nice for some one to list scripture to backup what they assert. Posting what you thought was overwhelming evidence was certainly your position from the very start.
I see, now you're picking an argument...
huuunnnhh....what??? Is this in the scripture? If so can you give me book, chapter and verse?
This is conjecture.
More conjecture.
Yeshua never did this.
This is, again, conjecture. Yeshua spoke of the father and when he said that he meant God and he always viewed himself separate from God. You will only be able to find verses where he shows us they are one in purpose as well as we are to become one in purpose.
Yeshua has a god
John
8:54 Yeshua answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father (GOD) that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
8:55 Yet ye have not known him (GOD); but I know him (GOD): and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his (GOD) saying.
Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Yeshua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why have you left me?
John 20:17
.....I am not yet ascended to my Father (GOD): but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father (GOD), and your Father (GOD); and to my God, and your God.
Yeshua, man and God are one in purpose
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in (us): that the world may believe that you have sent me.
17:22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as (we are one):
17:23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
One in purpose but not one in the same.
Again, this prophecy was to King Ahaz. This was a prophecy that was to manifest in his day. It was a prophecy that Ahaz would witness.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I do apologize for misspeaking. I meant Biblical Debates as opposed to General Religious Debates.
I was trying to hold out some bait but I didn't even get a nibble, lol.
I like to stick to evidence so I don't have to hear the word "conjecture." However sometimes I depart from evidence in order to make an argument.
I suppose I could have put this on Biblical Debates but then the exposure is not as good. I should think a non-Christian could argue the meaning of scripture as well as a Christian and maybe someone could even make an interesting conjecture. That is a lot to expect from this forum even though it is better than some groups I have belonged to.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Yea you were kind of transparent on that one. He did respond but I guess it wasn't eactly what you were hoping for.
Well, I'm still wating for some one to post evidence that Yeshua was God. I say "conjecture" because it's self explanatory when some one post information that is of their mind and can't be backed by the scripture they thump. If there was a quote from Yeshua where he informed the people he was God...it would have been found by now. If there was information that the people thought him to be God then it would have been revealed by now but all information says the opposite.
Yea, even in here everyone has tried to stay with the bible because your quotes were from there. There has been very little quran presented here.
Slabbey06 has compiled a good list in another ongoing thread, if you are really interested.
Link: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/58464-christian-who-christ.html
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I have found nothing in any of these quotes to suggest Yeshua is God. The people referred to him as "Son of God"....They didn't think him to be God.
Simon Peter did not think Yeshua to be God. He called him the "son of God". Yeshua says that was revealed to Simon Peter by God from above. This same kind of Language is seen in other areas of the scripture when Yeshua was being baptized and the voice came come heaven saying "This is my son whom I'm well pleased" and another time when this same voice came from heaven commanding those near Yeashua to listen to him.
The devil, who was no stranger to knowing who God was, and did not take Yeshua to be God. He knew God had appointed guardian angels over Yeshua. We know that God does not need protection from its creation.
In Luke 22:70 Yeshua DOES NOT make the declaration "Yes I am" that Slabby06 lists. I'm not sure what version of the bible he is reading from but the Revised KIng James Version says "Ye say say that I am." Slabby06 got his scriptures mixed up. So when asked the question he declared nothing. This (Yes I am) was uttered in Mark 14:62. Should we believe Luke or Mark? Both can't be the inspired word of God.
"I and the father are one"......See my previous post...(One in purpose but not one in the same.).....
Yeshua never taught that he was God and his followers did not think he was God.
He claimed to be the son of God for sure (and I definitely think that what you quoted above is evidence that Christ and God are one being). There is evidence elsewhere to suggest that there is only God. So, if you want to take that stance, you would have to argue that Jesus was an angel? That or make up a being in between angel and god that doesn't exist in the scriptures themselves.
Your previous post regarding jesus and the father only being one in purpose is the exact argument you are using to support your claims. Meaning, the quote about "the father and I are one" simply says that they are One. It doesn't say that they are only One in purpose - it simply says the father and I are One.
Zechariah 12:10 - uses the first person me" and the third person "him" to describe himself as the one being pierced
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn"
Revelations 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star"
Col: 1:15-20
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers - all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist..."
Hebrews 1:2
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."
Verses that show both God and Jesus raised Jesus from te dead. Note that these verses do not indicate in any way that God gave Jesus the power to raise Himself from the dead.
That God raised Jesus:
"And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thes. 1:10)
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11)
That Jesus raised Himself:
"Therefore doeth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." (John 10:17)
" Jesus answered, and said unto them Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)
John 10:33 - The Jews believed that Jesus was claiming to be God
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
And when you read the verses after this scripture, does Jesus say that he isn't God? Not at all.
Luke 8:38-39 -
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."
Paul uses God and Jesus interchangably
"For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So, then, "every one of us shall give account of himself to God."
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
You will not be able to find anything in the scripture to support your claim that Yeshua is God. If so it would have truely been laid out by now. None of his followers thought him to be God. "Whatever you ask OF GOD HE WILL GIVE IT TO you". We certainly can't look upon that and assume she believed he was God....."My God, My God...why have YOU left ME".....Same here.....
