Did Jesus say he was God???

[Jensen]

Micah 5:4 - American Standard Version

“And he [the Messiah] shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God:”


1 Corinthians 11:3 - New American Standard Bible

“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.”

2 Corinthians 11:31 - New American Standard Bible

“The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.”

Ephesians 1:3 - New American Standard Bible

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,”

Ephesians 1:17 - New American Standard Bible

“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.”

1 Peter 1:3 - New American Standard Bible

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”

Revelation 3:12 - New American Standard Bible

“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.”

Since you say "I believe..." often, what is more important...what you believe or what the bible says...?

 

[icebuddy]

Jensen said:#8921

Jensen,
They Changed the format and all the #'s are different too. This message is the last one and going forward that I have figured out how to view. im going to print our messages and try to make 1 smaller post hitting on our main topics. Anyways, Just wanted you to know that Im still around, just busy with Thanksgiving/Christmas Seasonal Items.

Hope All is well...

PS - I just saw a funky you tube video about monster drinks logo (each slash, 3 of them) are hebrew for the #6... They also have a funky symbol for the "o" on Monster too. Anyways, i dont drink Monster Drinks or any soda Items...

 

[icebuddy]

I agree. He wouldn't and didn't.

Real Quick: Jesus didnt claim to be many things that people believe that he is today. For Example: Jesus never said he was an angel, or Savior, or King, or Lord, or many things that some assume today. However, Jesus did ask people who do you say I am, and if the answer was a good one, he blessed them for seeing.

i bring this up because many people get hung up on Jesus as only a man and view him in only the few years he preached on earth. Yet the bible is clear that Jesus existed before he became the Firstborn of all creation. (Born of Mary) My point being this: Jesus never said he was an Angel, so should Jehovahs Witnesses just ignore that? Examine your own beliefs and understanding, im sure everyone here has a belief about Jesus that he did not say he was....?

 

[Jensen]

Hi Icebuddy, Yeah, I find this new site a little too confusing. So have lost interest in it somewhat.
No not everyone....Jesus said that he is the Son of God, so that is what I believe.

 

[psychoslice]

I think we all become the Son of God when we are self realized, that is when we realize that we are one in God, its only while we are separate that we believe we are without God, its all in the mind.

 

[Muffled]

Real Quick: Jesus didnt claim to be many things that people believe that he is today. For Example: Jesus never said he was an angel, or Savior, or King, or Lord, or many things that some assume today. However, Jesus did ask people who do you say I am, and if the answer was a good one, he blessed them for seeing.

i bring this up because many people get hung up on Jesus as only a man and view him in only the few years he preached on earth. Yet the bible is clear that Jesus existed before he became the Firstborn of all creation. (Born of Mary) My point being this: Jesus never said he was an Angel, so should Jehovahs Witnesses just ignore that? Examine your own beliefs and understanding, im sure everyone here has a belief about Jesus that he did not say he was....?

I don't believe Jesus has to say that He is anything so the fact that He doesn't is not a credible argument for saying that He isn't. For instance He may not have mentioned being "Savior" but the angel announced that He would be. Jesus did recognize being called "Lord" as a requirement in deed and not just in words. Joh 13:13 Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus ever referred to as an angel in any way shape or form but the Qu'ran calls him a messenger which is what an angel is although Mohammed is a messenger and he is not an angel.

 

[Muffled]

I think we all become the Son of God when we are self realized, that is when we realize that we are one in God, its only while we are separate that we believe we are without God, its all in the mind.

I believe we can't become a son of God if we are self realized. My self will not become one with God by mental gymnastics and it certainly is not one with Him now. I can never become one in God either because I am not God. Jesus is one in God and states that in John 14 although He simply says that He is in God. I believe you have a lot of things going on in you mind but the mind is not a generator of God but a receptor of Him. Any mind generated god is an idol.

 

[Harikrish]

Jesus said many thing and made many claims.

Was Jesus Lord, liar and a Lunatic and not The trinity God, Son and Spirit?

Another trinity is supported in the same scriptures, according to C.S. Lewis.

The fact that there are so many references by Jesus to his various titles and as a 30 year old man was unmarried, did not hold a job and every sentence that came out of his mouth praised God. Jesus performed miracles, raised the dead and healed people. Jesus was found guilty of blasphemy and asked to be crucified. Can theses attributes of Jesus suggest an alternate triune of personalities a more morbid trinity of sorts suggesting Jesus was Lord, Liar and Lunatic, all three in One. Sorry, textual criticism.

