Did Jesus say he was God???

[Jensen]

Jensen said: ↑
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (and here Jesus does not say that he is God, only that he receive the glory that he had before the world was.)

And why not address verse 5 and what it says and what I said? Instead you go to other verse and speak of the word. Jesus in verse 5 speaks of his father and does not call himself God. That is why I gave the verse, to show that Jesus is not God.

I do not see it your way. All I see is that the Word, who was God and with God, emptied himself to become what you now point at as "Not God", but what I see going on is that Jesus was God and emptied himself to be in this position by choice. What I believe you are doing is never seeing Jesus as God who emptied himself in the first place. That is why I pointed out the JW posted by BS where he believed Jesus was an angel, then a man, then an angel again. At any point could we say Jesus was never an angel? Do you see that parallel?

Again you did not address verse 5 ( it is above) but go to verses other than the one I was asking you about....it does not support that Jesus is God, which you were claiming in a previous post.

You keep pointing to verses of Jesus in his "empty" state and expect me to focus on Jesus at his lowest point of being and then stay there.

Actually, I expect nothing of you but that you try to understand what others are saying, it doesn't mean you have to accept it or believe it, just try to understand what it is that others believe.

The Bible says Jesus was God, in the Form of God, Mighty God, is Jehovah YHWH of the Old testament, Creator with the Father, then emptied himself to become a Jewish Man like every Jewish man as the father as his God, and you only point to these passages where Jesus was a man and I agree at this point Jesus was a man lower than even the angels, but this doesnt take away from Jesus being God with the Father before all of creation. Your staying in a place where Jesus was lower than all the angels and pointing to these passages saying "Jesus is not God" and then continue as if he was never God or has anything to do with being Eternal as 1John1:1-4 says the Eternal Word of Life became flesh. What i see is "God to Man to Mediator back to God" to be basic. You point out the middle of my belief and dont understand that I also believe that, but thats only part of my belief. In full our God is really our Savior too.

I have been pointing to verses said by Jesus and others about who really is God and who is the Son. Jesus is the Son and still is the Son although ascended and at the right hand of God.

You question is bizarre to me because even the Disciples didnt agree 100% on everything and the Spirit was in full swing and not drowned out by things of this world as they are today. What would you have said to them? i do not have all the answers, but i can explain what I believe and why. There are many that believe as I do and we all believe Gods Spirit is in us. I would like to add that even a new believer has the Holy Spirit and when he/she is young might have zeal to express their belief and it may not be 100% accurate because they are on milk and not meat. I was the same way in 1997, even today I am still learning. That is why we must look back to the early church Fathers and their creeds.

You have answered my question about the holy spirit....in that you said this above..."There are many that believe as I do and we all believe Gods Spirit is in us." That is that those that are filled with the holy spirit are those that are in agreement with you and your denomination.

(will cut the post at this point, so it does not get too long.

 

[Jensen]

John 1:1 has God and with God. The Father points Jesus out as YHWH of the Old Testament. Jesus says before Abraham "I AM". The Eternal Word of Life became Flesh. Nothing was created that is created apart from Jesus. I can go On and On, but you dont see what i see. Im not even sure how your looking at things to begin with. For example, what is satan blinding people from seeing at 2Cor4:4-6? Really... He blinds people from seeing that Jesus is the "Image of God".... Many here will say Image of God is no different from you and me being Image of God... Really? They why is Satan blinding them from seeing it if it only means Jesus was a Man "In the Image of God" just like you and me and not the only "Image of God"... ?

Genesis 1:27Revised Standard Version (RSV)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Hebrews 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I am not adding to the bible. i am expressing my belief... You say Im mean from time to time, but look at what you are saying to me... You also have to believe Jesus was something before and man... The Jehovahs Witnesses would say Jesus was the Angel/Man, yet thats not in the bible directly either. However they are expressing their belief and point to verses of why they believe it... i do no different

Why do I have to believe Jesus was something before a man? Why? Can I not just believe that he is the Son of God, our Savior that died for us like the bible says?

Is that Biblical?

There are situations when one is not able to gather with like-minded believers. Is that going to make them less of a believer?

i do not think God the Father will find me lifting Jesus up as God to be a problem. I look to Jesus and say, "My Lord and My God" with no worries. I see Jesus as Alpha and Omega as seen in Revelation 22. Dont forget that the bible always says the Devil blinds people from seeing who Jesus really is, never does it say the Devil has people lifting Jesus up too high, as if that was even possible...

