Jensen
Active Member
He also said that all his believers would be one with him and God. Are there numerous persons in this trinity? Likely millions or billions? I think not. He was speaking of being one in unity. Read the whole chapter.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
He also said that all his believers would be one with him and God. Are there numerous persons in this trinity? Likely millions or billions? I think not. He was speaking of being one in unity. Read the whole chapter.
allfoak
Alchemist
If that is your complaint i would be happy to discuss it with you.
I'm not sure that this is the thread to use to do it however.
Pick a spot and we will have a go.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
How about the thread called , "the right religion"? I take it we are to discuss the historicity of the bible. Make a post to me in that thread and I will see it and respond (emphatically
)
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
We do believe very different. The WTBS belief has always been strange to me, and I also had a very good internet friend that we agreed to disagree. (We both played hockey)
My question would be at this point: Why do you think the WTBS and JW are the right answer?
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
You can deny the Holy Spirit of being a person, but the bible clearly states the Holy Spirit has a personality.
Act 13:2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.
"The Holy Spirit Said" - Its clear to me that powers or non-personal things dont speak clear sentences. Why does Gods word give the Holy Spirit such personal touches if the Holy Spirit is not personal?
Nada
#
They have all the right answers.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
i dont believe so. You have defined the word "God" in your mind before we even got to the addition part. Why do you insist that our 1 God cannot be like his creation. Example: 1 Universe = Space+time+mater
Parallel : 1 God = Father, Son, Holy Spirit
*** Do you see 3 Universes in that equation or 1? Its not hard to me
Im not Arguing , Im explaining my belief. However, I believe what people do with the trinity is define it in their own terms. like you said 1+1+1=3 but when I say 1x1x1=1 you say thats the worst thing you have heard. Yet you used math to explain My God (Trinity) and then say God is not bound to math because he made it...? Making your statement of 1+1+1=3 absurd in your own words...? Just pointing out what you did
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Hey Jensen,
im just going to explain my belief in parts of your response that might help you understand it better. I have to Drive around allot for work and will try to post 1-2 hours when I can. As you know, 1-2 hours go by so fast on these boards. Anyways...
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
This passage says Jesus is "The Image" not one of many or "in the" image of, but, "THE IMAGE" of the invisible God. If you want to see God, look to Jesus. John 20:28 supports this as well as passages where Jesus says Seen me, youve seen the Father also. I do not disagree that Jesus has attributes of God, i disagree that they are attributes like God in that he was just a man. Although Jesus was a man, in whom was made in the likeness of the creator, he is also the creator in whom all Images where made after. Meaning Jesus is the source of the images not one of them. Hebrews
I ask the question: what did Jesus empty himself of? What was Jesus before he became a man? Thats the real question I believe...
Gods our Rock, Jesus our Rock
Gods our shepherd, Jesus our Shepherd
Gods alone Created, Jesus Created
God is our Strength, Jesus is our Strength
God is my Everything, Jesus is my everything
God is my God, Jesus is NOT my God
Do you see the problem with that? i surely Do...
im just going to explain my belief in parts of your response that might help you understand it better. I have to Drive around allot for work and will try to post 1-2 hours when I can. As you know, 1-2 hours go by so fast on these boards. Anyways...
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
This passage says Jesus is "The Image" not one of many or "in the" image of, but, "THE IMAGE" of the invisible God. If you want to see God, look to Jesus. John 20:28 supports this as well as passages where Jesus says Seen me, youve seen the Father also. I do not disagree that Jesus has attributes of God, i disagree that they are attributes like God in that he was just a man. Although Jesus was a man, in whom was made in the likeness of the creator, he is also the creator in whom all Images where made after. Meaning Jesus is the source of the images not one of them. Hebrews
what does "Form of Man" mean to you. Jesus emptied himself to become the "Form of Man". Do you believe that means he was a man? Then why when the very same passage that says "Form of God" means anything different from God? Phil 2:5-8
I ask the question: what did Jesus empty himself of? What was Jesus before he became a man? Thats the real question I believe...
God only had to Give it back to him. The Bible says Jesus had authority emptied himself of it, only to get it back again by the Father. The Father gave it back to him... Do you believe Jesus had All Authority as the Eternal Word of Life? All things where created by Jesus and for Jesus. Do you really believe that? Who else but God would that be? Who else could say all things are created by me and for me?
Is a husband and Wife equally man(human)? Does the wife then submit to her husband because she wants to or is forced to? Does that make the wife not equal to the man in nature or humanity?(because she submits willingly) BTW, this is Gods Model that he created for us. Why then when Jesus submits to the father say that this somehow disqualifies Jesus from his highest? Is the term "God" a position or a nature to you?
