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Did Jesus suffer?
- Thread starter bill
- Start date
steelblue75
Member
well if he was in fact a real man id have to say ummm yeah being nailed to a cross and having a crown of thorns shoved onto your head and being wipped until you bled then having a large spear thrust into your side would cause more than a slight discomfort. i mean come on we have to have a cream to soothe hemerroids and sit on an inflatable donut.... we are such pansies 
steelblue75
Member
dawny0826 said:
... along with atlas who carried the world on his shoulders... and hercules who took that burden from him as one of his tasks..... and just about every other mythical hero in the world.... a hero or martyr is definded by how much he or she (political correct button was pressed) has suffered. i mean come on who would want bill gates as their hero? so hes rich but how much has he really suffered?:areyoucra
SunMessenger
Catholic
bill said:
When I watched that movie The Holy Spirit entered my body and moved me to the point of tears. Many messages passed through me. One was a question. It was do you love Him enough to trade places with Him? This came in the midst of His beating. In my heart of hearts I answered I would die for Him. It is so difficult to watch again. I have it on DVD but to watch what they did to Him was horrific. In times when things are going wrong I reflect on advice given to me by my Grandmother. She would say when things are going wrong remember what they did to Jesus a Kind and Gentle Man. Then You will realize they could be much worse. I just got so upset I forgot the question... Oh Yes He did suffer for all of us . God Bless...
SoyLeche
meh...
He definately suffered, more than we can imagine - both in the Garden of Gethsemene and on the cross:
Doctrine and Covenants 19:18-19
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
document.write(drawVerse(19,143503));19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
Doctrine and Covenants 19:18-19
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
document.write(drawVerse(19,143503));19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
steelblue75
Member
Booko said:I dunno...would you want to hang out in a garage with Steve Jobs?
who is steve jobs? *thinking i should work less and watch tv more so i know what in the heck is going on in the world*
steelblue75
Member
jeffrey said:
ok..... say you knew for a fact that your life on earth would be short but terrible and that once it was over you had a gauranteed place in paradise not just as a normal person but as the right hand of god....... how much would you have actually suffered? the crucifiction is a gastly story to be sure but look at what man does to other men and it just doesnt grip me.... you want to get tears in my eyes...... make up a religion where to save the world the "savior" was a small child who was treated the same as jesus and still endured.... that would impress me more than a man that could handle a few hours of pain and being ridiculed by his peers
From:-http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360368.htm
ON THE PASSION, XVII: DELIVERED ON THE WEDNESDAY. I. Christ's Godhead never forsook Him in His Passion. The last discourse, dearly-beloved, of which we desire now to give the promised portion, had reached that point in the argument where we were speaking of that cry which the crucified Lord uttered to the Father: we bade the simple and unthinking hearer not take the words "My Con, &c.," in a sense as if, when Jesus was fixed upon the wood of the cross, the Omnipotence of the Father's Deity had gone away from Him; seeing that God's and Man's Nature were so completely joined in Him that the union could not be destroyed by punishment nor by death. For while each substance retained its own properties, God neither held aloof from the suffering of His body nor was made passible by the flesh, because the Godhead which was in the Sufferer did not actually suffer. And hence, in accordance with the Nature of the Word made Man, He Who was made in the midst of all is the same as He through Whom all things were made. He Who is arrested by the hands of wicked men is the same as He Who is bound by no limits. He Who is pierced with nails is the same as He Whom no wound can affect. Finally, He Who underwent death is the same as He Who never ceased to be eternal, so that both facts are established by indubitable signs, namely, the truth of the humiliation in Christ and the truth of the majesty; because Divine power joined itself to human frailty to this end, that God, while making what was ours His, might at the same time make what was His ours. The Son, therefore, was not separated from the Father, nor the Father from the Son; and the unchangeable Godhead and the inseparable Trinity did not admit of any division. For although the task of undergoing Incarnation belonged peculiarly to the Only-begotten Son of God, yet the Father was not separated from the Son any more than the flesh was separated from the Word. II. Christ's death was voluntary an His part, and yet in saving others He could not save Himself. Jesus, therefore, cried with a loud voice, saying, "Why hast Thou forsaken Me?" in order to notify to all how it behoved Him not to be rescued, not to be defended, but to be given up into the hands of cruel men, that is to become the Saviour of the world and the Redeemer of all men, not by misery but by mercy; and not by the failure of succour but by the determination to die. But what must we feel to be the intercessory power of His life Who died and rose again by His own inherent power For the blessed Apostle says the Father "spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all;" and again, he says, "For Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify it." And hence the giving up of the Lord to His Passion was as much of the 'Father's as of His own will, so that not only did the Father "forsake" Him, but He also abandoned Himself in a certain sense, not in hasty flight, but in voluntary withdrawal. For the might of the Crucified restrained itself from those wicked men, and in order to avail Himself of a secret design, He refused to avail Himself of His open power. For how would He who had come to destroy death and the author of death by His Passion have saved sinners, if he had resisted His persecutors? This, then, had been the Jews' belief, that Jesus had been forsaken by God, against Whom they had been 181 able to commit such unholy cruelty; for not understanding the mystery of His wondrous endurance, they said in blasphemous mockery: "He saved others, Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we believe Him." Not at your blind will, O foolish scribes and wicked priests, was the Saviour's power to be displayed, nor in obedience to blasphemers' evil tongues was the Redemption of mankind to be delayed; for if you had wished to recognize the Godhead of the Son of God, you would have observed His numberless works, and they must have confirmed you in that faith, which you so deceitfully promise. But if, as you yourselves acknowledge, it is true that He saved others, why have those many, great miracles, which have been done under the public gaze, done nothing to soften the hardness of your hearts, unless it be because you have always so resisted the Holy Ghost as to turn all God's benefits towards you into your destruction? For even though Christ should descend from the cross, you would yet remain in your crime. III. A transition was then being effect from the Old to the New Dispensation. Therefore the insults of empty exultation were scorned, and the Lord's mercy in restoring the lost and the fallen was not turned from the path of its purpose by contumely or reviling. For a peerless victim was being offered to God for the world's salvation, and the slaying of Christ the true Lamb, predicted through so many, ages, was transferring the sons of promise into the liberty of the Faith. The New Testament also was being ratified, and in the blood of Christ the heirs of the eternal Kingdom were being enrolled; the High Pontiff was entering the Holy of Holies, and to intercede with GOD the spotless Priest was passing in through the veil of His flesh. In fine, so evident a transition was being effected from the Law to the Gospel, from the from the synagogue to Sc the Church, from many sacrifices to the One Victim, that, when the LORD gave up the ghost, that mystic veil which hung before and shut out the inner part of the Temple and its holy recess was by sudden force torn from top (to bottom, for the reason that Truth was displacing figures, and forerunners were needless in the presence of Him they announced. To this was added a terrible confusion of all the elements, and nature herself withdrew her support from Christ's crucifiers. And although the centurion in charge of the crucifixion, in fright at what he had seen, said "truly this man was the Son of God," yet the wicked hearts of the Jews, which were harder than all tombs and rocks, is not reported to have been pierced by any compunction: so that it seems the Roman soldiers were then readier to recognize the Son of God than the priests of Israel. IV. Let us profit by fasting and good works at this sacred season of the year. Because, then, the Jews, deprived of all the sanctification imparted by these mysteries, turned their light into darkness and their "feasts into mourning," let us, dearly-beloved, prostrate our bodies and our souls and worship God's Grace, which has been poured out upon all nations, beseeching the merciful Father and the rich Redeemer from day to day to give us His aid and enable us to escape all the dangers of this life. For the crafty tempter is present everywhere, and leaves nothing free from his snares. Whom, God's mercy helping us, which is stretched out to us amid all dangers, we must ever with stedfast faith resist so that, though he never ceases to asail, he may never succeed in carrying the assault. Let all, dearly-beloved, religiously keep and profit by the fast, and let no excesses mar the benefits of such self-restraint as we have proved convenient both for soul and body. For the things which pertain to sobriety and temperance must be the more diligently observed at this season, that a lasting habit may be contracted from a brief zeal; and whether in works of mercy or in strict self-denial, no hours may be left idle by the faithful, seeing that, as years increase and time glides by, we are bound to increase our store of works, and not squander our opportunities. And to devout wills and religious souls God's Mercy will be granted, that He may enable us to obtain that which He enabled us to desire, Who liveth and reigneth with our Lord Jesus Christ His Son, and with the Holy Ghost, for ever and ever. Amen.