Scripture proving Jesus was Lord, a liar and a lunatic.


Deuteronomy 18: 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

1. To be put to death one had to be a false prophet. Jesus was put to death for claiming to be something he was not. That is falsehood or lying.

2. Knowing it is already commanded by God to Moses not to suffer false prophets, they must be put to death. Jesus was threatened with stoning for blaspheming several times, he even had to slip away and hide from the mob. But he did not stop calling himself their messiah and Christ. He knew the scriptures as well as the Jews and yet he defied them to follow through which they finally did and asked that he be put to death. Only a lunatic would ignore repeated warnings and take the chance he took. He was crucified as a result of his lunacy.

3. There are many many verses where he is called Lord.

So we have the trilemma, Lord, Liar and a Lunatic.

Please understand even though I am applying critical thinking and textual criticism. What is revealed to me by reading God's word in the Bible is what makes such discussions possible.

 

[icebuddy]

I don't believe Jesus has to say that He is anything so the fact that He doesn't is not a credible argument for saying that He isn't. For instance He may not have mentioned being "Savior" but the angel announced that He would be. Jesus did recognize being called "Lord" as a requirement in deed and not just in words. Joh 13:13 Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus ever referred to as an angel in any way shape or form but the Qu'ran calls him a messenger which is what an angel is although Mohammed is a messenger and he is not an angel.

I agree with you, my point was to show others that they dont put their own beliefs under that same microscope... For example: A JW will say Jesus is an angel, however, Jesus never says he was an angel nor does anyone else for that matter.

 

[icebuddy]

Hey Jensen,
I have about 1 hour today to go over the last few posts. Anyways while i was reading your post I felt that you might be reading some emotions into my writings that may not be there in that way you are receiving them. I have some very close friends that dont believe anything and I debate with them left and right, but I remain friends with them. I could only pray that one of them believe 1/2 of what you do.

Again you did not address verse 5 ( it is above) but go to verses other than the one I was asking you about....it does not support that Jesus is God, which you were claiming in a previous post.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (and here Jesus does not say that he is God, only that he receive the glory that he had before the world was.)

i disagree. God says all through the OT that he will not share his glory with another. But since I have already read your posts, later on you asked me why you should believe Jesus was anything before a man... Yet here we are... What Glory did Jesus have before the world was? The Bible wont let you stay in the "Man Zone" of Jesus's Life. Clearly Jesus had Glory with the Father before he became a man... What Glory do you believe that was?

Actually, I expect nothing of you but that you try to understand what others are saying, it doesn't mean you have to accept it or believe it, just try to understand what it is that others believe

I do understand what you are saying, I just dont think you are completing the process to the fullest. Again, i believe you are not fully explaining yourself or dont want to when it comes to Jesus before he was a man. You use the above verse to say he is not God, yet dont want to go to the conclusion of what his Glory was before the word was made. I just dont see how thats constructive.

I have been pointing to verses said by Jesus and others about who really is God and who is the Son. Jesus is the Son and still is the Son although ascended and at the right hand of God.

Yes, and I agree with you to a point. But in my belief, I believe clearly stated in the bible, that Jesus was God and with God. That Even the Father will say Jesus is/was YHWH with him in the OT. That Jesus is also our Rock, Lord, Savior, Creator, Shepherd, and that everything the Father is, Jesus is also. So much so, that to see Jesus is to see the Father, who expresses God Fully and Exactly and is the image of the invisible God. That is why I believe Thomas said directly to Jesus, "The Lord of me and the God of Me" and Jesus said blessed are those who do not see and believe the same.

You have answered my question about the holy spirit....in that you said this above..."There are many that believe as I do and we all believe Gods Spirit is in us." That is that those that are filled with the holy spirit are those that are in agreement with you and your denomination.

There are many denominations that believe Jesus is God as I do. We may not all agree on what color heaven is, but we agree to disagree on those issues. (For they are not salvation issues for sure) Some may of heard it as the Trinity Umbrella... Anyways, Jesus says some seed fell on different types of Ground and that the ones that fell onto good soil grew. We believe that at different parts of a believers walk that they will have and understand more as they walk with Jesus. That is why when I see those that want to stay focused on Jesus only as a man seems odd to me.