I really don't care this or that about the devil, I don't build my beliefs around what he says or does. I agree that God would not see a problem with us lifting up Jesus as long as it weren't to the position of being God himself.

i dont see how one can read that passage and not see Jesus as part of the Equation

that is True God. You are using the English word "and" to drive a wedge between True God and Jesus. Read Titus 2:13-14 Jesus is our Great God

I can, as in that verse Jesus says ....know thee the only true God....he calls thee the only true God, thee would be someone other than himself. The one he is speaking to.

John 17:3 RSV


3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

 

[outhouse]

Can I not just believe that he is the Son of God

yes but first you need to understand that back then that term was applied to mortal men.

the son of god concept was already in use before jesus was born.


when jesus was alive he knew the emperor to be the son of god

 

[Jensen]

yes but first you need to understand that back then that term was applied to mortal men.

the son of god concept was already in use before jesus was born.


when jesus was alive he knew the emperor to be the son of god

Yes, we are all sons and daughters of God, and all in the image of God.
Jesus was different in that he was the Christ and Savior, in addition to being the Son of God.
Jesus was like us in every way....like his brethren, that is in the flesh just as we are.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus was different in that he was the Christ and Savior,

No.

Jews state he was not that person, and Isho was a Galilean Aramaic Jew.

The unknown Hellenistic gospel authors made that claim, but not a one ever met or knew Isho.

 

[outhouse]

But to stay in context, Jesus/Isho never would have made any claim to be god.

 

[Jensen]

But to stay in context, Jesus/Isho never would have made any claim to be god.

I agree. He wouldn't and didn't.

 

[JM2C]

No. Jews state he was not that person, and Isho was a Galilean Aramaic Jew.

Of course they would say that. They’ve been denying this ever since.

Mt 28:11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened.
Mt 28:12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money,
Mt 28:13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’
Mt 28:14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.”
Mt 28:15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

Matthew offers this section as the origin of the "widely circulated" Jewish explanation for the empty tomb, still common in the days of Justin Martyr.

The unknown Hellenistic gospel authors made that claim, but not a one ever met or knew Isho.

Do you have a link to this "unknown Hellenistic gospel"?

 

[JM2C]

But to stay in context, Jesus/Isho never would have made any claim to be god.

He did in John 10:30 and that was the reason He was accused of blasphemy in vv 31-33 ‘cause He claimed to be God, the Son of God is God in verse 36. Blasphemy according to Lev. 24:16 is punishable by stoning to death.

The Son of God from eternity is God and they are ONE a united ONE/Echad. God says to His Son “Thy throne, O God” –Heb 1:8.

 

[Jensen]

Heb 1:8 is quoting Psalms 45:6 in which it says...
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness:
Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia;
Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made thee glad.

It is not God speaking to the Son, but the Psalmist speaking to God. Look at it closely.... and so how does one explain this with Heb 1:8?

 

[Jensen]

He did in John 10:30 and that was the reason He was accused of blasphemy in vv 31-33 ‘cause He claimed to be God, the Son of God is God in verse 36. Blasphemy according to Lev. 24:16 is punishable by stoning to death.

The Son of God from eternity is God and they are ONE a united ONE/Echad. God says to His Son “Thy throne, O God” –Heb 1:8.

It does not say this in verse 36. What it actually says is....

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

No where does it say "the Son of God is God" in verse 36.

 

[Muffled]

Being that it was said by Jesus, maybe you need to convince Jesus that it says no such thing....good luck with that.


John 17:3King James Version


3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (notice here that he is speaking to someone other than himself) the only true God, (and this "thee" that he is speaking to is the only true God) and Jesus Christ, (that would be someone (Jesus) other than that only true God) whom thou (speaking to the only true God again) hast sent.


Nowhere did Jesus say he is God. You convince Jesus first....Okay?

I believe, I Jesus am fully convinced that I am God in the Flesh.

In case you haven't noticed, those words interpsersed throughout the text are your words as interpretation and your interpretation is absolutely incorrect.

"he is speaking to someone other than himself" I believe this is incorrect although it may appear that way to you, God in the body is fully capable of addressing God out of the body without having to become someone else.

" (that would be someone (Jesus) other than that only true God)" I believe that is an incorrect assuption on your part.

