Did Jesus say he was God???

[Tranquil Servant]

Creating an essential difference between Jesus and the rest of humanity creates spiritual apartheid between Jesus and the rest of the humanity. This is not what Jesus wanted. Jesus came to liberate people from all oppressions, including spiritual oppression. Christian vision creates this spiritual apartheid and brings bad name to Jesus. In a way it does disservice to Jesus. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to show that he came to empower people and not to enslave them.

IMO that's the beautiful part. How God deserves all the glory and all the praise yet is so merciful, gracious, compassionate and humble to the point of manifesting a part of himself into flesh so he could experience what it is to be human and struggle with the flesh. Obviously, with all the power he had and the miracles he made, he didn't have suffer such a painful death and could've saved himself but he didn't; for a reason...to give eternal life (spiritually). The only ones who are oppressed are those who are slaves to sin.
John 8:34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Sin will keep those who are oppressed by it under the condemnation of death but those who are saved are and will be free; free from death, eternal suffering, pain, distress, hunger, sadness, anger etc. (You get the Idea).
Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

 

[John Martin]

Yes, Tranquil Servant, I agree with you that Jesus came to save us from sin. This sin is creating essential(not functional which are necessary)barriers between God and ourselves and between one human being and another. Jesus broke these barriers and created one God,one creation and one humanity. To create a barrier in the name of Jesus is sin. J.M

 

[InChrist]

According to the revealed word of God in the scriptures, sin, is rebellion to God's will and law. It is this sin which has separated humans from God and causes barriers between one another. This sin of rebellion and lawlessness is what Jesus came to save us from. Jesus alone, as God who became flesh, lived the perfect human life fulfilling the law and the will of His Father conquered sin on the cross and death through His resurrection on behalf of anyone who places their faith in Him, Personally.

 

[John Martin]

According to the revealed word of God in the scriptures, sin, is rebellion to God's will and law. It is this sin which has separated humans from God and causes barriers between one another. This sin of rebellion and lawlessness is what Jesus came to save us from. Jesus alone, as God who became flesh, lived the perfect human life fulfilling the law and the will of His Father conquered sin on the cross and death through His resurrection on behalf of anyone who places their faith in Him, Personally.

Dear InChrist,
I do not consider that the act of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit is an act of rebellion to God's will. I consider it as an important stage in the evolution of human consciousness. God has two aspects: historical and eternal. The historical God is the God of authority and commandments. The eternal God is the God of freedom and silence. The first stage of our consciousness is a stage ignorance where we live without the external Law. The second stage is the stage in which God asks us to do and not to do. The third stage is the rebellion to the God of authority. We can call it rebellious individual mind. This opens the door to the God of eternity.
Adam and Eve by rebelling the God of authority opened the door to the God of eternity. Jesus completed this journey by experiencing the God of eternity freedom.
Because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve humanity came out of the God of authority and because of another man Jesus Christ humanity entered into the God of freedom. There are no two gods, only one God. The God of history is the womb of God in which God protects human beings, nourishes them and then gives birth to them into the God of eternity. Hence the rebellion of the human beings is this birthing process. The child coming out of the God of authority. It is a painful process both to the child and the mother.
Religions tend to confine God to the God of history or authority.
Agnosticism, secularism and atheism, all belong to this process of rebelling against the God of history and deep longing for the God of eternity or freedom.
We need to separate from the God of history in order to unite with the God eternity.
It is not sufficient just to put one's faith in Christ. That is only the starting point but everyone has to go through this process of growth. From the state of original innocence to the stage of the Law, the God of authority and from there to the God freedom. We need to encounter the first Adam and Eve before we encounter Christ, because both are inside of us.

 

[InChrist]

Dear InChrist,
I do not consider that the act of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit is an act of rebellion to God's will. I consider it as an important stage in the evolution of human consciousness. God has two aspects: historical and eternal. The historical God is the God of authority and commandments. The eternal God is the God of freedom and silence. The first stage of our consciousness is a stage ignorance where we live without the external Law. The second stage is the stage in which God asks us to do and not to do. The third stage is the rebellion to the God of authority. We can call it rebellious individual mind. This opens the door to the God of eternity.
Adam and Eve by rebelling the God of authority opened the door to the God of eternity. Jesus completed this journey by experiencing the God of eternity freedom.
Because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve humanity came out of the God of authority and because of another man Jesus Christ humanity entered into the God of freedom. There are no two gods, only one God. The God of history is the womb of God in which God protects human beings, nourishes them and then gives birth to them into the God of eternity. Hence the rebellion of the human beings is this birthing process. The child coming out of the God of authority. It is a painful process both to the child and the mother.
Religions tend to confine God to the God of history or authority.
Agnosticism, secularism and atheism, all belong to this process of rebelling against the God of history and deep longing for the God of eternity or freedom.
We need to separate from the God of history in order to unite with the God eternity.
It is not sufficient just to put one's faith in Christ. That is only the starting point but everyone has to go through this process of growth. From the state of original innocence to the stage of the Law, the God of authority and from there to the God freedom. We need to encounter the first Adam and Eve before we encounter Christ, because both are inside of us.

