Did Jesus suffer?

[bill]

Indeed he did suffer horribly and it was extremely graphic, but it ilso one of the most "realistic" movies we have to compare to what men being crucified actually went through.

Not on the basis of violence or suffering, but as a promotion of their "hero" so to speak. To show others exactly what type of torture and pain he went through in "salvataion" of mankind. Wouldn't you promote a movie that you found accurate about your personal idol and wish others to see it too?

There is always a chance to learn a lesson, whether it be historical or moral, so possibly we could. It would depend on the subject matter being presented and the accuracy of the depiction like the "Passion". Take all lessons in turn as they are presented, I believe. And the value of the lesson taught is in t he eyes (or mind) of the person learning it. To one person it may be an invaluable lesson... to others it could be just entertainment.

I can think of 5 scenarios to answer the question of this post: there are probably others.
1. Jesus was a man: in which case he probably did suffer (horribly)
2. Jesus was a god with magical powers: in which case he didn't necessarily suffer
3. Jesus was a man and a god: in which case he probably suffered
4. Jesus was a man with magical powers: in which case he didn't necessarily suffer
5. Jesus was a god without magical powers (e.g incarnation of Vishnu): in which case he probably suffered.

Is the lesson I take away from watching the Passion dependent wholly on which scenario I accept to be true?

The official church line seems to be 1, raising the question again of whether the suffering is considered a good officially. Michel posted a sermon (I think) as a response to the original question posed in this thread. I am not going to attempt to decipher it as it is choc full of assumptions that I would have to think about.

If I believed in 4, I would be quite isolated in my belief I suspect. Would my faith in magic make sense to a Christian? After all both of us believe Jesus suffered.

If someone could provide a plain English explanation of "passion" as used in this context I would be grateful.

Cheers

 

[bill]

I can think of 5 scenarios to answer the question of this post: there are probably others.
1. Jesus was a man: in which case he probably did suffer (horribly)
2. Jesus was a god with magical powers: in which case he didn't necessarily suffer
3. Jesus was a man and a god: in which case he probably suffered
4. Jesus was a man with magical powers: in which case he didn't necessarily suffer
5. Jesus was a god without magical powers (e.g incarnation of Vishnu): in which case he probably suffered.

Is the lesson I take away from watching the Passion dependent wholly on which scenario I accept to be true?

The official church line seems to be 1, raising the question again of whether the suffering is considered a good officially. Michel posted a sermon (I think) as a response to the original question posed in this thread. I am not going to attempt to decipher it as it is choc full of assumptions that I would have to think about.

If I believed in 4, I would be quite isolated in my belief I suspect. Would my faith in magic make sense to a Christian? After all both of us believe Jesus suffered.

If someone could provide a plain English explanation of "passion" as used in this context I would be grateful.

Cheers

I made a mistake with my previous post in relation to 4. Apologies.
Only 1 makes sense to me by the way because I do not accept either magic or gods to be necessary truths.
This leads to the conclusion that men suffer. Is this the point of the film?

 

[fromthe heart]

I made a mistake with my previous post in relation to 4. Apologies.
Only 1 makes sense to me by the way because I do not accept either magic or gods to be necessary truths.
This leads to the conclusion that men suffer. Is this the point of the film?

Personally I think that the film can in no way show the true pain Christ suffered only the physical pain...it can't show the emotional pain He felt when God turned from His own Son due to the burden He carried for US in taking on our sins. When in paying for our sins Jesus went to hell for us who will accept Him as the true only sacrifice that is pure...there He suffered every sin we commit from our entire lives. He truly paid our sin debt in full so those of us who come to Him for salvation won't have to.

Did He suffer...YES...Emensely!!!

 

[steelblue75]

Personally I think that the film can in no way show the true pain Christ suffered only the physical pain...it can't show the emotional pain He felt when God turned from His own Son due to the burden He carried for US in taking on our sins. !

actually a good storyline in a movie can draw the emotions of the audience and let them feel the heros pain ....... how? by drawing in the audience to a point where they can see themselves in that role... obviously the christian audience felt a deeper connection with the suffering because they placed spiritual and emotional suffering along with physical thus making the torment so much worse........ dont believe me? read the posts and see the response from the christians.... you say anything they can construe as being against or slanderous to jesus and THEIR emotions come out... i think the movie showed how he suffered for his believers quite well.... but does that mean we should say it is a true portrayal of the last days of jesus? that would depend on if y ou believe or not

 

[bill]

Personally I think that the film can in no way show the true pain Christ suffered only the physical pain...it can't show the emotional pain He felt when God turned from His own Son due to the burden He carried for US in taking on our sins. When in paying for our sins Jesus went to hell for us who will accept Him as the true only sacrifice that is pure...there He suffered every sin we commit from our entire lives. He truly paid our sin debt in full so those of us who come to Him for salvation won't have to.

Did He suffer...YES...Emensely!!!

