Did Jesus say he was God???

[icebuddy]

Yes Jesus was called mighty God but never the Almighty.That title is reserved only for the most High.

What name does the bible tell us to call upon as Christian? To my knowledge, the Father doesn't hold back titles that we cannot call his Image (Jesus).

Many think that when it says that Jesus is the "exact representation of God's being" that it means Jesus is God in the flesh.This is incorrect.It is saying that Jesus possesses Gods qualities.His attributes,which are Love,Wisdom,Justice and Power.

Yes, Jesus does possess all of Gods qualities because he is God with the Father and Holy Spirit. There are tons of passage in the OT that say no one is like God not even close. He alone creates and made everything by himself. Yet we read in these later days that Jesus is Exactly like God and created too? We read Jesus is our Rock and Savior... We read Jesus is the one that followed the Jews by a cloud day and night. That Jesus was their Rock... let me ask you the question of who this passage is talking about:

Psa 102:24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psa 102:27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Who is that according to the Father at Hebrews 1:10 ?

When mankind was created in the Garden of Eden this is what was also meant.God is a spirit.His image cannot be seen by humans.

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God... (not to get distracted by the end of this passage)

2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

These passages seem to disagree with your thoughts to me. God the Fathers image is Jesus. That is why we read john 14:9 and others alike.

Ask yourself, what is satan blinding people from seeing?
1. That Jesus is the Image of God or that he isnt?
2. That we can look to the Image of God and say "My God" or "Not God"?

Jhn 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Jhn 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jhn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas realized that Jesus was the True image of God. To say Gods image cannot be seen is to deny Jesus of being the Image of God.

PS - These are my beliefs and my Churches beliefs and I/we hold them to be true

 

[Jensen]

Look a little deeper at Hebrews 1:3. Look up the word for "Exact Representation" or what ever your bible translates for "charaktēr" (Greek)...

Greek -
charaktēr

1. the instrument used for engraving or carving
2. the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
   1. a mark or figure burned in or stamped on, an impression
   2. the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

Jesus is God stamped out in human flesh according to what we read and believe. That is why we see so many old testament passages of Jehovah being applied to Jesus. We also see all the names for God in the OT being applied to Jesus in the NT...

PS - These are my beliefs and that of my Church that I believe to be true

You may believe what you church does if you wish, but I like to listen to the bible and what it says, although I admit that no one has a perfect understanding; there are many verses that are not difficult to understand, and so I believe that concerning the trinity I am not wrong on my views on it. Jesus is the image of God, and so is mankind, and this does not make us that which we and Jesus are the image of.

I looked up verse....Hebrews 1:3 KJV3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:


And it says that he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty....that is Jesus sat at the right hand of God. Not that he was or is or became God. He sat next to his God.


One is not an image of himself, but can only be an image of someone other than himself. IF Jesus were God, there would never be a need to say that he is the image of God, as he would be the original thing, which he is not. Hebrews 1:3 does not support that Jesus is God, but the one that was sat at the right hand of God.

 

[icebuddy]

I never said that God is either real nor unreal as I have no belief either way, and no belief is no belief.

Thats a hard answer to swallow... There are 2 doors and behind one of the doors is the correct answer. To not Choose a door, is making a choice and therefore becomes what I call "Your Belief". You believe in not making a choice (correct?)

 

[Nada]

What name does the bible tell us to call upon as Christian? To my knowledge, the Father doesn't hold back titles that we cannot call his Image (Jesus).

Yes, Jesus does possess all of Gods qualities because he is God with the Father and Holy Spirit. There are tons of passage in the OT that say no one is like God not even close. He alone creates and made everything by himself. Yet we read in these later days that Jesus is Exactly like God and created too? We read Jesus is our Rock and Savior... We read Jesus is the one that followed the Jews by a cloud day and night. That Jesus was their Rock... let me ask you the question of who this passage is talking about:

Psa 102:24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psa 102:27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Who is that according to the Father at Hebrews 1:10 ?