My perspective is that if you do not believe that Adam and Eve rebelled against God then you believe in something different from the revealed word and truth of God and according to the scriptures you have the same attitude of rebellion against the Creator of heaven and earth. That is your choice. I do not believe that the historical God who revealed Himself to humanity can be separated from the eternal God who offers freedom to humanity through the sufficiency of the cross of Jesus Christ and His resurrection power. The entirety of the scriptures points to the perfect ability of Jesus Christ to completely save all who trust in Him.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

According to the revealed word of God in the scriptures, sin, is rebellion to God's will and law. It is this sin which has separated humans from God and causes barriers between one another. This sin of rebellion and lawlessness is what Jesus came to save us from. Jesus alone, as God who became flesh, lived the perfect human life fulfilling the law and the will of His Father conquered sin on the cross and death through His resurrection on behalf of anyone who places their faith in Him, Personally.

I definitely agree with you Sister. In addition, when a person equates his/herself with the Lord or his divinity, omniscience, or righteousness, that person also rebels against God. God condemns self-righteousness and those who believe they're wise but cherishes those who are humble and subservient to him because he being the greatest, humbled and sacrificed himself for us. So in a sense we are slaves because we humble and surrender ourselves to serve the Lord. We are servants of Christ . A person is a slave to who or whatever they serve; so if you're a servant to sin, your service will earn you death but if your a servant of Christ, your service will earn you eternal life.
Mark 10:43-45 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[InChrist]

I definitely agree with you Sister. In addition, when a person equates his/herself with the Lord or his divinity, omniscience, or righteousness, that person also rebels against God. God condemns self-righteousness and those who believe they're wise but cherishes those who are humble and subservient to him because he being the greatest, humbled and sacrificed himself for us. So in a sense we are slaves because we humble and surrender ourselves to serve the Lord. We are servants of Christ . A person is a slave to who or whatever they serve; so if you're a servant to sin, your service will earn you death but if your a servant of Christ, your service will earn you eternal life.
Mark 10:43-45 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Good point, Tranquil Servant. I believe everyone is a slave to either the sin nature and Satan or to Christ. The difference is that choosing to be a slave or servant to Christ brings true eternal freedom.

I appreciate your post. God bless you.

 

[John Martin]

Good point, Tranquil Servant. I believe everyone is a slave to either the sin nature and Satan or to Christ. The difference is that choosing to be a slave or servant to Christ brings true eternal freedom.

I appreciate your post. God bless you.

I don't call you servants anymore, because a servant doesn't know what his master is doing. But I've called you friends, because I've made known to you everything that I've heard from my Father.Jn.15.15.

 

[repiv]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one

I have taken just two of the ones you offer. And just to show you with out meaning to be rude, they do not necessarily mean what you are implying they do.

The first one "John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me" does not mean necessarily me Jesus is himself the ONLY and Singular God / creator. You can use Paul's statement that we ALL are meant to be the 'temple' of God and God is meant to dwell in each of us.This does not diminish the divinity of Jesus either.

On the second "John 10:30 I and My Father are one", a lot is dependent upon the context of statement. I could make the same statement about my own father even though we are separate individuals and be correct. As I am one in heart / purpose / desire with my father. The statement is still true but is very different in what you are implying it 'proves'

I am sorry to say you are only convincing yourself with this, and this approach of using the bible quotes as weapons to beat others into your understanding is usually counter productive.

 

[John Martin]

I have taken just two of the ones you offer. And just to show you with out meaning to be rude, they do not necessarily mean what you are implying they do.

The first one "John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me" does not mean necessarily me Jesus is himself the ONLY and Singular God / creator. You can use Paul's statement that we ALL are meant to be the 'temple' of God and God is meant to dwell in each of us.This does not diminish the divinity of Jesus either.