Yes, but Jesus is not just the offspring of David, he is also the source of David. You are seeing Jesus for what he did for us and not who he really is in my opinion.
You answered Jesus, which was a smart answer. If you where in Thomas shoes and Jesus was in front of you. Would you never say to Jesus, "My Lord and My God" as Thomas did. Would you avoid that at all costs?
When I look in the mirror, it reflects an Image that I already have. Yet Jesus is the only visible image of the invisible God. If God where to appear in front of you, you would see Jesus. Thomas Saw this and said to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". (Offspring of David and the source of David)
I will point to the Husband and wife example again. Is the wife any less of mankind when she gets married and submits to her husband? Then they have 1 child, who submits to them both. Are they all part of Mankind, are they all part of the 1 Family? At any point does their submition disqualify them from mankind?
The Bible says everything was Created by Jesus and For Jesus, do you really believe that? It seems to me that your boss example doesnt make sense. Your example would have me wanting to see everything was created by Jesus for the Father... Also the Bible says Jesus is the Boss...
Are you saying that Jesus was not our shepherd until a point in time? That only after Jesus was Given authority that this became true? i say this because all people that have trouble with the Trinity seem to only see Jesus from the point of becoming a man and there after... It seems very strange to me that many will say that Jesus can have all the authority of God, but is not God. Its almost like someone drew a line in the sand that Jesus cant cross.
Gods our Rock, Jesus our Rock
Gods our shepherd, Jesus our Shepherd
Gods alone Created, Jesus Created
God is our Strength, Jesus is our Strength
God is my Everything, Jesus is my everything
God is my God, Jesus is NOT my God
Do you see the problem with that? i surely Do...
Same here, just trying to explain from my eyes (also out of time)
1robin
Christian/Baptist
It is not a matter of belief. It is logic. I had the number two in my mind before I could add 1 + 1, did not make two any less a fact of the equation. My description of God came from the mind of men who lived thousands of years ago. It is so intuitive and sound that secular philosophy has adopted almost an identical description for the generic God concept. Not that any of this has anything to do with the trinity.
What the heck does this have to do with anything? God is not a universe, he created it. It is a natural and finite material composition of billions of impersonal things, God is an infinite immaterial personal being. Where did you get your logical analogy training.
Just for kicks I will give you another argument as ridiculous as the one you gave.
I went back and checked I can't even figure out which side of the argument your even in favor of. I hold a Trinitarian belief so I assumed you were against that, but your weird example analogy suggest you agree with it. I rarely can't even figure out what side of an issue a person is on.
1 + 1 + 1 does = 3 but I didn't say that. I responded that even though true it is not the equation you use for the trinity. 1 God = 1 father x 1 son x 1 spirit. God is (or I should say the Trinitarian God is a) triune being and not an additive property.
The same as we are dualistic beings. I have a soul and a body but am a single person. You are either going to have to deny your math or your soul's existence.
BTW some say we are actually triune being like God. 1 Person but with 1 soul, 1 spirit, 1 body.
Jensen
Active Member
You quote a verse that says that he is the firstborn of all creation....is God ever a firstborn? No, as God is eternal. And Jesus obviously was not, as God created him at a given time, therefore he is not God.
He is the image....I think it says "the" because in this specific verse it is speaking of one individual...Jesus. Otherwise, I see no difference in using " the image" or "in the image".
When looking to Jesus and seeing the Father does not mean what you would like it to mean being that even in the trinity doctrine Jesus is not the Father.
The bible says that we were made in the image of God, not in the image of Jesus. Jesus is the image of God. Man is in the image of God. The difference is that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the bearer of the Gospel.
Jensen
Active Member
When Jesus became a man he was a man, but he was one individual that was a man just as we all are. But also the Son of God, the Messiah. Angels are in the form of God, Jesus is in the form of God, this doesn't mean he is God, just in the form of God, that is in the image of God, just as man is in the image of God. In the form of is just another way of saying in the image of. Remember God is invisible, and so does he really have a literal form?
What did Jesus empty himself of? Not being God, but having his own Will, and took on the Will of God, that is being in obedience, and doing God's Will in all things, including dying for man, and bringing the gospel. What was Jesus before he became a man?....not God being that God is eternal and you yourself sited a verse that says that Jesus was the firstborn of creation, so he had a beginning.
Jensen
Active Member
I think that it was glory that he had with God that was to be given back to him, and this after his resurrection, I believe. The authority that Jesus had, had been given to him by God. And when Jesus' mission is finished than all authority would be given back to God so God would be all in all.