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God... (not to get distracted by the end of this passage)

2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

These passages seem to disagree with your thoughts to me. God the Fathers image is Jesus. That is why we read john 14:9 and others alike.

Ask yourself, what is satan blinding people from seeing?
1. That Jesus is the Image of God or that he isnt?
2. That we can look to the Image of God and say "My God" or "Not God"?

Jhn 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Jhn 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jhn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas realized that Jesus was the True image of God. To say Gods image cannot be seen is to deny Jesus of being the Image of God.

PS - These are my beliefs and my Churches beliefs and I/we hold them to be true

#1 We serve Jehovah God but no one can come to God unless they come through Jesus Christ first.

#2 No,Jesus is not God.Jesus is in agreement with the Father by way of the holy spirit.
Jesus did not follow the Jews as a cloud by night.Only by day.It was fire by night.

In Hebrews 1:10 it is referring to the son,Jesus Christ.This can be verified if you go 8 versus back to Hebrews 1:2Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

God created all things through Jesus Christ.Jesus Christ was as a master worker along side Jehovah God when all was being created.This can be confirmed in Proverbs 8:22-31.
Jehovah God is saying He is Jesus' God in verse 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

If you read Hebrews 1:5 it is also quoting 2 Samuel 7:14 I will become his father, and he will become my son.When he does wrong, I will reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of men.

Hebrews 1:5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

So we can obviously see that Solomon and Jesus are not the same right? Same with the other scripture that has been quoted from Psalm.Jesus Christ and Jehovah God the Almighty are two separate beings.

#3 The image of God is not a literal image or physical.Spirits are invisible.When mankind was made in the image of God they were not made to look like invisible spirits.It is speaking of His attributes.Gods qualities.Jesus' action's speak volumes about him and who he represents.God is love and so is Jesus.God is the possessor of all Wisdom.Jesus was very wise.God is Just.Jesus speaks for Justice.God is all powerful.Jesus displayed and showed his power that came from God.

What you believe should not be confused with what the holy scriptures actually say.Mans interpretations have no place in understanding Gods Word.It is by grace alone that we come to acquire an accurate knowledge of the truth.Only God can show us and help us understand His Word.There is only one interpretation,not many.

Genesis 40:8 "We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."

 

[icebuddy]

The verse isn't quoting the biblical Yeshua and serves as the writer's interpretation. When Yeshua continuously says his god sent him, his god instructed him, his god loved him, his god blessed him, his god gave him......we don't assume he himself is "God"...He's telling you plainly what his nature is.

Thats exactly what the Jews thought. How can a man, born of a woman, be from heaven above too... They where wrong by focusing upon Jesus's humanity.

Not according to your scripture. He clearly acknowledges the fact that he has a god that sent him. In order to be sent there must be a sender. But we know that according to your scripture that even after ascension he holds that he has a god.

If you punch your fist into a wall, through to the other side, could I not say you sent your fist through the wall? Gods Eternal Word is part of God too.

Nothing in the OT has anything to do with the biblical Yeshua. When you read all in the the OT that is attributed to Yeshua...and you read them in context you don't arrive at the conclusion they're talking about him unless you're approaching the scripture with preconceived ideas/understandings.

Sorry you dont see them as I do... It is very clear to me and Jewish/Christians that they do... its hard not to see Jesus in the OT when one believes the answers are at the end of the book.(New Testament)

This too has been dealt with in this thread and after many discussions breaking down the Greek as well as what we find in the Aramaic Pe****ta Jhn. 1:1 does not equate to the biblical Yeshua being "God"

I see it as different. It is so clear to me. In a jewish culture back in the day, for one to "Forgive Sin", be called "a god", Savior, Rock, shepherd of the Jewish people, pre-existant, and to have come from heaven should be put to death for Claiming equality to God, and he was. The Jewish people of the day saw Jesus Claiming equality to God and even to be God himself. You can say they where wrong or right, but they Did. I just agree that he was who they all saw him claiming to be... God

One does not need to be Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Pagan etc to have an understanding of your scripture or the context of the stories/history written.

