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Did Jesus say he was God???

Shermana

Heretic
How many times have we seen some Christians throw Paul under the bus, and they typically do so by cherry-picking the scriptures,

Do you know what "Cherry picking" means? Rejecting the Pauline epistles is not "Cherry picking". Quoting something out of context is "Cherry picking".

but then they turn around and quote these same scriptures when it suits their fancy?

When you're dealing with Paul to Paulines, you quote him to make a point about what he said about their own doctrine. Besides, not EVERYTHING Paul said was wrong. Broken clocks are right twice a day. Even a liar says the sky is blue. There are some valuable things we can get from the Pauline epistles about the beliefs and behavior of the "Early Church".

It makes not one iota of sense or logic to do so because of the actions of the early church itself actually are more than clear.

If you want to believe that the actions of the "Early" Church are all represented by the Paulines who organized decades after the Jewish church and you want to disregard the anti-Pauline factions, have at it, but it's quite clear you're not interested in logic. Perhaps one day you may want to learn about the early split between the Jewish Christians and Pauline dejudaizers. Until then, just admit that you're dead set on trying to prove that Christianity is anti-Law, even though it completely contradicts what Jesus taught. You can pretend that no such controversy exists or that those on the Judaizing side are all wrong because of the actions of the Pauline church, but that's far from being close to logical.

BTW, I highly recommend this book: "Tradition in the Early Church": by R.P.C. Hanson (Aug 1, 2009), who's an Anglican theologian. What Dr. Hanson does that makes his book special is he very carefully documents his assertions using especially the writings from the patriarchs of the 2nd through 4th centuries. This book is worth its weight in gold, and it's the best I've run across thus far.

Hopefully you can understand that the "Early Church" does not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of the EarliEST church and you can realize that the proto-orthodox may have been a bit astray from the other claimants like the Nazarenes and Ebionites, who you seem to brush off each time they are mentioned.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There are those who simply wish to ignore the relationship of Paul to the early church because of their agenda, so these next two items are meant to point out that one simply cannot do that without doing all sorts of theological gymnastics. Next are two items I'll post, even though I am obviously very aware of the fact that Wikipedia is not a theological site, but it does contain some overview with links:

Those who hold for the importance of apostolic succession via episcopal laying on of hands appeal to the New Testament, which, they say, implies a personal apostolic succession (from Paul to Timothy and Titus, for example). They appeal as well to other documents of the early Church, especially the Epistle of St. Clement. In this context, Clement explicitly states that the apostles appointed bishops as successors and directed that these bishops should in turn appoint their own successors; given this, such leaders of the Church were not to be removed without cause and not in this way. -- Apostolic succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also...


Most scholars agree that a vital meeting between Paul and the Jerusalem church took place some time in the years 48 to 50, described in Acts 15:2 and usually seen as the same event mentioned by Paul in Galatians 2:1. The key question raised was whether Gentile converts needed to be circumcised. At this meeting, Paul claims in his letter to the Galatians that Peter, James, and John accepted Paul's mission to the Gentiles.
Jerusalem meetings are mentioned in Acts, in Paul's letters, and some appear in both. For example, the Jerusalem visit for famine relief[Acts 11:27-30] apparently corresponds to the "first visit" (to Cephas and James only).[Gal. 1:18-20] F. F. Bruce suggested that the "fourteen years" could be from Paul's conversion rather than from his first visit to Jerusalem. -- Most scholars agree that a vital meeting between Paul and the Jerusalem church took place some time in the years 48 to 50, described in Acts 15:2 and usually seen as the same event mentioned by Paul in Galatians 2:1. The key question raised was whether Gentile converts needed to be circumcised. At this meeting, Paul claims in his letter to the Galatians that Peter, James, and John accepted Paul's mission to the Gentiles.

Jerusalem meetings are mentioned in Acts, in Paul's letters, and some appear in both. For example, the Jerusalem visit for famine relief[Acts 11:27-30] apparently corresponds to the "first visit" (to Cephas and James only).[Gal. 1:18-20] F. F. Bruce suggested that the "fourteen years" could be from Paul's conversion rather than from his first visit to Jerusalem.
-- Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To somehow separate Paul from the apostolic church is really absurd, which not only defies logic, but even basic theological scholarship. How many times have we seen people with their agendas denying even basic evidence.
 

Shermana

Heretic
There are those who simply wish to ignore the relationship of Paul to the early church because of their agenda,

o somehow separate Paul from the apostolic church is really absurd, which not only defies logic, but even basic theological scholarship. How many times have we seen people with their agendas denying even basic evidence.