The emotional pain felt is impossible to understand due to our external perspective on the crucifixion.. However it seems to have been the ultimate act of self-sacrifice or pure altruism expecting nothing in return...Is Jesus's sacrifice in your eyes "pure" due to his sinless life at time of crucifixion, due to his sacrifice as an act of altruism or both? Jesus said no greater love is possible than the laying down of life for another. Is love therefore not what is infered to have motivated his sacrifice. Was it something else? (I am trying to undestand the "passion")

 

[steelblue75]

Is Jesus's sacrifice in your eyes "pure" due to his sinless life at time of crucifixion, due to his sacrifice as an act of altruism or both? Jesus said no greater love is possible than the laying down of life for another. Is love therefore not what is infered to have motivated his sacrifice. Was it something else? (I am trying to undestand the "passion")[/quote]

according to scripture jesus died for our sins...... not because he loved us...... love was attributed to the sacrifice yes but was it his love? once again depends on your belief and interpretation of texts but if you want to get really technical jesus died because "god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that who soever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" according to just that one verse (john 3:16.... po pular with wrestling fans and im still confused by th at one) jesus was destined to die for our sins and had he loved us or not he still would have died because of gods love not his own

 

[bill]

Is Jesus's sacrifice in your eyes "pure" due to his sinless life at time of crucifixion, due to his sacrifice as an act of altruism or both? Jesus said no greater love is possible than the laying down of life for another. Is love therefore not what is infered to have motivated his sacrifice. Was it something else? (I am trying to undestand the "passion")

according to scripture jesus died for our sins...... not because he loved us...... love was attributed to the sacrifice yes but was it his love? once again depends on your belief and interpretation of texts but if you want to get really technical jesus died because "god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that who soever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" according to just that one verse (john 3:16.... po pular with wrestling fans and im still confused by th at one) jesus was destined to die for our sins and had he loved us or not he still would have died because of gods love not his own[/quote]
Whatever happened to :thou shalt not kill. Your post puts a new spin on collateral damage in modern crusades.

To return to the person of Jesus, if his sacrifice is not love, is the notion of "passion" representative of an ideal or perfection?

 

[steelblue75]

To return to the person of Jesus, if his sacrifice is not love, is the notion of "passion" representative of an ideal or perfection?

the passion is and idealization of why people believe he did what he did IMO... when to me it seems that he had no choice and therefore it was not an act of perfection... the fact that no one can really argue would be that his purpose in being sent to earth was to die for our sins which tells me he did what he was ordained to do there was no choice there so it could not be a perfect act of sacrifice.... but then i could also argue t hat he didnt know he was sent here to die because he asked "father why hast thou forsaken me" when he was on the cross..... does that tell us he was an unwilling and unknowing offering?

 

[SunMessenger]

The emotional pain felt is impossible to understand due to our external perspective on the crucifixion.. However it seems to have been the ultimate act of self-sacrifice or pure altruism expecting nothing in return...Is Jesus's sacrifice in your eyes "pure" due to his sinless life at time of crucifixion, due to his sacrifice as an act of altruism or both? Jesus said no greater love is possible than the laying down of life for another. Is love therefore not what is infered to have motivated his sacrifice. Was it something else? (I am trying to undestand the "passion")

Passion means to me the soul. The inner place that in Jesus was unsoiled. Immaculate in fact might be a better word. New as in birth . Fresh as in now. The center of ones entire being which for Jesus was Divine. Divine Passion would be perfection personified by purity and innocence in every way . That deep part of the soul that is the place where the seeds of true love and caring are nurtured. From this nurture comes a Divine Soul. Unspoiled and unwavering in conviction. The Best that The Best can be. The all of that which is best in both love and devotion. Some things are nearly impossible to describe in words. Love as deep as the universe coated with the armor of Divinity. I cant say much more as there seems to be a lack of words in my vocabulary to describe it any better. Thank You... I will never forget the Passion of Jesus...

 

[SunMessenger]

This particular thread has touched my heart and before I depart for the day I am drawn back to it . It has gone cold...

I Pray that our memory of Your Passion Dear Lord never ends... Jesus You Suffered for us... Unselfishly You Bled and Unselfishly You Suffered For Our Sins... You are my King Beloved Jesus... With You in my heart I know all Good Things are possible... I know that we Your Children are protected... I know we Your Children are Loved... I will take this Love into my dreams tonight and into my life tomorrow and forever more ... I promise as long as there is the slightest spark of energy in my mind to Never Let Your Passion Be Forgotten... Amen ...

 

[DeadVegas]

Did Jesus suffer when he died on the cross? Mel Gibson's movie suggests that he did. What do you think?

Well, he was pinned to a giant piece of woods by nails through his wrists, and then had rocks thrown at him and whips lashed at him. There's also rumours that someone watching called him a "wanker".

Sounds like he a suffered to me.

 

[bill]

Passion means to me the soul. The inner place that in Jesus was unsoiled. Immaculate in fact might be a better word. New as in birth . Fresh as in now. The center of ones entire being which for Jesus was Divine. Divine Passion would be perfection personified by purity and innocence in every way . That deep part of the soul that is the place where the seeds of true love and caring are nurtured. From this nurture comes a Divine Soul. Unspoiled and unwavering in conviction. The Best that The Best can be. The all of that which is best in both love and devotion. Some things are nearly impossible to describe in words. Love as deep as the universe coated with the armor of Divinity. I cant say much more as there seems to be a lack of words in my vocabulary to describe it any better. Thank You... I will never forget the Passion of Jesus...

Thank you. You have a marvellous gift for communicating your faith. I think I understand now. And I agree, words do fail to communicate some things adequately

 

[SunMessenger]

Thank you. You have a marvellous gift for communicating your faith. I think I understand now. And I agree, words do fail to communicate some things adequately

In The True And Gentle Spirit Of Jesus I Love You... Good Night...