Since "My Scripture" says that the Holy Spirit would help the believer, then wouldnt you agree that ones with this helper might just see it differently than the ones without? You see, we believe God is helping us understand his book. BTW, someone has to be wrong.

I've given a few chapters and verses already. I touched on the ascension of the biblical Yeshua and the store laid out in Revelation 5 which shows that even after his ascension it show he has a god.

I agree, Jesus is the man who mediates for us. He was God, emptied himself to become man, died and was resurrected as a man, now he mediates as a man to God the Father. Jesus knows what its like to be a man and to be God, he is the perfect mediator. Now when he hands everything back to the Father at the end, only then will he stop his role as mediator and God will be all and all as he was before the world began... Easy enough to me

Actually it says (with). That takes on a whole new meaning.

With is not in the Greek. Its and Filler word

BTW - what religion are you? Whats your purpose of being on this page...?

PS - The above are my beliefs and I hold them to be true

 

[Jensen]

If you punch your fist into a wall, through to the other side, could I not say you sent your fist through the wall? Gods Eternal Word is part of God too.

How does that explanation prove Jesus is God....it doesn't.

I see it as different. It is so clear to me. In a jewish culture back in the day, for one to "Forgive Sin", be called "a god", Savior, Rock, shepherd of the Jewish people, pre-existant, and to have come from heaven should be put to death for Claiming equality to God, and he was. The Jewish people of the day saw Jesus Claiming equality to God and even to be God himself. You can say they where wrong or right, but they Did. I just agree that he was who they all saw him claiming to be... God

And strangely enough you do not believe Jesus when he says differently. Why do you believe Jesus' opposers over Jesus? Is it because it supports your preconceived view and that is what you believe because you would rather believe what you want it to say than what Jesus actually says?

Why not believe Jesus instead of his opposers? He said....

John 17 King James Version


17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:


(notice here that Jesus is speaking to the Father, and he calls himself his Son)




2 As thou( this would be the Father) hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he(Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou (the Father) hast given him.


3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (thee here is the Father....remember he is speaking to the Father) the only true God, (and now while still speaking to the Father calls the Father the only true God) and Jesus Christ, whom thou ( thou is God again that Jesus is speaking to) hast sent. (and that God sent him, Jesus Christ.)


4 I have glorified thee (Jesus here is still speaking to God the Father)on the earth: I have finished the work which thou (this would be God ) gavest me to do.


5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (and here Jesus does not say that he is God, only that he receive the glory that he had before the world was.)


And so why not believe Jesus and what he says instead of his opposers?

Since "My Scripture" says that the Holy Spirit would help the believer, then wouldnt you agree that ones with this helper might just see it differently than the ones without? You see, we believe God is helping us understand his book. BTW, someone has to be wrong.

Why is that those that say they are led by the Holy Spirit do not agree on what they have learned with the help of the Holy Spirit? They should be in exact harmony on their beliefs and as we have seen, they are not.

I agree, Jesus is the man who mediates for us. He was God, emptied himself to become man, died and was resurrected as a man, now he mediates as a man to God the Father. Jesus knows what its like to be a man and to be God, he is the perfect mediator. Now when he hands everything back to the Father at the end, only then will he stop his role as mediator and God will be all and all as he was before the world began... Easy enough to me

So you believe that when he hands all back to God that he, Jesus, will become God with God. That is will be God? But until that happens he is not yet God?

With is not in the Greek. Its and Filler word

BTW - what religion are you? Whats your purpose of being on this page...?

PS - The above are my beliefs and I hold them to be true

You really shouldn't be asking others what their religion is.

They may be your beliefs but that doesn't mean they are true.

And why shouldn't he be on this page?

God bless....

 

[stillsong]

The problem facing interested people such as myself that believes Christianity is one of the valid paths to spiritual development, walking the master's path, carrying a cross similar to the one he is reported to bear, is what do you see the Bible as, a story, a myth, or a set of instructions for leading the spiritual life.
If Jesus was here now, my sense is that he would want us to stop arguing and start having a passover celebration with dancing and food and wine. All of this was part of his ministry. He taught people to celebrate life and joy and love and compassion.
Jesus never left a written word for scholars to study. He was living life fully as he was guided from within. Could this be a better way of honoring Jesus, to celebrate the sacredness of life?

 

[Muffled]

But if you believe the HS inspired the "N.T.", and since Jesus on numerous occasions refers to "the Father" in terms that are separate from himself, then Jesus simply cannot be God. One might argue that Jesus is of God, but that's simply not the same as being God.

Also, Paul's writings you gotta be careful with since he uses dualistic statements frequently, which undoubtedly reflected his Hellenistic education. For example, at one point he says to obey all authority because all authority is from God, but if you take that literally I think you can see where there could be a problem.

I beleive you are laboring nder a delusion. A separateness in concept does not mean a separate person. For instance I have a concept of myself in Alabama that is different from my concept of myself in NH but I am still the same person. My previous self was definitely in a separate place, lol.

It depends on what the context means by "of God." God is one so anything that is of God is God except for certain things that are not God in their essence. Take the Word of God for instance. In its essence it is very God but once it is communicated to another person it is not. So say I quote God as saying "I am the one who is" that word was part of the essence of God but when I quote it it is not; it is simply my quote.

I believe that is difficult to discern but I will say this about the Paraclete: He uses the information in our brain to make His statements so it would not be impossible for them to have a Hellenistic background but all such information must pass the Holy Spirit's test of veracity.

 

[Muffled]

Of course Jesus is not God!
Check this-

"He asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matt 13:16/17)

See, if he really was God, he'd have corrected him.

I believe the two truths are compatible which means Jesus has no reson to correct him. He spoke a truth and Jesus accepted it as truth. Now you would have to show why you think Jesus should add the other truth to it. Is Peter less likely to follow Jesus without knowing that He is God in the flesh? Also is it not possible that Jesus equate the term Son of God with God? I certainly do. I don't see how Jesus could be the Son of God without being God.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus said to his disciples as they approached Jerusalem- "They're going to crucify me in there"
So, knowing they were going to execute him anyway on a blasphemy charge for calling himself the Son of God, he might as well have gone the whole hog and said he WAS God, because he had nothing to lose.
But no, he maintained he was the SON of God right to the end because he WASN'T God..

"..the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
'I am' said Jesus.
The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked.
You have heard the blasphemy" (Mark 14:61-63)

I beleive Jesus knew that the Pharisees would interpret Son of God as God and they did.

 

[metis]

I beleive you are laboring nder a delusion. A separateness in concept does not mean a separate person. For instance I have a concept of myself in Alabama that is different from my concept of myself in NH but I am still the same person. My previous self was definitely in a separate place, lol.

Sorry, but the above analogy doesn't even get close to fitting what we're dealing with. If I talk about "my father", then it is very clear that I am referring to a separate person other than myself even though we're related. If I say that I don't know when the "end times" will happen but that "my father" knows, then it's obvious I'm talking about another person even though we're related.

Therefore, for you to say that I'm operating under some sort of "delusion" is quite misplaced.

 

[icebuddy]

I am a Baptist. My point was that arguing only that Jesus is not God is not enough. I have no firm Trinitarian position myself as I have never seen the necessity to, but to resolve the issue it takes more than claims Jesus is not God. It must also be shown he is merely a man. While the former might have enough gray to support doubt the latter is impossible and we end up with the former by default. I don't normally argue for or against the Trinity. I attempt to clarify the argumentation about it.

Good to know, i was trying to figure your thoughts out and it was very hard. Thanks for your answer.

 

[icebuddy]

Tom, I checked back and you didn't use or post any verses in your message that I answered, and so why the objection of my using Isaiah to show that men can be called gods, and so there is no reason to assume that Jesus is God when being called god as we are not god when called god. That was my point when using that verse.