This is what I'm talking about. Did you even read what you quoted??




Yes, I have an agenda. I have a confirmation bias. I admit mine. Do you think you don't? You talk about "Basic theological scholarship" but it's quite apparent you yourself haven't read it. You get offended when I point out that you make assertions you don't know anything about, and you prove it quite handily when you didn't even know about 2 Peter. You're the one denying basic evidence. You don't even understand the whole point of the contention with Acts 21. Even by the traditional account, the meeting with Paul and the Jerusalem Church after the alleged "Council of Jerusalem" was one of extreme suspicion.

With that said, you consistently refuse to address the issue behind Acts 21 in the first place!

FF Bruce also admits there is a problem reconciling Acts 15 and Galatians 2, which is why he comes up with a very strange (and rarely if ever supported by others) idea that it's referring to two different events. Many scholars don't even believe it happened (At least as Acts 15 says it did).

http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com/2007/10/jerusalem-council.html

2. Paul's understanding of his meeting in Jerusalem recorded in Galatians 2 does not correspond to Acts 15, neither in terms of outcome or in terms of who was there and what was discussed. Trying to harmonize them results in apology, not history.

3. If the decision of Acts 15 had been made prior to the Antiochean Affair, it doesn't make sense that the apostles would then begin a counter-mission to Paul after the Affair and demand circumcision of the Gentiles in the churches Paul missionizes. It is very clear to me that the opponents to Paul are not unknown folks, but authoritative missionaries (even disciples) from Jerusalem.

4. Then there is that strange passage in Acts 21:25 that appears to suggest a letter having been sent out without Paul's knowledge about a decision made by James in terms of the Noahide laws, a decision that looks to be a compromise between Paul's radical position, and that of the Jerusalem Church, although no mention is made of circumcision.


PS Let me also add, there are a few, though not the majority, (though perhaps may be later), who have excellent reasons for why Galatians may be yet another forgery/"Pseudipigrapha" not actually written by Paul....

^ for example, F. R. McGuire, even though otherwise critical scholars like A. Q. Morton saw this text as the benchmark for refuting Pauline authorship of most other epistles; see A. Q. Morton and J. McLeman, Paul, the Man and the Myth (1966).

http://www.radikalkritik.de/DID PAUL WRITE GALATIANS.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Pauline_epistles

http://www.thewaytoyahuweh.com/research/did-paul-write-galatians (Requires a download, excellent, well-written read comparable to any scholarly writing in detail and analysis).

The description of the 'Apostolic Council' in Acts 15, generally considered the same event described in Galatians 2,[58] is considered by some scholars to be contradictory to the Galatians account.[59] The historicity of Luke's account has been challenged,[60][61][62] and was rejected completely by some scholars in the mid to late 20th century.[63] However, more recent scholarship inclines towards treating the Jerusalem Council and its rulings as a historical event,[64] though this is sometimes expressed with caution.[65]

(Note: The more recent scholarship in question seems to be most entirely that of Conservative scholars, and there's a reason it is "expressed with caution").

http://paulproblem.faithweb.com/split2.htm

You probably don't even know about the scholarly issue with the Council of Jerusalem and its clash with Galatians 2 and how it was widely considered Interpolated by the Tubingen school and many recent scholars. You are by no means here for honest discussion, and if you are, you certainly haven't indicated it, you are here to push the traditional antinomian Evangelical view and then plug your ears to all arguments on the other side.

You are acting as if you can just totally sideswipe this historically controversial issue and brush aside all arguments in favor of the anti-Paul position, and it wouldn't be as annoying if you were just an Evangelical trying to vouch for his own belief.

You've probably never heard of F.C. Baur either.

Nor have you probably heard about the Clementine Literature (Which are not the Epistles of Clement).

Why don't you kindly admit your own agenda and then try actually learning about this. Otherwise, I will not tolerate your none-too-veiled agenda to promote the same antinomian view as the orthodox church on my watch. And please, try actually sticking to an APPROPRIATE THREAD.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
I believe I take exception to that. As a gentile I am glad that I don't have to become Jewish to be a Christian.
The most Jewish of the NT apostles said specifically that is was completely invalid for any Jew who accepted Christ to ever look back to Judaism for anything. It was to take your eyes off the cure and to look at the problem for help. Every single time anyone ever asked or suggested Judaism had any benefit once Christ was adopted it was met with rebuke from Jewish Christians. You are right to be glad you have no obligation to it as a Christian.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The most Jewish of the NT apostles said specifically that is was completely invalid for any Jew who accepted Christ to ever look back to Judaism for anything.