I have never speculated as to what kind of being Yeshua was before coming here. That information is not given in the scripture. What is in the scripture is this....
Yeshua before coming here had his own will. "I came not of my own will but the will of the one who sent me".
I was commanded what to say.....I was taught what to say....I was sent.....I did as I saw my father (God) do.....He gave me......
All this (BEFORE) coming to earth and is confirmed by scripture.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Yeshua, man and God are one in purpose
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in (us): that the world may believe that you have sent me.
17:22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as (we are one):
17:23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
One in purpose but not one in the same.
If we are to become one with Yeshua and one with God as Yeshua mentioned by saying (US).....then are we to be God as well? I don't think so. This one is in unity...one in purpose ""that they may be made perfect in one".....
It would be nice for your claim if this was a correct translation but sadly it's not. Here that verse from the hebrew, from the Tanahk
The Masoretic Text and JPS 1917 Edition
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
Revised Standard Version (Bible)
Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.
If you examine that chapter you will notice it has nothing to do with Yeshua. Verse 1-9 speaks of a battle that has not taken place and obviously did not happen in the time of Yeshua.
What is supposed to be here to show he is God? The fact that he sent his angel? This does not show he is God. Does he have divine power in heaven that was GIVEN to him?.....YES he does.
Matthew 28:18
And Yeshua came and spake unto them, saying, (All power is given unto me in heaven) and in earth.
This was Paul's opinion. I don't agree with him. But he does say "in the image". We were created in God's image but that does not make us God.
Again, opinions of men in this "letter"....All of this is strikingly different than how Yeshua saw himself. He never saw himself as God or equal to God. His followers never thought him to be either.
Doesn't say that he is either.
He, after their charge quoted the scripture to them in order to change their misconceptions...."Is it not wriiten in your law that you are gods?"
And even at this point he states that he is the "son of God".....and God is in him as he in God.....again this is what he says in his (prayer) to God. They are one in purpose but not one in the same. The people didn't want to hear him anymore and wanted to kill him.
All he did was give the glory to Yeshua instead of giving it to God. As we gaze back at Luke 8:28 and Mark 5:7 we clearly see that the powerful demon spirit inside the man knew exactly who Yeshua was. He did not think him to be God....but rather a "son of the most high God".....
Again, this was Paul's opinion of the man who he never met. And the scripture has already shown that Yeshua exist in heaven with his own will. That is undeniable.
John 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
John 8:16
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
John 8:26
I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Muffled
Jesus in me
God is immutable. He does not change by inhabiting a body.
Jesus does not have a separate will from the Father. The only will that can be different is the will of the flesh which Jesus has overcome.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Ok...I repeat myself then. I do not speculate as to what kind of being Yeshua was before coming here. That information is not given in the scripture. This statement goes to those who believe Yeshua is God or pose the question to me as to if I believe Yeshua was an angel in heaven. I make my statement because that kind of information is not given. Yeshua was one of God's servants who did the will of God.
Are you not reading your own bible? I have been saying that (HE MOST CERTAINLY DOES) from the beginning and now you want to come along and make a claim like this? If you are doubting that Yeshua, while in heaven, had his own will then you may lack a basic fundamental understanding of the scripture. The scripture is straight to the point on this. Here's what Yeshua said about his will....
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
As I've stated before, Yeshua, BEFORE coming here, had his own will. Even in that verse we find separation.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
As I have been saying Yeshua came to do the will of God that sent him.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Do you see it now? He has to repeat himself so that his followers would understand exactly who he was, who sent him and what his purpose of being sent was.
Look, you made the statement but it is right there.
That's not what Yeshua said in John 6:38......:sarcastic
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Then there is no point to Christ ever having come. If He had no will of His Own, then He was not a man. Man has WILL, it is part of his nature. Jesus spent forty days in the desert decigint to do God's will rather than His own. When Jesus prayed in the garden, He begged God to change His will for Jesus, Jesus CHOSE to follow God's will not His own. That's no sacrifice otherwise.
Jesus prayed and taught us to pray "Thy will be done." what's the point if He had no will of His own?
Your statement is very poorly thought out.
Regards,
Scott
madhatter85
Transhumanist
It is impossible for Jesus Christ and God to be the same personage.
Jesus Christ prays to the Father as in Mark 14, why would he pray to himself?
just for a couple refrences.
Jesus Christ prays to the Father as in Mark 14, why would he pray to himself?
Why in Matthew 3 does it say:
just for a couple refrences.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I think he is randomly posting to see if he can get a rise out of us or just for his own pleasure in keeping this debate going.
I'm not sure how many times some one can refer to theior god before people stop wasting their tim in assuming that person IS God. Yeshua isn't God because he showed us he wasn't and he showed us he had a God. He did this by words and actions. Even the opinion of men, conflited in their thoughts and words, believed Yeshua was totally seperate from God.
Look at what Paul really believed.....(At least what he believe for the moment in this letter)
2 Corithians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
Muffled
Jesus in me
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
That's because God is not a "Personage". God is God and no man can be an equal of God. The "Trinity" of one in three or Three as One is an empty shell, with no relevance to anything. It's a broken model of something which cannot be modelled at all.
Regards,
Scott
AMEN.....:yes: