Did Jesus suffer?

[SoyLeche]

thats all fine and good soy.... but for that to be truth i would have to believe he was the son of god and i dont:banghead3 *wonders why no one has grasped that point yet*

I care less about what you believe that I do about what is true.

I was giving my belief about the amount that Christ suffered. If it weren't for what I believe about the Atonement, I'd have to agree that he didn't suffer more than anyone else, and that there were many people that suffered more than him. Crucifiction, while horrible, probably isn't the worst way to die - and a lot of people hung on crosses for longer than he did. I believe there was much more to it than that though. If you don't care what I think, just say so. I'll keep posting though, because you aren't the only audience that I believe will read this.

 

[steelblue75]

I care less about what you believe that I do about what is true.

I was giving my belief about the amount that Christ suffered. If it weren't for what I believe about the Atonement, I'd have to agree that he didn't suffer more than anyone else, and that there were many people that suffered more than him. Crucifiction, while horrible, probably isn't the worst way to die - and a lot of people hung on crosses for longer than he did. I believe there was much more to it than that though. If you don't care what I think, just say so. I'll keep posting though, because you aren't the only audience that I believe will read this.

truth is in the eye of the beerholder.... no no wait thats beauty.... truth is objective ... what is truth to you is speculation to me i never said i dont care about your opinion just that i dont believe the same thing you do... to me its a story not the truth i was debating the suffering end of the question and how much he suffered depends on your belief and by all means keep posting i dont have cable so i need something to keep me from driving my wife insane:verymad:

 

[dawny0826]

It wasn't just the PHYSICAL anguish that Jesus went through which is so profound...it's the SPIRITUAL and EMOTIONAL anguish. Christ took upon himself EVERY pain imaginable...every transgression...He took it all upon Himself for our benefit.

The physical pain was bad enough but when I stop to think about all of the emotional pain and suffering that I've endured in my lifetime...I think of Christ on that cross...feeling not only the physical burdens of the nails and the lashings...but the EMOTIONAL pain and suffering of all the world and the spiritual conflicts.

His sacrifice was precious.

 

[steelblue75]

It wasn't just the PHYSICAL anguish that Jesus went through which is so profound...it's the SPIRITUAL and EMOTIONAL anguish. Christ took upon himself EVERY pain imaginable...every transgression...He took it all upon Himself for our benefit.

The physical pain was bad enough but when I stop to think about all of the emotional pain and suffering that I've endured in my lifetime...I think of Christ on that cross...feeling not only the physical burdens of the nails and the lashings...but the EMOTIONAL pain and suffering of all the world and the spiritual conflicts.

His sacrifice was precious.

ok so if he took on the worlds suffering does that mean for 6 hours the world didnt suffer? no its a metaphor jesus is the figure head of a religious movement every religion has got to have something to grab new members... with some its multipule wives (cant think of many good points about that one except lots of clean laundry ... KIDDING dont kill me) but again its all in what you believe to be true and with what i believe his sacrifice was no more painful than any other man who was crucified

 

[dawny0826]

ok so if he took on the worlds suffering does that mean for 6 hours the world didnt suffer? no its a metaphor jesus is the figure head of a religious movement every religion has got to have something to grab new members... with some its multipule wives (cant think of many good points about that one except lots of clean laundry ... KIDDING dont kill me) but again its all in what you believe to be true and with what i believe his sacrifice was no more painful than any other man who was crucified

It's all in what you believe to be true. Yeah...no joke.

Who do you think I was speaking on behalf of?

Me...Christ is EVERYTHING to me. It's the knowledge of HIS precious love and sacrifice that sustains me. I didn't say that it sustains you.

 

[steelblue75]

It's all in what you believe to be true. Yeah...no joke.

Who do you think I was speaking on behalf of?

Me...Christ is EVERYTHING to me. It's the knowledge of HIS precious love and sacrifice that sustains me. I didn't say that it sustains you.

fair enough dawny.... and just in case your ever interested in checking into the many ways that man has gotten rid of those who proved bothersome try reading "The Book of Execution" subtitled an encyclopedia of methods of judicial execution by geoffrey abbott...... crucifiction wasnt the worse way to go

 

[dawny0826]

fair enough dawny.... and just in case your ever interested in checking into the many ways that man has gotten rid of those who proved bothersome try reading "The Book of Execution" subtitled an encyclopedia of methods of judicial execution by geoffrey abbott...... crucifiction wasnt the worse way to go

I didn't say it was.

His death WAS the worst because it wasn't merely a physical death. He experienced emotional, mental and spiritual anguish beyong belief.

Your book can't shake my belief...sorry...:curtsy:

 

[steelblue75]

I didn't say it was.

His death WAS the worst because it wasn't merely a physical death. He experienced emotional, mental and spiritual anguish beyong belief.

Your book can't shake my belief...sorry...:curtsy:

im not trying to shake anything im stating my opinion that with the knowledge of the ways men have executed other men that his suffering wasnt as bad as it could have been.... normal crucifiction took days to kill someone and like i said that wasnt even the worse way to go just the popular one during that time period ... imagine he had been boiled alive or suffered death of a thousand cuts which is precisely what it sounds like being cut over and over and over again until death occurs i dont believe in his taking in all the worlds suffering so the only way i can compare is with others suffering and the ways it was brought on them

 

[dawny0826]

im not trying to shake anything im stating my opinion that with the knowledge of the ways men have executed other men that his suffering wasnt as bad as it could have been.... normal crucifiction took days to kill someone and like i said that wasnt even the worse way to go just the popular one during that time period ... imagine he had been boiled alive or suffered death of a thousand cuts which is precisely what it sounds like being cut over and over and over again until death occurs i dont believe in his taking in all the worlds suffering so the only way i can compare is with others suffering and the ways it was brought on them

I know...I know...(insert melodramtic sigh here)

 

[SunMessenger]

Jesus' crime was either religious blasphemy or political sedition. Crucifixion was a punishment distributed by the Roman government as a punishment for political sedition, while the punishment for religious blasphemy was stone-throwing, so his crime was most likely political sedition.

You are probably quite correct. I don't know what the statutes were in the day of Jesus. However it is obvious that today things are quite different . At least in this Country (USA). The question whether or not Jesus broke those laws in the strict legal sense is also open for interpretation. He certainly was not given a proper defense. So how can we assume that he was guilty in the strictest sense. That point is mute as many are charged with crimes and are able to defend their way to being found not guilty. The real question was Did Jesus Christ The Son Of God suffer ? Would anyone have withstood such a beating and torture for as long as he did ? I wonder. How long it took is irrelevant . One Second of agony is too much for ANYONE ... Let alone this Innocent Man of God. I pray we never forget the Passion of Christ .I pray we never forget any of our history. Forgetting our mistakes allows an opportunity to make them again. This mistake was unforgivable and yet we are forgiven ... I live each day like it is Christmas Eve. It just might be... Thank You

 

[SunMessenger]

fair enough dawny.... and just in case your ever interested in checking into the many ways that man has gotten rid of those who proved bothersome try reading "The Book of Execution" subtitled an encyclopedia of methods of judicial execution by geoffrey abbott...... crucifiction wasnt the worse way to go

I Worship life and will not waste it reading how to kill or torture. There is too much of that today . Every hit Police Show has almost the same theme. Showing mutilations and death. We have life to enjoy the good of mans works . Seeing the beautiful things all around us .What is the facination with death and torture today ? I have seen these things in real life and they have no good to offer. When I look at a case of injustice as is prevalent here with the Passion of Jesus, I put myself in the shoes of the man accused. Only from that perspective do I dare even imagine the suffering ... Thank You...

 

[bunny1ohio]

I Worship life and will not waste it reading how to kill or torture. There is too much of that today . Every hit Police Show has almost the same theme. Showing mutilations and death. We have life to enjoy the good of mans works . Seeing the beautiful things all around us .What is the facination with death and torture today ? I have seen these things in real life and they have no good to offer. When I look at a case of injustice as is prevalent here with the Passion of Jesus, I put myself in the shoes of the man accused. Only from that perspective do I dare even imagine the suffering ... Thank You...

I think you missed his point here Sun... I was reading replies and he said earlier that he used that as a reference to why he feels as he does about the crucifiction and the amount of suffering born by Christ. He is atheist, and therefore can only relate the physical suffering to other forms of torture and execution since he does not believe Christ took on the pain of the entire world. He also said earlier in a different thread I think (correct me if I'm wrong steel)... that people should worry less about what is coming after they die and try to enjoy the life they have while they have it.

He's not saying he has a fascination with torture and death... simply that he has read about much worse things than crucifiction And how can you compare suffering without having something to compare it to if he doesn't believe Christ took on the pain of the world? He must have something to reference the amount of suffering he feels Christ endured in order to reply properly to the OP which was simply titled "did christ suffer"? :flower:

 

[bunny1ohio]

The question whether or not Jesus broke those laws in the strict legal sense is also open for interpretation.

Very true... but if they had no reason to be upset with him, why would a court convict him to such a gruesome death? The legal system of the time condemned him, and they were very strict in the application of their laws. Although they may not have been just in our eyes for what they did, in the time that it occured it was not uncommon for someone deemed heretical or a troublemaker to be executed and tortured.

He certainly was not given a proper defense. So how can we assume that he was guilty in the strictest sense.

No he was not... but what do you mean by in the strictest sense? He was convicted according to the laws in place at that time and punished in a manner that was relatively common to them.

That point is mute as many are charged with crimes and are able to defend their way to being found not guilty.

That is present day, so it is not a moot point. Refer back to my other answer here.

The real question was Did Jesus Christ The Son Of God suffer ? Would anyone have withstood such a beating and torture for as long as he did ? I wonder. How long it took is irrelevant .

Everyone agrees he did suffer.... brutally.... and it is not irrelevant in terms of comparison with other tortures and deaths throughout history. The amount of time he withstood this torture was quite brief in comparison to the vast majority of just other crucifictions in general... not even compared to other forms of torture and death. Many men throughout history have "withstood such a beating and torture" for longer than he did.

One Second of agony is too much for ANYONE

I agree... but that is not the point of the thread

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Did Jesus suffer when he died on the cross? Mel Gibson's movie suggests that he did. What do you think?

One would have to assume that Jesus were not human if he did not suffer on a cross, and that would be a heresy. :tuna:

 

[bunny1ohio]

One would have to assume that Jesus were not human if he did not suffer on a cross, and that would be a heresy. :tuna:

:clap here here!

but depending upon how you believe some people think he wasn't human but actually a spirit in the guise of flesh... well said

 

[steelblue75]

I Worship life and will not waste it reading how to kill or torture. There is too much of that today . Every hit Police Show has almost the same theme. Showing mutilations and death. We have life to enjoy the good of mans works . Seeing the beautiful things all around us .What is the facination with death and torture today ? I have seen these things in real life and they have no good to offer. When I look at a case of injustice as is prevalent here with the Passion of Jesus, I put myself in the shoes of the man accused. Only from that perspective do I dare even imagine the suffering ... Thank You...

there is no facination with death and torture here but when you hear about vlad the impaler and crucifiction and you can see how impalement would be bad but what was so bad about crucifition? so you look it up and find out you slowly suffocate by the weight of your own body .... wow thats pretty awful... then you find out about the brazen bull where they cooked you alive inside a brass bull... good grief thats brutal... then the death of a thousand cuts..... can you see the point yet? you said never forget your history right? that book is a history of the cruelty of man to his fellow men im not facinated by it im horrified so the passion of christ (movie) didnt shock me b y its violence.... i knew that worse had been inflicted on men that werent "the son of god"

as for the passion of jesus once again i can not state how he mentally or spiritually suffered because i have no base for comparison i do however have a base for the physical so because thats what i can relate to that is what i will base my opinion of his suffering on

 

[bill]

From reading these posts it seems a consensus might be Jesus suffered an average amount for possible methods of execution available in those days. It certainly comes across though as incredibly painful and is graphically depicted by Gibson.

Why then was this movie virtually promoted by the Church: On the basis of its violence? Is the suffering of Christ seen as a good by average Christians. In comparison, do you think we might have learned something instructive from a Gibson movie about other painful deaths suffered by "good" men?

 

[SunMessenger]

[/b]

Very true... but if they had no reason to be upset with him, why would a court convict him to such a gruesome death? The legal system of the time condemned him, and they were very strict in the application of their laws. Although they may not have been just in our eyes for what they did, in the time that it occured it was not uncommon for someone deemed heretical or a troublemaker to be executed and tortured.



No he was not... but what do you mean by in the strictest sense? He was convicted according to the laws in place at that time and punished in a manner that was relatively common to them.



That is present day, so it is not a moot point. Refer back to my other answer here.



Everyone agrees he did suffer.... brutally.... and it is not irrelevant in terms of comparison with other tortures and deaths throughout history. The amount of time he withstood this torture was quite brief in comparison to the vast majority of just other crucifictions in general... not even compared to other forms of torture and death. Many men throughout history have "withstood such a beating and torture" for longer than he did.



I agree... but that is not the point of the thread

It is my understanding that the Romans during this period were the conquerors and that they were imposing punishment to keep the peace with no interest in real justice. I guess it was similar to what is known as Marshal Law . Brutally imposed with justice of no consequence. Order maintenance may be a better description. Since this was the case the specifics of the crime or defendant were irrelevant. The power hungry priests of the time were the ones who played political roulette with justice. They brought pressure to bear on the Romans to get rid of this threat to their power. This threat was named Jesus Christ. They were terrible men. They would lie no doubt to gain their objectives. Therefore it is a reasonable conclusion that Jesus was not guilty of anything . Even perhaps the crude laws of the time. Power was the only goal of those people . Get rid of the troublemakers permanently . Out of sight out of mind. That's how it was. I hope we have learned something from history so that this type of corruption and brutality will never be repeated. Finally as to amount of time Jesus suffered . Once again I find no purpose to this question. I don't know how long. I don't think anyone really does exactly. What difference does the time make. As you agreed one second was too long. Don't forget the vicious beating he received prior to the Crucifixion. I am amazed He was able to survive that alone... Be Well and Thank You...

 

[SunMessenger]

From reading these posts it seems a consensus might be Jesus suffered an average amount for possible methods of execution available in those days. It certainly comes across though as incredibly painful and is graphically depicted by Gibson.

Why then was this movie virtually promoted by the Church: On the basis of its violence? Is the suffering of Christ seen as a good by average Christians. In comparison, do you think we might have learned something instructive from a Gibson movie about other painful deaths suffered by "good" men?

If this movie was promoted by the Church good. I believe it was right to do so. Thousands upon thousands of movies depict violence just for the sake of entertainment for profit. Well I am not denying that there may have been profit here as well, but at least it was an opportunity to use the technology of today to clearly illustrate the Passion of Christ. Consider it a well made learning tool. One I believe was inspired by The Power of The Holy Spirit. I feel quite strongly that Mr. Gibson was inspired by The Holy Spirit to have developed such a profound work. I don't believe it was made to promote the violent history in any way. Let the people see a small portion of the suffering that Beloved Jesus endured. Let them feel a small portion of His profound Love. Most importantly Let Them Never Forget ... Be Well and Thank You...

 

[bunny1ohio]

From reading these posts it seems a consensus might be Jesus suffered an average amount for possible methods of execution available in those days. It certainly comes across though as incredibly painful and is graphically depicted by Gibson.

Why then was this movie virtually promoted by the Church: On the basis of its violence? Is the suffering of Christ seen as a good by average Christians. In comparison, do you think we might have learned something instructive from a Gibson movie about other painful deaths suffered by "good" men?

Indeed he did suffer horribly and it was extremely graphic, but it ilso one of the most "realistic" movies we have to compare to what men being crucified actually went through.

Not on the basis of violence or suffering, but as a promotion of their "hero" so to speak. To show others exactly what type of torture and pain he went through in "salvataion" of mankind. Wouldn't you promote a movie that you found accurate about your personal idol and wish others to see it too?

There is always a chance to learn a lesson, whether it be historical or moral, so possibly we could. It would depend on the subject matter being presented and the accuracy of the depiction like the "Passion". Take all lessons in turn as they are presented, I believe. And the value of the lesson taught is in t he eyes (or mind) of the person learning it. To one person it may be an invaluable lesson... to others it could be just entertainment.