Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

Im not a "doer" at all. I am a "be'er as I know who"I am" in Christ.
If you make a graven image of God, you are in denial that you are in the image of God. You are trying to worship from a place of "doing" instead of "being".

Is that supposed to somehow mean you're not a doer of Lawlessness in the exact context of what Jesus meant? So you're a "be-er of lawlessness" instead?

These Christian answers never cease to amaze me with their off-the-wallness. You definitely don't know who you are in Christ. Someone of your belief has no place in Christ. Those who believe like you will have a grave disappointed when it's time.

 

[Walkntune]

Is that supposed to somehow mean you're not a doer of Lawlessness in the exact context of what Jesus meant? So you're a "be-er of lawlessness" instead?

These Christian answers never cease to amaze me with their off-the-wallness. You definitely don't know who you are in Christ. Someone of your belief has no place in Christ. Those who believe like you will have a grave disappointed when it's time.

It means I do not judge another human being based on their struggles of good and bad behaviour but I am not afraid to reach down into their heart past all of their guilt and shame and hurts because they feel they have failed and still love them at their core for who they are as a beautiful person. I will sit and eat with a sinner. A person cannot accept their own faults to deal with them if they are always rejected by the judgmental religious law followers. They need the ones who walk in love and not afraid to get their hands dirty and reach down and pull a person out of the dirt faults and all and give them a love that will complete them. The woman with the issue of blood by law should have been stoned for being in public in her filthiness by the law doers yet she reached out in faith to the cleanest one around and was made whole.
People only do wrong because they are empty and seek love. Jesus taught those who were forgiven much would love much.
Truthfully I would not even serve a God that demanded love and to be served out of command as a dictator. Love is never self seeking.
This is not a God of love. Because of this law mentality I understand why their has been so much hate, and wars done in the name of religion.Once someone makes a law it becomes an expectation on another to be the same and a form of control is intended.
On the other hand those who walk in love and truth are free.

 

[1robin]

"Away from me ye doers of lawlessness".

This category covers everyone. Are you suggesting you break no law? There is no question whether each and everyone of is has not been alienated from God by sin. The question is what was done about it? The possibility of fixing this problem by effort does not exist.

 

[1robin]

Yep thats true. Honestly though I could take it even further and say that it is not our faith that saves either but it is the faith of Christ! Its better to believe in and trust in the faithfulness of God and not our own.

Strictly speaking that is not faith. We have faith in him because we can't prove he exists. He does not faith in us he knows us. I agree that it is own his merits that we must rely but faith is a not technically one of them unless you meant faithful.

 

[Walkntune]

Strictly speaking that is not faith. We have faith in him because we can't prove he exists. He does not faith in us he knows us. I agree that it is own his merits that we must rely but faith is a not technically one of them unless you meant faithful.

This could get deep and need another thread.LOL Whos faith did Paul say he lived by?
Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[metis]

Acts 15 (and 21:25)'s authenticity have been disputed by quite a few scholars. For one thing, it seems to outright contradict Galatians 2, and even FF Bruce acknowledges this and gives a shoddy attempt at reconciliation!

I never said they walked through the tulips singing "Kumbaya" and, as a matter of fact, I did refer to what might have been a conflict between Paul and James. Now, I said "might", largely because there's more than one way to interpret the related verses.

With that said, the epistle of James may also be seen as a stern rebuke of this "grace only" anti-law/anti-works theology Paul was going around preaching.

"Stern" is your interpretation, which might be correct but might not be.

Paul was well-educated in the Hellenized tradition that used dualisms a great deal. Therefore, if one takes Paul's words literally at all times, they can miss what actually is being said. Paul is adamant about the belief in Jesus being paramount, but appears to do so in a dualistic manner, thus overstating it. It is possible James wanted to set the record straight, but Paul may well be doing the same when he clarifies his position with references to what I posted before in regards to the issue of "love".

Also, we don't know if Paul and James eventually kissed and made up, which I think is likely. We also don't know if James stayed with the Ebionites or possibly did double-duty with them and the 12. There's simply not enough information to go by, and I'm not going to take a position one way or another as I don't believe jumping to conclusions on such skimpy evidence makes any sense.

As for the 'early church", you should consider learning some history of the early church itself, there was a major split at some point in the early stages between the gentile antinomians who mainly went by Paul and the Nazarene Jews and Ebionites, many of the Ebionites condemned Paul. The use of the word "Early Church" is dubious at best. The EARLIEST church was entirely Jewish and Torah obedient.

Your condescension is noted but off the mark. I taught Christian theology to adults for 14 years and, as a matter of fact, I have a two-part seminar on Christianity that I'm teaching in October and November. My specialization has been with the early church for the first two centuries.

As far as the earliest church is concerned, you're off-base largely because of the "God-fearers" (gentiles who believed in God as Jews did but were not under the law) became involved in some leadership positions, although certainly not up to the level of the 12, around 50+ c.e. and quite possibly before. Secondly, the church walked away from the Law, the quotes I have posted twice, and I cannot in any way picture them doing that without picking up something that Jesus said along those lines.