 

[Muffled]

In Answer to John 5:18 ( I read the entire chapter and no where does it say that Jesus is God.)

In John 10:36 he does say who he is....
JOHN 10:

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


In the future Tom, I will not be re-answering what I've answered before.
The Thomas issue was already answered, if you wish to look back at back posts....

I believe in order to be the Son of God He must be God since God is not a physical person and does not have sons as men do and because the sonship has to be of God which means it has to be God.

John 5:18 says "equal with God" which means God in my book or are you trying to claim that there is something esle equal with God.

 

[Muffled]

I am one in consciousness or the source, everything is part of the source, I can do nothing without the source.......now am I saying I am the source ?.

I believe concousness is the essence of the source and the consiousness is the same. So the answer is yes.

 

[outhouse]

Do you have a link to this "unknown Hellenistic gospel"?

The NT does not have a known author other then Paul and Tim and a few others mentioned in 7 of Pauls undisputed epistles.

 

[outhouse]

Matthew offers this section as the origin of the "widely circulated" Jewish explanation for the empty tomb, still common in the days of Justin Martyr.

Yet historically we have no idea what happened to his body.

There was no resurrection mythology originally, as the ending of Mark made no mention of it. It was added later.

It is my opinion, that you had some believing in a spiritual resurrection mythology, which later turned into a physical one in some circles.

Had this been observed, it would be all over Mark, beginning to end, and it would have been in all historians work during this time period. Yet almost nothing was written about it until 60 ish years after his death, and then they are vague about it.

And so unimportant, not one historian writes about, and what we do see only recognizes Pilate as murdering him.

 

[outhouse]

He did in John 10:30 and that was the reason He was accused of blasphemy in vv 31-33 ‘cause He claimed to be God, the Son of God is God in verse 36.

The community that wrote John in many parts were far removed from Jesus life, and they never heard a word from him, nor ever witnessed him.

So no he did not say anything in John with certainty.

Also, "son of god" was already in use at that time by the Emperor, he was called "son of god" before jess was even born

We also know the authors were competing for Proselytes trying to take followers away from the Emperor when John was finished being compiled and edited.

Blasphemy according to Lev. 24:16 is punishable by stoning to death.

And yet he died a Roman crime of sedition for causing trouble in the temple. Not that. That was added later, long after the fact because this new movement wanted to divorce Judaism.

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree. He wouldn't and didn't.

Of course He did. That is the 'man form' Jesus, did. Jeshua had authority to completely change the 'rules' of the religion in the area, this only comes with Divine authority. I don't think people quite understand sometimes how important these 'rules' were to not only much of the priesthood, but many average people as well. Jeshua was breaking rules left and right, and outright commanding us to do the same..remember his disciples working on the Sabbath? That's a major thing*, not like what color socks one chooses.
Keep in mind as well, this is 'man form' Jesus. Jesus is self incarnated in human form, that's why He has the same name as the 'father', the 'father' is Him in Spirit form.

*For anyone placing strict adherence on this. This does not necessarily indicate that Yeshuas followers were all strict 'law' adherents previous to Jesus's 'commandments'.

 

[metis]

Generally speaking, there were three main groups within "the Way" during the 1st century, and they were Jews, gentiles, another group called "God-Fearers" (in English). The latter often kept at least parts of the Law even prior to conversion whereas most gentiles undoubtedly didn't.

I mention this because the observance of the Law undoubtedly varied between these groups, plus there was a challenge as to how to blend these three into "one body", as Paul called it? Needless to say, it would have been quite a challenge that could have derailed the early church by splintering it. For better or worse, Paul came up with a solution, which involved dropping the requirements of most of the Law for most of those in the church, and gradually that became the norm.

 

[outhouse]

Generally speaking, there were three main groups within "the Way" during the 1st century, and they were Jews, gentiles, another group called "God-Fearers" (in English). The latter often kept at least parts of the Law even prior to conversion whereas most gentiles undoubtedly didn't.

Excellent points

As well the Gate Keepers.

Judaism was diverse and multi cultural, it cannot be emphasized enough. he definition of first century Judaism could fill a book and still have errors.

Jew
Hellenistic Jew
Zealots, Aramaic Jews
Essenes
Sadducees
Pharisees
Proselytes, of all different variation.
God Fearers
Gate Keepers

And more, that is just what we know in vague detail. And many of these groups had sub sects and divisions within.

How accepting to Hellenism was one division many of these groups had.