Verse please. Are you referring to Pharicasim or the Law itself?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would suggest that Jesus probably didn't come to start a new religion but instead to try and reform Judaism along the lines he felt were important by creating his own school, which others had also done in the past. Therefore, I would also suggest that if Judaism is somehow to be disregarded, then maybe Jesus was a failure by creating a new religion that he probably didn't want to create in the first place. After all, remember he said he came "only for the Jews".
 

Shermana

Heretic
I would suggest that Jesus probably didn't come to start a new religion but instead to try and reform Judaism along the lines he felt were important by creating his own school, which others had also done in the past. Therefore, I would also suggest that if Judaism is somehow to be disregarded, then maybe Jesus was a failure by creating a new religion that he probably didn't want to create in the first place. After all, remember he said he came "only for the Jews".

Well sheesh, now we're at least closer to being on the same page now aren't we.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Verse please. Are you referring to Pharicasim or the Law itself?
Let me find the verse.

It took me a while:

Galatians 5:4

Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Galatians 5:4.


Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

GALATIANS 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Writing later of the incident, Paul recounts: "I opposed [Peter] to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong". Paul reports that he told Peter: "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"[Gal. 2:11–14]
Paul the Apostle and Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was going to post a bunch of confirming information but it took me too long to find that one verse. There are many others that mean the same thing but I mentioned Paul and had it in mind so I searched until I found that specific one.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The most Jewish of the NT apostles

I think you're GRAVELY mistaken on who was the "Most Jewish of the NT apostles".

Besides, see back a few posts, there are some excellent arguments against the authenticity of Galatians that have made headway in recent years.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I think you're GRAVELY mistaken on who was the "Most Jewish of the NT apostles".
To avoid debating who was most Jewish let me change that to an even more relevant claim. He was the most educated in the law and the most dedicated in it's service until he met Christ anyway of any apostle. Is this at least uncontestable. I wish to debate the issue not any side bars I made along the way.

Besides, see back a few posts, there are some excellent arguments against the authenticity of Galatians that have made headway in recent years.
Against the book or some of it's claims? What post numbers? I can exclude Paul completely and still make the same argument. Do you agree that the Gospel writers suggested grace above the law. Even when they through outside pressure went back to recognizing the law as it was practiced thorough the denial of Gentiles equal status, circumcision, and eating habits, etc.... they were rebuked by someone who prevailed in any debate that took place. At best a few verses suggest we should not appear to be hostile towards the law or those that practice it. We are going to have to get some goal posts before the issue can be debated further. I will let you begin if you wish. It is quite telling that most of those who value the law (which never had any power to save anyone) above grace find a way to attempt to dismiss the greatest expert on the law in the NT, even though his writings are some of the best credentialed and the earliest. I have always found that desperate but I will read what post numbers you provide. I have to go. Have a good one.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Just curious as to how one would get around John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Genesis says God created the world???
 

Shermana

Heretic
Just curious as to how one would get around John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Genesis says God created the world???

God created the world using the Logos, the First Created Being as his vehicle, this is Proverbs 8:22, "Wisdom" is the usual translation but it is most definitely referring to the actual incarnation of God's word as the Targums imply, not just some fancy poetic metaphor, but an actual being that comes up referenced in several other works as an actual live spirit of sorts.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
God created the world using the Logos, the First Created Being as his vehicle, this is Proverbs 8:22, "Wisdom" is the usual translation but it is most definitely referring to the actual incarnation of God's word as the Targums imply, not just some fancy poetic metaphor, but an actual being that comes up referenced in several other works as an actual live spirit of sorts.
Not following here. The verse is referring to Christ. Please elaborate if you will and tie it into Christ. Thanks.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
Just curious as to how one would get around John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Genesis says God created the world???
Genesis says that God created the world. No biblical book, chapter, or verse contradicts this. However, other books go on to specify that God created the world "through" his firstborn son Jesus Christ.

John 1:2-3
2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
:beach: And all of these written words are true !
~
And....when, and on which occassions were they all said,
and written down, old expression : "Write that down !"
How many different stenogrophers were at each place of these utterences !
~
Sorry....can't buy it, but no-one cares anyway.
~
`mud
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I'd like to see you prove that.
Then tell me which apostle had greater training in the law that Paul and we can compare them. Maybe Peter was actually reading the Torah to Gamaliel, when he should have been fishing.



I'd like to see you try.
I already gave one example and I have gotten no response.
 
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