Why do I have to believe Jesus was something before a man? Why? Can I not just believe that he is the Son of God, our Savior that died for us like the bible says

Clearly you posted passages showing Jesus being Glorified with the Father with the Glory he had before the word began. Dont you want to know what that glory is or even think about it? Why stop? Dont you believe Jesus Created all things and that they are created by him and for him? If you do, then you must believe he was something before a man or at least thought of it...

There are situations when one is not able to gather with like-minded believers. Is that going to make them less of a believer?

No, but being a lone sheep could leave you open to wolves and getting lost. Not trying to upset you, just stating what I believe.

I really don't care this or that about the devil, I don't build my beliefs around what he says or does. I agree that God would not see a problem with us lifting up Jesus as long as it weren't to the position of being God himself.

Does the bible say one can lift Jesus up too high or Does the bible say one can fall short? Never do I read that some are blinded by satan in over lifting Jesus up, however, clearly stated are those that are blinded in seeing Jesus as the true image of God. 1 Cor 10 says you shouldnt be ignorant of who Jesus was before he was a man, that Jesus was the Rock that followed the Jews day and Night in the OT. We also know that YHWH or Jehovah is the Jews Rock and he knows of no other Rock but one...

I can, as in that verse Jesus says ....know thee the only true God....he calls thee the only true God, thee would be someone other than himself. The one he is speaking to.

John 17:3 RSV

Eternal Life cant happen "without Jesus" and the Greek Reads

And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God also, likewise(not excluding) Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

You took that very passage and "excluded Jesus" from what is "Eternal Life". Eternal Life is to Know Jehovah revealed as God and Savior. When you read that YHWH or Jehovah is God and Savior do you separate God from Savior saying only Jehovah can be God and not Savior? Then why when you read that our True God is God and Jesus you separate them? Look up the Greek word for "AND" at that passage and get back to me...

I assure you Jesus is True Theos with the Father who he expresses completely and fully. Jesus is either True Theos or he is False Theos. There is no inbetween in the greek...

 

[icebuddy]

Heb 1:8 is quoting Psalms 45:6 in which it says...
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness:
Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia;
Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made thee glad.

It is not God speaking to the Son, but the Psalmist speaking to God. Look at it closely.... and so how does one explain this with Heb 1:8?

Hebrews 1:8-12 the Father clearly points Jesus our as the one spoken of as YHWH of the Old Testament. Why did the Father take a passage out of the Old Testament and quote it of Jesus?

 

[icebuddy]

It does not say this in verse 36. What it actually says is....

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

No where does it say "the Son of God is God" in verse 36.

I find that statement odd...? Jesus is the only "Son of God" born of the Holy Spirit and Mary. Let me ask you a Question: Do men have sons that are not men? Do Dogs have puppies that are not Dogs? These are Gods laws, not mine. So if God had a True Son, would he be anything but God? And this is Jesus after he emptied himself and that is why you hear terms like God/Man for he was both the Son of God and the Son of Man, but only after he Created all things and came down to save us as Jesus. God outsmarted the Devil and was truly our God and Savior.

Jesus was truly saying, If those who where not God could be called Gods, how much more could the True Son of God be called God? I wounder what they would have done if he told them He created Everything and was sustaining their own life by his very existence... Now thats Awesome!

 

[Jensen]

Icebuddy, I don't get why you would post a "like" for a message that says this....."So we have the trilemma, Lord, Liar and a Lunatic."?

 

[Jensen]

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (and here Jesus does not say that he is God, only that he receive the glory that he had before the world was.)

i disagree. God says all through the OT that he will not share his glory with another. But since I have already read your posts, later on you asked me why you should believe Jesus was anything before a man... Yet here we are... What Glory did Jesus have before the world was? The Bible wont let you stay in the "Man Zone" of Jesus's Life. Clearly Jesus had Glory with the Father before he became a man... What Glory do you believe that was?.

As I said above...in that verse, Jesus did not say that he is God, only that he receive the glory he had before the world was. I do not believe that having glory, as I believe that we all after resurrection will have some form of glory, that his having glory means that he is God as it doesn't say that.

As for what glory is...I don't think anyone knows for sure what that is or will be like until having experienced it if chosen to do so.