Do you think we should be putting our Trust into other gods? i ask this because i do put my trust in Jesus and many reduce him to a god here as a demi-god or Something more than a man but less than "the God". It seems to me that the term "god" has been watered down to the point of meaning anything... However, the Jews of Jesus's time knew the language and all said he was claiming "Equality to God" or Claiming to be God... To say Jesus who is the Image of God is expressing 'a god" lesser than "The God" sounds odd to me...? Does your Jesus who is the image of God exactly express the Father or does he fall short? (See my thoughts and why i struggle with yours?)

God is the writer, the author of the bible. And so will use whatever verses I see that support the view that I am giving. Especially, if it is clear and to the point and so easier to understand then verses whose meanings are more vague and therefore easier to make a mistake in understanding.

Isiah was a prophet and he used the term "mighty God" of Jesus and Jehovah both. How do you explain that exactly? You said God is the writer, what did God mean here?

Tom, the bible does say we were made in the image of God.

Yes, which i personally believe we are made after Jesus's image since he is the Image of God. Jesus isnt In the Image of God, he "IS" the Image of God.

As for Jesus being in a humbled state, he is still, while in heaven at the right hand of God, subject to his God and Father, and therefore in a humbled state, just as we will still be when resurrected into God's Kingdom. The difference is that Jesus has a higher position then we will have being that he is the Son of God and the Christ and intercessor. Remember the verse that say that the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God? It is clear....no room for misunderstanding.

You are a woman and i am a man. If we where married, I would be your head and you would be submissive to me in a Godly world, correct? Does that make you any less Human or Manlike? Jesus Chose to empty himself, Jesus wasnt forced into submition. ... i see no room for misunderstanding that, and i agree that Jesus submits himself to the Father, but its not because he is forced to or because he is inferior to the Father in nature or being.

 

[icebuddy]

so I believe that concerning the trinity I am not wrong on my views on it. Jesus is the image of God, and so is mankind, and this does not make us that which we and Jesus are the image of.

Jesus "IS" the Image of God (To see Jesus is to see the Father/God)
We are made in that Image. (To see us is to see our Creator at work)
To say Jesus is the Image of God as you/me are is very dangerous, i hope thats not what you mean...

I looked up verse....Hebrews 1:3 KJV3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Awesome verse.

And it says that he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty....that is Jesus sat at the right hand of God. Not that he was or is or became God. He sat next to his God.

Yes, Jesus emptied himself of the rights of God to become a man. Now he is a man who mediates for us until he hands everything back to the Father and God becomes all in all as he was before creation... BTW, the term right hand in scripture means power or authority. You have this mental picture of Jesus sitting next to the Father like a vise president sits next to the president. But in the Trinity the Father is always #1, Son#2, HS#3. There is a Hierarchy within the Godhead, i dont disagree. What i disagree with is who Jesus is exactly in nature. When you look to the Image of God, the one who expresses the Father 100%, do you say 'God" or do you say "a god". Does your view of Jesus have you undervaluing the very Image of God...?

That is why Thomas saw this and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God".

One is not an image of himself, but can only be an image of someone other than himself.

So who do you see when you look to Jesus?

IF Jesus were God, there would never be a need to say that he is the image of God, as he would be the original thing, which he is not.

Jesus is the "Only" Image of God. Your thoughts here sound very odd to me. When I look in the mirror, I see my image... When I look to the Image of God, I see God.

Hebrews 1:3 does not support that Jesus is God, but the one that was sat at the right hand of God.

Again, your mind in locked into seeing ranking and not nature or being. You are looking at Jesus who humbled himself and nothing else. Even the Father tells us who Jesus really is at Hebrews 1:10-12 and quotes a passage of YHWH and applies that this was Jesus.

Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD(YHWH) is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Who is the Jewish Shepherd?

Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Who is our Shepherd? The New Testament Reveals the Old Testament.