ON THE PASSION, XVII: DELIVERED ON THE WEDNESDAY. I. Christ's Godhead never forsook Him in His Passion. The last discourse, dearly-beloved, of which we desire now to give the promised portion, had reached that point in the argument where we were speaking of that cry which the crucified Lord uttered to the Father: we bade the simple and unthinking hearer not take the words "My Con, &c.," in a sense as if, when Jesus was fixed upon the wood of the cross, the Omnipotence of the Father's Deity had gone away from Him; seeing that God's and Man's Nature were so completely joined in Him that the union could not be destroyed by punishment nor by death. For while each substance retained its own properties, God neither held aloof from the suffering of His body nor was made passible by the flesh, because the Godhead which was in the Sufferer did not actually suffer. And hence, in accordance with the Nature of the Word made Man, He Who was made in the midst of all is the same as He through Whom all things were made. He Who is arrested by the hands of wicked men is the same as He Who is bound by no limits. He Who is pierced with nails is the same as He Whom no wound can affect. Finally, He Who underwent death is the same as He Who never ceased to be eternal, so that both facts are established by indubitable signs, namely, the truth of the humiliation in Christ and the truth of the majesty; because Divine power joined itself to human frailty to this end, that God, while making what was ours His, might at the same time make what was His ours. The Son, therefore, was not separated from the Father, nor the Father from the Son; and the unchangeable Godhead and the inseparable Trinity did not admit of any division. For although the task of undergoing Incarnation belonged peculiarly to the Only-begotten Son of God, yet the Father was not separated from the Son any more than the flesh was separated from the Word. II. Christ's death was voluntary an His part, and yet in saving others He could not save Himself. Jesus, therefore, cried with a loud voice, saying, "Why hast Thou forsaken Me?" in order to notify to all how it behoved Him not to be rescued, not to be defended, but to be given up into the hands of cruel men, that is to become the Saviour of the world and the Redeemer of all men, not by misery but by mercy; and not by the failure of succour but by the determination to die. But what must we feel to be the intercessory power of His life Who died and rose again by His own inherent power For the blessed Apostle says the Father "spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all;" and again, he says, "For Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify it." And hence the giving up of the Lord to His Passion was as much of the 'Father's as of His own will, so that not only did the Father "forsake" Him, but He also abandoned Himself in a certain sense, not in hasty flight, but in voluntary withdrawal. For the might of the Crucified restrained itself from those wicked men, and in order to avail Himself of a secret design, He refused to avail Himself of His open power. For how would He who had come to destroy death and the author of death by His Passion have saved sinners, if he had resisted His persecutors? This, then, had been the Jews' belief, that Jesus had been forsaken by God, against Whom they had been 181 able to commit such unholy cruelty; for not understanding the mystery of His wondrous endurance, they said in blasphemous mockery: "He saved others, Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we believe Him." Not at your blind will, O foolish scribes and wicked priests, was the Saviour's power to be displayed, nor in obedience to blasphemers' evil tongues was the Redemption of mankind to be delayed; for if you had wished to recognize the Godhead of the Son of God, you would have observed His numberless works, and they must have confirmed you in that faith, which you so deceitfully promise. But if, as you yourselves acknowledge, it is true that He saved others, why have those many, great miracles, which have been done under the public gaze, done nothing to soften the hardness of your hearts, unless it be because you have always so resisted the Holy Ghost as to turn all God's benefits towards you into your destruction? For even though Christ should descend from the cross, you would yet remain in your crime. III. A transition was then being effect from the Old to the New Dispensation. Therefore the insults of empty exultation were scorned, and the Lord's mercy in restoring the lost and the fallen was not turned from the path of its purpose by contumely or reviling. For a peerless victim was being offered to God for the world's salvation, and the slaying of Christ the true Lamb, predicted through so many, ages, was transferring the sons of promise into the liberty of the Faith. The New Testament also was being ratified, and in the blood of Christ the heirs of the eternal Kingdom were being enrolled; the High Pontiff was entering the Holy of Holies, and to intercede with GOD the spotless Priest was passing in through the veil of His flesh. In fine, so evident a transition was being effected from the Law to the Gospel, from the from the synagogue to Sc the Church, from many sacrifices to the One Victim, that, when the LORD gave up the ghost, that mystic veil which hung before and shut out the inner part of the Temple and its holy recess was by sudden force torn from top (to bottom, for the reason that Truth was displacing figures, and forerunners were needless in the presence of Him they announced. To this was added a terrible confusion of all the elements, and nature herself withdrew her support from Christ's crucifiers. And although the centurion in charge of the crucifixion, in fright at what he had seen, said "truly this man was the Son of God," yet the wicked hearts of the Jews, which were harder than all tombs and rocks, is not reported to have been pierced by any compunction: so that it seems the Roman soldiers were then readier to recognize the Son of God than the priests of Israel. IV. Let us profit by fasting and good works at this sacred season of the year. Because, then, the Jews, deprived of all the sanctification imparted by these mysteries, turned their light into darkness and their "feasts into mourning," let us, dearly-beloved, prostrate our bodies and our souls and worship God's Grace, which has been poured out upon all nations, beseeching the merciful Father and the rich Redeemer from day to day to give us His aid and enable us to escape all the dangers of this life. For the crafty tempter is present everywhere, and leaves nothing free from his snares. Whom, God's mercy helping us, which is stretched out to us amid all dangers, we must ever with stedfast faith resist so that, though he never ceases to asail, he may never succeed in carrying the assault. Let all, dearly-beloved, religiously keep and profit by the fast, and let no excesses mar the benefits of such self-restraint as we have proved convenient both for soul and body. For the things which pertain to sobriety and temperance must be the more diligently observed at this season, that a lasting habit may be contracted from a brief zeal; and whether in works of mercy or in strict self-denial, no hours may be left idle by the faithful, seeing that, as years increase and time glides by, we are bound to increase our store of works, and not squander our opportunities. And to devout wills and religious souls God's Mercy will be granted, that He may enable us to obtain that which He enabled us to desire, Who liveth and reigneth with our Lord Jesus Christ His Son, and with the Holy Ghost, for ever and ever. Amen.
Super Universe
Defender of God
SunMessenger
Catholic
steelblue75 said:
How can anyone refer to what Jesus was put through as a few hours of pain? I hope that no one ever again has to experience this suffering. This is the understatement of the century. Does the end justify the means. Please I beg to differ . That is the same argument used by intelligent criminals who weigh the sentence they could get if they get caught before committing the crime. Oh I will suffer for a few years behind bars but when I get out I will have the treasure buried and my life will be wonderful. Apples and Oranges . They are both fruit but one is totally different from the other. Jesus suffered at the hands of greedy power brokers so that we would not suffer for out sins. Suffered does not mean go through a few hours of pain. If we cant have compassion for an Innocent man that suffered horrific torture and murder then what is left to be upset about. To say Thank You Jesus is truly not enough. Thank You...