I do understand what you are saying, I just dont think you are completing the process to the fullest. Again, i believe you are not fully explaining yourself or dont want to when it comes to Jesus before he was a man. You use the above verse to say he is not God, yet dont want to go to the conclusion of what his Glory was before the word was made. I just dont see how thats constructive.

Yes, I am not fully explaining myself on some things as I'm undecided concerning some issues at this time. I grow in my search of what scripture says, and in doing so my beliefs change some, hopefully toward more accuracy; and also at times I become undecided, when before I hadn't been. And until I come to a better understanding or a new one, there isn't anything I can say concerning those issues, as I no longer have a belief about those subjects. Surely, you must know what I mean, have your beliefs always been exactly the same your entire journey?

Yes, and I agree with you to a point. But in my belief, I believe clearly stated in the bible, that Jesus was God and with God. That Even the Father will say Jesus is/was YHWH with him in the OT. That Jesus is also our Rock, Lord, Savior, Creator, Shepherd, and that everything the Father is, Jesus is also. So much so, that to see Jesus is to see the Father, who expresses God Fully and Exactly and is the image of the invisible God. That is why I believe Thomas said directly to Jesus, "The Lord of me and the God of Me" and Jesus said blessed are those who do not see and believe the same.

That is it, he is the image of the invisible God as the bible says, not God himself. The OT is a Hebrew text and if I remember correctly the Jews do not believe that the "rock" of the OT was Jesus.

Your view concerning Thomas would have Jesus contradicting himself being that he praised Peter for knowing that he, Jesus, was the Son of God.

There are many denominations that believe Jesus is God as I do. We may not all agree on what color heaven is, but we agree to disagree on those issues. (For they are not salvation issues for sure) Some may of heard it as the Trinity Umbrella... Anyways, Jesus says some seed fell on different types of Ground and that the ones that fell onto good soil grew. We believe that at different parts of a believers walk that they will have and understand more as they walk with Jesus. That is why when I see those that want to stay focused on Jesus only as a man seems odd to me.

And there is no reason to think that because a majority believe something it must mean that it is true.
My focus is on that Yahweh is the one God, and that Jesus is the Savior. Not on Jesus being a man, but on his being our Lord and Savior.

Clearly you posted passages showing Jesus being Glorified with the Father with the Glory he had before the word began. Dont you want to know what that glory is or even think about it? Why stop? Dont you believe Jesus Created all things and that they are created by him and for him? If you do, then you must believe he was something before a man or at least thought of it...

As I explained above this is one of those subjects that I'm in between beliefs on, and so can not state a view on it at this time. Of course, I've thought about it...

No, but being a lone sheep could leave you open to wolves and getting lost. Not trying to upset you, just stating what I believe.

Yes, it could, but I've been a lone sheep my entire life. Keep in mind that being led by churches and ministers and others telling you how to believe can also leave you lost and not open to thinking for yourself. The one is really no worse than the other.

Does the bible say one can lift Jesus up too high or Does the bible say one can fall short? Never do I read that some are blinded by satan in over lifting Jesus up, however, clearly stated are those that are blinded in seeing Jesus as the true image of God. 1 Cor 10 says you shouldnt be ignorant of who Jesus was before he was a man, that Jesus was the Rock that followed the Jews day and Night in the OT. We also know that YHWH or Jehovah is the Jews Rock and he knows of no other Rock but one...

Answered above.

Eternal Life cant happen "without Jesus" and the Greek Reads

And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God also, likewise(not excluding) Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

You took that very passage and "excluded Jesus" from what is "Eternal Life". Eternal Life is to Know Jehovah revealed as God and Savior. When you read that YHWH or Jehovah is God and Savior do you separate God from Savior saying only Jehovah can be God and not Savior? Then why when you read that our True God is God and Jesus you separate them? Look up the Greek word for "AND" at that passage and get back to me...

I assure you Jesus is True Theos with the Father who he expresses completely and fully. Jesus is either True Theos or he is False Theos. There is no inbetween in the greek...

Actually, Jesus excluded himself when he said..."thee" the only true God....

 

[Jensen]

Hebrews 1:8-12 the Father clearly points Jesus our as the one spoken of as YHWH of the Old Testament. Why did the Father take a passage out of the Old Testament and quote it of Jesus?

As you can see below....I asked you that. How does one explain this with Heb 1:8?
Again it was the psalmist speaking to God in Psalms 45:6 and not God to Jesus.