On the second "John 10:30 I and My Father are one", a lot is dependent upon the context of statement. I could make the same statement about my own father even though we are separate individuals and be correct. As I am one in heart / purpose / desire with my father. The statement is still true but is very different in what you are implying it 'proves'

I am sorry to say you are only convincing yourself with this, and this approach of using the bible quotes as weapons to beat others into your understanding is usually counter productive.

In order to understand the two quotations mentioned, we need to understand the spiritual evolution of Jesus. We see four important stages: his birth as an individual being; second his entry into Judaism and he receives collective identity as Jew. Third( at his baptism) he enters into the direct experience of God and realizes that he is the universal son of God, the Son of God. The statement 'I am in the Father and the Father is in me' belongs to this level. Then fourthly he discovers that in the ultimate level he is one with God. The statement' the Father and I are one' belong to this level. But Jesus, as longs as he lived in this world in his physical body, he has to return to his third level as the Son of God and do the will of God. Jesus' consciousness is one with the divine consciousness. But he is also human in the other three levels. He is fully human and fully divine. Jesus opened the possibility of this experience or realization to everyone.

 

[repiv]

In order to understand the two quotations mentioned, we need to understand the spiritual evolution of Jesus. We see four important stages: his birth as an individual being; second his entry into Judaism and he receives collective identity as Jew. Third( at his baptism) he enters into the direct experience of God and realizes that he is the universal son of God, the Son of God. The statement 'I am in the Father and the Father is in me' belongs to this level. Then fourthly he discovers that in the ultimate level he is one with God. The statement' the Father and I are one' belong to this level. But Jesus, as longs as he lived in this world in his physical body, he has to return to his third level as the Son of God and do the will of God. Jesus' consciousness is one with the divine consciousness. But he is also human in the other three levels. He is fully human and fully divine. Jesus opened the possibility of this experience or realization to everyone.

John,

I find your response convoluted and full of circular logic. Though I do not disagree with your conclusion.

If you are implying that we are meant to live in total oneness with God while living here on earth, I would be in line to agree with you. Just not for the 'logic and reasons' you stated.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Yes, Tranquil Servant, I agree with you that Jesus came to save us from sin. This sin is creating essential(not functional which are necessary)barriers between God and ourselves and between one human being and another. Jesus broke these barriers and created one God,one creation and one humanity. To create a barrier in the name of Jesus is sin. J.M

why are these barriers essential and not functional? I don't exactly know what you mean...If they are essential then why would God offer a way to break them? And if they are not functional then why does sin literary separate us from God? Why are functional barriers necessary? IMO, The barriers that sin creates aren't essential; finding the way to break them is. What good is it if you build a barrier around yourself but don't know how to break it; sounds like imprisonment.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The fact of the matter is that the entire life of Jesus was written in 3rd person so to say that he actually declared himself to be the son of god is nothing else but hearsay and heavily corrupted and propagated hearsay at that. So the question of Jesus declaring anything is highly unprovable

 

[John Martin]

John,

I find your response convoluted and full of circular logic. Though I do not disagree with your conclusion.

If you are implying that we are meant to live in total oneness with God while living here on earth, I would be in line to agree with you. Just not for the 'logic and reasons' you stated.

Thank you for your reply.I am happy that you agree with the conclusion that we are all meant to live in oneness with God. The way I explain it may be useful to me but if does not work for you then it is Ok. what is important is the conclusion.

 

[John Martin]

why are these barriers essential and not functional? I don't exactly know what you mean...If they are essential then why would God offer a way to break them? And if they are not functional then why does sin literary separate us from God? Why are functional barriers necessary? IMO, The barriers that sin creates aren't essential; finding the way to break them is. What good is it if you build a barrier around yourself but don't know how to break it; sounds like imprisonment.

Essential barrier means there is a need to protect, there is a need for army. A nation keeps army at the boarder to protect its boundary. Within a country there is no need of an army. There are regional boundaries, state boundaries, village boundaries. They are functional boundaries to organize the country.
Everyone has a name. This is also a functional label. It is necessary.
For example until recently every country in Europe had its boundary. One needed visa for every country. Now there are schengen states if you get visa to one country you can go all these countries. Before the boundaries were essential now there are functional. In the same way religious boundaries can be functional and need not be essential, then there is no fight.
Jesus Christ broke down all the barriers and created one God,one creation and one humankind. to day there are so many Christian Churches all divided in the name of Christ. This is sin committed in the name of Christ.