And if the church was "Torah obedient", then how could Peter declare all animals to be "clean" whereas Torah divides animals into clean or unclean?

You need to learn some basic Bible scholarship, 2 Peter is nearly unanimously considered a forgery.

It make little difference is it was a forgery because the points still stand. The church were walking away from the Law while most of the apostles were still alive-- period. Therefore, the question you need to work on is why did they do that if they supposedly were all "Torah observant"?

Also, there simply is no agreed upon verdict if II Peter is a "forgery", especially since it was common during that time for a student to give credit to his mentor, especially if he had been taught directly by his mentor. In most cases, it's virtually impossible to know for certain who actually wrote what, and I simply don't lose any sleep over it.

Finally, if you chose to respond, please try to not be so condescending.

 

[icebuddy]

"Away from me ye doers of lawlessness".

Mat 7:23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

The Key here is to "Know" Jesus. Have a relationship with Jesus!

Jhn 17:3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

I noticed the my NWT says "Taking in Knowledge" and not Knowing or To know... Could be our big difference, Im not sure what a JW thinking person sees here...

Jhn 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Clearly one can study and miss the truth of Jesus...

Eph 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Amen to that! The Love

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sweet Jesus!

Mat 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Act 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

What is the NAME? Jesus!

Act 2:21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Don't Forget that all the scriptures point to Jesus who is "Jehovah our Righteousness"! To the Glory of the Father!

Tts 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Tts 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Tts 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
Tts 2:15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Isa 45:21 “Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.

Isa 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Jesus is truly one with the Father! (In more ways than one)

 

[1robin]

This could get deep and need another thread.LOL Whos faith did Paul say he lived by?
Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I agree. The point is not all that crucial. That was a nice verse for your argument. It would all depend on what he meant by those words I guess.

 

[metis]

Let me just add something here.

If Jesus supposedly supported the complete following of the Law, and if the apostles also reiterated that, then I guess a conclusion would have to be made that the Christian churches today are bogus since none of them follow the Law. Now, it's true that the Law is not binding on gentiles, but Jesus and the apostles were Jewish, therefore bound by the Law.

Paul's argument is a logical one if one buys into it, namely that he believes that Jesus was above the Law and, therefore, could change it or teach others not to follow at least parts of it. If one doesn't buy into Paul's argument, then one would seemingly have to conclude that all the present churches are not teaching what Jesus taught, and that one would have to convert to Judaism and follow the Law in order to actually follow Jesus.

 

[Shermana]

Mat 7:23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

The Key here is to "Know" Jesus. Have a relationship with Jesus!

Jhn 17:3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

I noticed the my NWT says "Taking in Knowledge" and not Knowing or To know... Could be our big difference, Im not sure what a JW thinking person sees here...

Jhn 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Clearly one can study and miss the truth of Jesus...

Eph 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Amen to that! The Love

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sweet Jesus!

Mat 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Act 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

What is the NAME? Jesus!

Act 2:21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Don't Forget that all the scriptures point to Jesus who is "Jehovah our Righteousness"! To the Glory of the Father!

Tts 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Tts 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Tts 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
Tts 2:15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Isa 45:21 “Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.

Isa 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Jesus is truly one with the Father! (In more ways than one)

Okay, what does that have to do with the fact that Jesus will reject you if reject the Torah? You can claim to know Jesus all you want, it won't matter.

 

[Walkntune]

I agree. The point is not all that crucial. That was a nice verse for your argument. It would all depend on what he meant by those words I guess.

I feel it is important in the understanding of coming to the end of ourselves(even faith conjured up from ourselves) and relying on God for the first measure and to be the author and finisher of it. In our own efforts of standing in our own faith we are limited to this faith and have a great limitation to what we allow God to do for us but as we trust his faithfulness even over our own then we can stand and trust God even when we feel faithless. It may seem subtle but we cannot even boast of standing in a faith as we must recieve it from God as well. It is not faith but grace that saves and faith was just a tool or vessel by which grace moved. It is easy for the church to get caught up in worshiping faith over the grace of God and gets us to take our eyes off of Christ and put them on ourselves and where we stand in our faith. We tend to look at our walk instead of who we are walking to and this is what caused Peter to sink.

 

[icebuddy]

Okay, what does that have to do with the fact that Jesus will reject you if reject the Torah? You can claim to know Jesus all you want, it won't matter.

Maybe I read into your post a bit, but do you have a relationship with Jesus personally? Do you talk to him ask him for help...

 

[Shermana]

Maybe I read into your post a bit, but do you have a relationship with Jesus personally? Do you talk to him ask him for help...

Me and the Logos are very tight.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Paul's argument is a logical one if one buys into it, namely that he believes that Jesus was above the Law and, therefore, could change it or teach others not to follow at least parts of it. If one doesn't buy into Paul's argument, then one would seemingly have to conclude that all the present churches are not teaching what Jesus taught, and that one would have to convert to Judaism and follow the Law in order to actually follow Jesus.