Jensen said: ↑
Heb 1:8 is quoting Psalms 45:6 in which it says...
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness:
Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia;
Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made thee glad.

It is not God speaking to the Son, but the Psalmist speaking to God. Look at it closely.... and so how does one explain this with Heb 1:8?

 

[Jensen]

I find that statement odd...? Jesus is the only "Son of God" born of the Holy Spirit and Mary. Let me ask you a Question: Do men have sons that are not men? Do Dogs have puppies that are not Dogs? These are Gods laws, not mine. So if God had a True Son, would he be anything but God? And this is Jesus after he emptied himself and that is why you hear terms like God/Man for he was both the Son of God and the Son of Man, but only after he Created all things and came down to save us as Jesus. God outsmarted the Devil and was truly our God and Savior.

Jesus was truly saying, If those who where not God could be called Gods, how much more could the True Son of God be called God? I wounder what they would have done if he told them He created Everything and was sustaining their own life by his very existence... Now thats Awesome!

I do not find it odd that Jesus would state that he is the Son of God.

 

[Ashraf]

You will never see a single verse in the bible where Jesus says "I am God. Worship me"

 

[Muffled]

You will never see a single verse in the bible where Jesus says "I am God. Worship me"

Welcome to RF.

No you wil not see averse that says that and for good reason however He does say "I and my Father are one." That means He is God in the flesh.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus said many thing and made many claims.

Was Jesus Lord, liar and a Lunatic and not The trinity God, Son and Spirit?

Another trinity is supported in the same scriptures, according to C.S. Lewis.

The fact that there are so many references by Jesus to his various titles and as a 30 year old man was unmarried, did not hold a job and every sentence that came out of his mouth praised God. Jesus performed miracles, raised the dead and healed people. Jesus was found guilty of blasphemy and asked to be crucified. Can theses attributes of Jesus suggest an alternate triune of personalities a more morbid trinity of sorts suggesting Jesus was Lord, Liar and Lunatic, all three in One. Sorry, textual criticism.

Scripture proving Jesus was Lord, a liar and a lunatic.


Deuteronomy 18: 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

1. To be put to death one had to be a false prophet. Jesus was put to death for claiming to be something he was not. That is falsehood or lying.

2. Knowing it is already commanded by God to Moses not to suffer false prophets, they must be put to death. Jesus was threatened with stoning for blaspheming several times, he even had to slip away and hide from the mob. But he did not stop calling himself their messiah and Christ. He knew the scriptures as well as the Jews and yet he defied them to follow through which they finally did and asked that he be put to death. Only a lunatic would ignore repeated warnings and take the chance he took. He was crucified as a result of his lunacy.

3. There are many many verses where he is called Lord.

So we have the trilemma, Lord, Liar and a Lunatic.

Please understand even though I am applying critical thinking and textual criticism. What is revealed to me by reading God's word in the Bible is what makes such discussions possible.

I believe Jesus claimed to be Lord and I have made Him my Lord.
Jesus said many times "truly I say to you." in tongues it comes out "shan da ba kish" which translates literally as "Truly to you I say."
There is no evidence that Jesus does not have a hold on reality and his words are quite logical and rational.

I believe there is no evidence of this.

I believe being found guilty in a kangaroo court is not the same thing as being guilty.

I believe there is no thread of resoning that supports your conclusion.

I believe as God in the flesh Jesus has the right to speak in the name of the Father. The way one ascetains whether He has or not is whether His prophecies come true and in at least one case they have.
Deu 18:22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I believe Jesus was put to death because unholy men thought He was lieing and refused to investigate the facts.

I believe this is false. Lunatics are usually paranoid and would avoid death because of fear of it but one who knows about the after life will not fear death and Jesus showed no signs of fearing death. It isn't that Jesus could not cope with the reality that He could die but rather that He embraced that reality.

I believe since the Liar and Lunatic are not logical then the obvious choice is Lord. I believe C S Lewis may be working on the fact that Jesus called Himself "Lord" so one must either believe He is telling the truth or that He was lieing or was deluded.

 

[icebuddy]

Icebuddy, I don't get why you would post a "like" for a message that says this....."So we have the trilemma, Lord, Liar and a Lunatic."?

Me Either... Not sure, but i had some problems getting use to this page. Not even sure how to unlike it