As for your statement "All Authority as the Eternal Word of Life?" I don't know what you mean by that statement.
I am seeing Jesus for what he did for us and not who he really is? You say this in answer to my response stating who he is? Look back and you'll see that I was speaking of who he is and was.
A husband and wife are equally human, I agree with that. But there are many husbands and wives...there is only one God, and therefore there is no one that is equally God being that God is one. If not, there is the hint of more than one God and we know that there is only One God as stated by Jesus in John 17:3.
Yes, Jesus is the offspring of David, but he is the Lord (messiah and savor) of his forefathers also, and that is what that is about. His being the Messiah of those that came before him.
Jensen
Active Member
I think I already answered that. Please look back and see what I said.
If Jesus appeared in front of me I'd see the Son of God, the Christ and Savior, the representative of God. God is invisible we do not literally see Him. Jesus sits at the right-hand of God, this is evident enough that he is not God being that this is after his ascension. (and I've answered that question very recently also)
Sorry you did not understand the boss example, as it makes perfect sense to me.
God gave all authority to Jesus and so if Jesus created it would be at God's direction even when God had it in mind for Jesus. This still would not make Jesus God just because he created with Jesus in mind. Jesus isn't his God, just as you are not your boss because of working/creating for them
Jensen
Active Member
Jesus has a beginning and so there probably was a beginning to his being our shepherd also. There was a beginning to when he became our intercessor, and so why not a beginning as our shepherd. When? I haven't thought about that yet.
You said this...."all people that have trouble with the Trinity seem to only see Jesus from the point of becoming a man and there after..." I disagree, being that most people, including those that do not believe in the trinity believe that Jesus was God's first creation. This would be before becoming a man.
What seems "strange" to me is those that see Jesus as the God that gave him this authority, as if he were God he would have always had this authority, and would not have had it given to him, nor would have needed it given to him.
God has no beginning (Psalm 90:2) - Jesus had a beginning (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:31-35)
God cannot die (1 Timothy 1:17) - Jesus died (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) - Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15)
No man or woman has ever seen God (1 John 4:12) - Jesus was seen by both men and women (John 1:29)
God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) - Jesus was and is a man (1 Timothy 2:5)
God does not ever need to learn (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus had to grow and learn (Hebrews 5:8-9)
God does not need to be saved (Isaiah 45:7; 43:11) - Jesus needed salvation (Hebrews 5:7)
God cannot grow weary (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus grew weary (John 4:6)
God does not sleep (Psalm 121:2-4) - Jesus slept (Matthew 8:24)
God's power is unlimited (Isaiah 45:5-7) - Jesus was limited in his power (John 5:19)
God knows all (Isaiah 46:10) - Jesus had limited knowledge (Mark 13:32)
Jensen
Active Member
the one who alone is God (John 5:44).
This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, John 17:3.
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Tim. 2:5.
It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us, Rom. 8:34.
My father is greater than all, John 10:29.
My Father is greater than I, John 14:
Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God, Matt 19:17. He denies that he is God.
Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God, John 20:17.
This is scripture that says that the Jesus has a God. Not that he is God.
This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, John 17:3.
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Tim. 2:5.
It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us, Rom. 8:34.
My father is greater than all, John 10:29.
My Father is greater than I, John 14:
Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God, Matt 19:17. He denies that he is God.
Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God, John 20:17.
This is scripture that says that the Jesus has a God. Not that he is God.
Nada
#
You are so correct, but people who have been mislead by false doctrines cannot see this truth.It is just like the holy scriptures explains.
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
1 Timothy 4:1,2. However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron.
And that is exactly how the minds of those who are mislead by false doctrines have become.Their consciences are as they have been seared with a hot iron.When you burn something it leaves a scorch mark that is almost impossible to remove.Blinded by false doctrines.
The holy scriptures tells us that Jesus is the Son of God, and God the Almighty, is his Father, and God.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you need to reread the "Shma." Of course One God means One God. How could one understand it differently?
I believe "I am God" would not work because of the confusion with the body. That is why the devil will try hard to glorify the body of Jesus as though it were God when the truth is that God is a Spirit. It is the Spirit of God residing in Jesus that speaks the oneness and the body is only a tool for doing so.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe every day of the week is a seventh day depending on where one starts counting. I once went to an Islamic prayer meeting on Friday. I have no problem worshipping God on a friday.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe John 17:3 says no such thing. You will have to prove it does.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm not buying it because all I see with the above is a fabrication, and it could have very easily been explained by Jesus and understood by the apostles if he had said and taught them that "I am God".