steelblue75
Member
does anyone actually know how long jesus's torment and crucifiction lasted? honestly... there is a reason i ask
steelblue75
Member
jeffrey said:
so jesus didnt have to die for our sins? does that mean he could have said no before god sent him to earth? the "you know what i just really dont wanna be hung on a cross and have sharp things put in my body... think ill pass thanks anyway" defiant teenager thing? to seriously think that he "didnt have to" when that was his purpose was being sent here to "die for our sins so that whosoever believeth in him shall not persish but have everlasting life" do you feel badly for crash test dummies that serve their purpose? i dont and as for would i do it for people that hated me? not a chance.... i will do anything for those i love and that love me in return but i wont suffer needlessly for someone who wont appreciate it..
the reason i asked about how long he was tormented is because of one simple fact...... go to a domestic abuse clinic and talk to the people there that were tormented for YEARS by the ones they loved (father, brother, uncle e tc) and then tell me no one has ever been tormented like jesus..... difference being those people are obviously suffering for no greater gain for humanity... most times they suffer in silence...... i feel more horrified by that than a myth about the "son of god" and his torment
SunMessenger
Catholic
[quote=steelblue75]so jesus didnt have to die for our sins? does that mean he could have said no before god sent him to earth? the "you know what i just really dont wanna be hung on a cross and have sharp things put in my body... think ill pass thanks anyway" defiant teenager thing? to seriously think that he "didnt have to" when that was his purpose was being sent here to "die for our sins so that whosoever believeth in him shall not persish but have everlasting life" do you feel badly for crash test dummies that serve their purpose? i dont and as for would i do it for people that hated me? not a chance.... i will do anything for those i love and that love me in return but i wont suffer needlessly for someone who wont appreciate it..
the reason i asked about how long he was tormented is because of one simple fact...... go to a domestic abuse clinic and talk to the people there that were tormented for YEARS by the ones they loved (father, brother, uncle e tc) and then tell me no one has ever been tormented like jesus..... difference being those people are obviously suffering for no greater gain for humanity... most times they suffer in silence...... i feel more horrified by that than a myth about the "son of god" and his torment[/quote]
The bottom line is that you don't believe Jesus even existed. Then why not argue in the hypothetical . Why not respect the feelings of those that do believe and not inadvertently offend . Keep it simple . It really works... Be Well and God Bless...
the reason i asked about how long he was tormented is because of one simple fact...... go to a domestic abuse clinic and talk to the people there that were tormented for YEARS by the ones they loved (father, brother, uncle e tc) and then tell me no one has ever been tormented like jesus..... difference being those people are obviously suffering for no greater gain for humanity... most times they suffer in silence...... i feel more horrified by that than a myth about the "son of god" and his torment[/quote]
The bottom line is that you don't believe Jesus even existed. Then why not argue in the hypothetical . Why not respect the feelings of those that do believe and not inadvertently offend . Keep it simple . It really works... Be Well and God Bless...
SunMessenger said:
With respect, I think that you hope in vain.
I would never wish to dismiss the suffering of any human being. And according to this story this man was brutally whipped, suspended by his hands and wrists and then stabbed. He suffered horrendously.
But did he suffer more than I can imagine? I only wish my imagination was so poor.
Christ was not the first man to be crucified, nor was he the last. We are even told that there were others crucified right along side him. If there is one thing that human beings truly excel at it is causing pain to other human beings. You can find historical records of people being brutally tortured for weeks before they were allowed to die. And often this was even done in the name of religion.
Some people suffer from excruciatingly painful diseases that cause them to live for years of absolute agony. Some children are born suffering from all manor of physical defects only to die horribly hours, days or even weeks latter. The only thing that we can be sure of in life is death and suffering.
I am sorry to be so morose about this, and I dont mean offend anyones religious beliefs, but I just felt that I had to put this story of suffering into some context.