 

[BornAgain]

One question. If jesus was God, How can he be the son of God?

Heb1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[See also Tit2:13, Joh20:28, Rom9:5, 2Pe1:1] In this verse, why did God the Father called His Son God, if Christ is not God?

1Ti3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Rom1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Tit2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Joh16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Do not doubt, just believe. The world's sin is unbelief.

 

[John Martin]

Originally Posted by Dream Angel
One question. If jesus was God, How can he be the son of God?

Jesus being God is ultimate experience of Jesus. It is like climbing the roof of the house. We do not live on the roof. We have to come into the house and live in it.
So Jesus, as long as he had his physical body and lives in the world of time and space, has live in a relationship with God. In this relationship Jesus relates with God as the Father and he himself is the Son. A piece of ice knows that it is one with the water but as long as it is a piece of ice it relates with the water as if they are two. Essentially they are one but functionally they are two. The consciousness of Jesus was one with God. Physically and psychologically he is different.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Essential barrier means there is a need to protect, there is a need for army. A nation keeps army at the boarder to protect its boundary. Within a country there is no need of an army. There are regional boundaries, state boundaries, village boundaries. They are functional boundaries to organize the country.
Everyone has a name. This is also a functional label. It is necessary.
For example until recently every country in Europe had its boundary. One needed visa for every country. Now there are schengen states if you get visa to one country you can go all these countries. Before the boundaries were essential now there are functional. In the same way religious boundaries can be functional and need not be essential, then there is no fight.
Jesus Christ broke down all the barriers and created one God,one creation and one humankind. to day there are so many Christian Churches all divided in the name of Christ. This is sin committed in the name of Christ.

I don't believe sin protects us from anything. The essential and functional barriers I was referring to, were the ones you said sin creates....

Originally Posted by John Martin Yes, Tranquil Servant, I agree with you that Jesus came to save us from sin. This sin is creating essential(not functional which are necessary)barriers between God and ourselves and between one human being and another. Jesus broke these barriers and created one God,one creation and one humanity. To create a barrier in the name of Jesus is sin. J.M

Do we or do we not need these "barriers" caused by sin?
You mentioned before that anyone who does not seek oneness with God is a slave and not free. I said the only ones who are not or will not be free are those who are slaves to sin. Then, you said sin creates barriers and that they were essential.....
...so my questions still stands...

why are these barriers essential and not functional? I don't exactly know what you mean...If they are essential then why would God offer a way to break them? And if they are not functional then why does sin literary separate us from God? Why are functional barriers necessary? IMO, The barriers that sin creates aren't essential; finding the way to break them is. What good is it if you build a barrier around yourself but don't know how to break it; sounds like imprisonment.

 

[Shermana]

The consciousness of Jesus was one with God.

What do you mean by "one with"?

When Jesus said "Let them be one as we are one", in regards to the disciples, do you mean the same kind of "At oneness" as Jesus said as in having the same mindset, purpose, and unity of intent?

Because Jesus clearly had a different mind and will than the Father. He did not know things the Father knew. He received revelations from the Father. His consciousness was not the same as the Father's, the text is quite clear that they were not the same consciousness.

 

[John Martin]

What do you mean by "one with"?

When Jesus said "Let them be one as we are one", in regards to the disciples, do you mean the same kind of "At oneness" as Jesus said as in having the same mindset, purpose, and unity of intent?

Because Jesus clearly had a different mind and will than the Father. He did not know things the Father knew. He received revelations from the Father. His consciousness was not the same as the Father's, the text is quite clear that they were not the same consciousness.

Jesus is one with God in essence and he is different from God functionally. There are two types of monotheisms:dualistic monotheism and non-dualistic monotheism. In dualistic monotheism there is only one God. This God is the creator and human beings are creatures. In the non-dualistic monotheism there is only one God. This God is not the Creator but manifests creation. Creation is like the ice that comes from the water and returns to the water. Jesus was born in the dualistic monotheism but he had the experience of non-dualistic monotheism. It is for the reason he was able to say, 'the Father and I are one'. This is not possible in the dualistic monotheism. In order to understand how Jesus consciousness is one with God we must understand non-dualistic monotheism. If we believe only in dualistic monotheism then Jesus' experience and statement look blasphemous. Ice and water are one in essence but they are two functionally. In the same way the inner life of Jesus( not physical) was one with God but functionally he is separate from God.