PS - These are my beliefs and I believe them to be True

 

[idav]

I beleive Jesus knew that the Pharisees would interpret Son of God as God and they did.

And he disagreeed with the pharissees on that point. Became a semantic bickering of what it means to be sons of the most high.

 

[icebuddy]

#1 We serve Jehovah God but no one can come to God unless they come through Jesus Christ first.

Who is your Shepherd?

#2 No,Jesus is not God.Jesus is in agreement with the Father by way of the holy spirit.
Jesus did not follow the Jews as a cloud by night.Only by day.It was fire by night.

Do you believe that this was Jesus as the bible says?

In Hebrews 1:10 it is referring to the son,Jesus Christ.This can be verified if you go 8 versus back to Hebrews 1:2

Yes I agree 100%. So if you keep reading Heb1:10-12 what verse did the Father quote and say was Jesus? Read with Ps 102:25-27

God created all things through Jesus Christ.Jesus Christ was as a master worker along side Jehovah God when all was being created.This can be confirmed in Proverbs 8:22-31.

We disagree at some point here. Jehovah God says he was all alone during creation and that no one was with him... Is44:24
So i would conclude that God was never without his Wisdom. God brought forth or produced what he always possessed.
Since God says He was alone and that no one was with him during creation, I would also conclude that this wisdom is part of God and not separate.

Hebrews 1:5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

Thats a good verse. So that begs the question: To what angel did he say you are my son? i read this as the answer is none. It is also noteworthy that angels where already present when Jesus became Gods son. Pointing to his birth on earth

So we can obviously see that Solomon and Jesus are not the same right?

I dont always see the same as you do... Sorry about that...

#3 The image of God is not a literal image or physical.Spirits are invisible.When mankind was made in the image of God they were not made to look like invisible spirits.It is speaking of His attributes.Gods qualities.Jesus' action's speak volumes about him and who he represents.God is love and so is Jesus.God is the possessor of all Wisdom.Jesus was very wise.God is Just.Jesus speaks for Justice.God is all powerful.Jesus displayed and showed his power that came from God.

You are making something simple into a complex idea. Jesus is the image of the invisible(Spiritual) God. To see Him is to see the Father. Very easy to me... Wouldnt you agree that because of the word "Invisible" is used lets us know Jesus is the physical Image of the invisible God?

It is by grace alone that we come to acquire an accurate knowledge of the truth.Only God can show us and help us understand His Word.There is only one interpretation,not many.

i agree, what authority do you believe is helping you?

PS - as always, these are my beliefs and I believe them to be true

 

[Nada]

Who is your Shepherd?

Do you believe that this was Jesus as the bible says?

Yes I agree 100%. So if you keep reading Heb1:10-12 what verse did the Father quote and say was Jesus? Read with Ps 102:25-27

We disagree at some point here. Jehovah God says he was all alone during creation and that no one was with him... Is44:24
So i would conclude that God was never without his Wisdom. God brought forth or produced what he always possessed.
Since God says He was alone and that no one was with him during creation, I would also conclude that this wisdom is part of God and not separate.

Thats a good verse. So that begs the question: To what angel did he say you are my son? i read this as the answer is none. It is also noteworthy that angels where already present when Jesus became Gods son. Pointing to his birth on earth

I dont always see the same as you do... Sorry about that...

You are making something simple into a complex idea. Jesus is the image of the invisible(Spiritual) God. To see Him is to see the Father. Very easy to me... Wouldnt you agree that because of the word "Invisible" is used lets us know Jesus is the physical Image of the invisible God?

i agree, what authority do you believe is helping you?

PS - as always, these are my beliefs and I believe them to be true

Wow,there's a lot to cover here.
#1 Jesus is my Shepherd.True Christians are his flock.Jehovah is our God.

#2 When Gods angel was leading the Israelites as a cloud by day and fire by night,it was Michael the Archangel who later becomes Jesus Christ in the flesh.The same angel who is mentioned in Jude 9:1 and Daniel 12:1.The great prince.