Then Paul's argument fails because the biblical Yeshua said he came (not) to abolish the law or change one dot. If that's the case then he was a Jew that followed law. He also, according to their bible, said explicitly that the laws should be followed.

 

[Shermana]

Then Paul's argument fails because the biblical Yeshua said he came (not) to abolish the law or change one dot. If that's the case then he was a Jew that followed law. He also, according to their bible, said explicitly that the laws should be followed.

May you be successful in promoting understanding of this truth, regardless if you believe the system or not.

 

[nash8]

Me and the Logos are very tight.

LMFAO, Frubals for you sir, and on a side note, Jesus is my best friend.

Then Paul's argument fails because the biblical Yeshua said he came (not) to abolish the law or change one dot. If that's the case then he was a Jew that followed law. He also, according to their bible, said explicitly that the laws should be followed.

What is the law, specifics, not "the law of Judaism". Ex. what is "the law" of Judaism? The only one I know off the top of my head is, don't mix meat with dairy, which makes a lot of sense to me especially given the context of the time period it was written.

May you be successful in promoting understanding of this truth, regardless if you believe the system or not.

So what is "The Law" in your opinion Shermana?

 

[Shermana]

So what is "The Law" in your opinion Shermana?

The Same Law Jesus was talking about in Matthew 5:17-20, the one Moses instituted as he was commanded to by God, the one that is "perpetual" for "All generations" of which "Heaven and Earth will collapse" before a single "iota" is dropped or made void, of which anyone who teaches to break the least of its precepts will be among the least in the Kingdom. The same law the Female disciples followed when they obeyed Sabbath even after Jesus had been crucified.

The one that the Jerusalem Church under James accused Paul of teaching Jews to break and requiring him to take a Nazarite vow to disprove the rumors.

 

[Muffled]

Its pretty simple really, the church over many years have focused the scriptures to their own interpretation, they read in the scriptures how god didn't like this and how he didn't like that, they use what they have come to believe as a wepon against those who don't agree with their interpretation, and the other also have used their interpretation as a wepon as well. There is no one way of enterpreting the Scriptures, whatever level of Consciousness you are, that is where your discernment of truth will come from.

In the dark ages the level of Consciousness was very low and hence the dark ages, today there are many who are questioning the old beliefs, they are realizing that God is within and was never found outside, these are the ones who will lead us all to a higher Consciousness, we then will realize what was meant by heaven on earth because that is the only place where you will ever find it, and also we will realize that Jesus if he ever did existed was simply telling us that we are all God, that is collectively .

Whatever the validity of that, I believe it has nothing to do with me because I haven't bought into a heirarchy of doctrine.

I don't believe there is any chance that evil will leave this world unless it is expunged from it. It would be nice if everyone would have God consciousness, then it would be Heaven on earth but just read a few things on RF and see that it isn't very likely to happen.

I believe the Holy Spirit will interpret scripture in only onw way.

I believe my level is God consciusness.

I dont believe Jesus ever said this.

 

[Muffled]

To the OP, I have very strong doubts Jesus ever claimed to be God, and one of the reasons is that it's very hard to imagine Jews, who are brought up from being knee-high to a grasshopper that God is non-corporal, would follow a man walking around saying or implying "I am God". What I tend to think is more likely to be the case is that his followers felt he was of God, and later this got altered, quite possibly under later Hellenistic influence, to say he was God.

I beleive that argument fails to take into account that people don't listen to what Jesus says very well. Also we don't know if Jesus was talking privately with the Pharisees when He said "I and my Father are one." Certainly the Pharisees were opposed to the concept of God incarnated.

 

[metis]

Then Paul's argument fails because the biblical Yeshua said he came (not) to abolish the law or change one dot. If that's the case then he was a Jew that followed law. He also, according to their bible, said explicitly that the laws should be followed.

It appears to me that Jesus took a very liberal position vis-a-vis the Law, which was not totally unusual amongst the liberal Pharisees, thus stating that the entire Law rested on love of God and humankind. However, the entire Law does not just include dealing with those two teachings unless one takes a very liberal position that they all relate directly and indirectly.

Therefore, it's at this juncture that I believe his difference with the mainline Pharisee element went sour, because they were adamant that the entire Law must be followed directly, including the safeguard of their "building a fence around Torah" and following the "oral law".

To me, the above scenario is the only one that can take accusations on both sides and makes sense of them, especially when what happened is considered. There is no way that I can see whereas the early church walked away from the Law just based on what Paul said. Paul was not the dictator of the church-- quite the opposite as he tells others to listen and follow the 12, plus he keeps corresponding with them.

Therefore, Jesus essentially proclaiming the law of love is what Torah is entirely about, looking at this from his liberal perspective, would project that the letter of the law is of lesser importance.