#3.You know its Jesus by reading the scriptures.Hebrew 1:10 -12 like you said.Now go to verse 13.It says,To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”g ?

We know its Jesus because this is what it says in Mark 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

Romans 8:34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

No one else sits at the right hand of God but Jesus.

#4 When Jehovah God states, " Who formed you since you were in the womb:

“I am Jehovah, who made everything.

I stretched out the heavens by myself,

And I spread out the earth.

Who was with me?

He is not saying that Jesus was not with him.He is speaking of the gods of the people.Jehovah is declaring He is the Almighty and only God.If you go back and read all of chapter 44 in its entirety it is clear and obvious.Jehovah is trying to prove a point to everyone in doubtHere are some examples from Ch.44

6*This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies:

‘I am the first and I am the last.

There is no God but me.

*7*Who is there like me?

Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me!

From the time I established the people of long ago,
Let them tell both the things to come
And what will yet happen.

So here he is saying it like it is.He is the only true God and there is no one like Him.He goes on to prove how he knows the future and no one can tell it like He can.He not only tells the future but He gives us specific names as in this passage in Chapter 45


45 This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus,

Whose right hand I have taken hold of

To subdue nations before him,

To disarm kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:

We know from scripture that it is Cyrus who God anoints and uses to conquer the Kingdom of Babylon and kill Belshazzar,grandson of King Nebuchadnezzar.

So you see Jehovah is just telling it like it is.There is no one who can do what He does.He does it alone.He is all powerful and the Almighty.


We know for sure that Jesus(Michael) was already with him when Jehovah created everything because it is mentioned in Proverbs 8:22-31.Jesus is speaking of being God.s first creation.Jesus also mentions being a master worker along side Jehovah God too.

Also in Genesis 1:26 it says this,Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, It was Michael(Jesus) that Jehovah God was speaking to.

#5 I believe it is God's holy spirit that has helped me obtain an accurate knowledge of the truth.I knew nothing until I begged God for a better understanding of His Word so I may better serve Him and others.

 

[Harikrish]

Only according to the Gospel of John is Jesus seen as a deity. The Synoptic Gospels do not see Jesus as God.

Starting with John 10:30

. The Jews were addressing his claim in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." It is this earlier claim that he was claiming to be god that inflamed the Jews and they moved to stone Jesus.

Jesus tried to appeal to them reminding them of his great works. But he does not address the cause of their anger: ie. his blasphemous claim he is god in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

They make it clear in John 10:33. "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus is forced to come up with a different answer, something more acceptable because his first try was unsatisfactory. Jesus has put his foot in his mouth before.

So he replies with a question in John 10:34 " Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?

It is a bit of convoluted logic that he references to god figuratively calling people gods in Psalms. The man is desperate, his first answer was unsatisfactory and he is about to get stoned. So he brings up past examples where people were also called gods and therein is his justification and rationalism. Thus offering the semantic legality of his claim.
It did not work for him the third time he claimed to be the Christ. The Jews were a bit tired of this and asked that he be crucified. And he was. Final proof he lost all credibility and was punished. Did the Jews judge god or a misguided Jewish rabbi? The fact the Jews are still around. One has to conclude it was the latter.

 

[Harikrish]

In John 8:58 Jesus claims he was there before Abraham. But there were many others before Abraham. So the claim is not so unique. But the people were offended he was claiming to be with God before Abraham was born.

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

But the next verse tells us what he was before Abraham. He was lower than the angels.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

[Nada]

In John 8:58 Jesus claims he was there before Abraham. But there were many others before Abraham. So the claim is not so unique. But the people were offended he was claiming to be with God before Abraham was born.

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

But the next verse tells us what he was before Abraham. He was lower than the angels.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Jesus was in spirit form before Abraham was alive on earth.When Jesus came in the flesh, as the Son of God,he became lower than the angels by becoming human.When Jesus was resurrected after he had been put to death,he received immortal life.He ascended back to heaven where he is once again a spirit form.