Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

[Desert Snake]

Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

have a nice day
//disciple

 

[leibowde84]

Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

have a nice day
//disciple

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose." Matthew 5:17

 

[k4c]

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

The Law or instructions of God is wisdom from above. Under the new covenant we are children of God through a new birth. We don't follow the Law through fear of punishment or merit, but rather, because it is in fact wisdom from our Father above.

The Spirit without the Law blows up but the Law without the Spirit dries up.

 

[Nakosis]

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose." Matthew 5:17

Which means?

I can read a lot into that. When the purpose of a law has been accomplished, is that law necessary any longer?

I've seen somewhere a list of 30 or so commandments from Jesus.
Well actually it's up to 50 now apparently.

The 50 Commands of Christ

Just saying, people have their arguments for their truth of Jesus and the Bible. People are going to fit it to what they believe is right. How are you going to prove any of it?

 

[leibowde84]

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

The Law or instructions of God is wisdom from above. Under the new covenant we are children of God through a new birth. We don't follow the Law through fear of punishment or merit, but rather, because it is in fact wisdom from our Father above.

The Spirit without the Law blows up but the Law without the Spirit dries up.

According to this, Christians are still bound to Jewish law though, right?

 

[leibowde84]

Which means?

I can read a lot into that. When the purpose of a law has been accomplished, is that law necessary any longer?

I've seen somewhere a list of 30 or so commandments from Jesus.
Well actually it's up to 50 now apparently.

The 50 Commands of Christ

Just saying, people have their arguments for their truth of Jesus and the Bible. People are going to fit it to what they believe is right. How are you going to prove any of it?

How about the below passage, though? It seems pretty clear that Jesus instructed his followers to "practice and obey" whatever the Pharisees told them. In other words, they were commanded to continue adhering to Jewish law. It wasn't until Paul, who never even met the living Jesus, that there was a notion that Jewish law didn't need to be followed. An obvious reason for this would be that Paul wanted to spread Christianity to the Gentiles, or non-Jews, so he wanted to create a clear split between Christianity and Judaism.

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

 

[metis]

However:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”


Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”


John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”


Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”


I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”


Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”


Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”


Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”

8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”

10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”

 

[leibowde84]

However:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”


Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”


John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”


Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”


I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”


Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”


Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”


Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”

8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”

10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”

Alright. So, at the very least, it is contradictory, right?

 

[k4c]

According to this, Christians are still bound to Jewish law though, right?

We, as born from above children of God, should value the wisdom of our Father. All of God's wisdom is good we just need to allow Jesus to interpret the Law, not the religious leaders of His day. For example, the religious leaders taught Sabbath observance, we just shouldn't keep it like they did.

 

[leibowde84]

We, as born from above children of God, should value the wisdom of our Father. All of God's wisdom is good we just need to allow Jesus to interpret the Law, not the religious leaders of His day. For example, the religious leaders taught Sabbath observance, we just shouldn't keep it like they did.

So, why did Jesus command that his followers "to practice and obey whatever the [Pharisees] told them"? And, didn't the change in the Sabbath occur after Jesus' death? When did Jesus state that this change was OK?

 

[Nakosis]

How about the below passage, though? It seems pretty clear that Jesus instructed his followers to "practice and obey" whatever the Pharisees told them. In other words, they were commanded to continue adhering to Jewish law. It wasn't until Paul, who never even met the living Jesus, that there was a notion that Jewish law didn't need to be followed. An obvious reason for this would be that Paul wanted to spread Christianity to the Gentiles, or non-Jews, so he wanted to create a clear split between Christianity and Judaism.

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

Which laws? The Torah, the oral laws?

Jesus was pretty critical of the Pharisees, then turns around and tells folks to obey them? Doesn't make sense. They were the religious authority of the time. Maybe it was advice not to go against this authority. Like obey their laws to keep yourselves out of trouble. Obey the laws of the land. Something a religious leader might advise.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How about the below passage, though? It seems pretty clear that Jesus instructed his followers to "practice and obey" whatever the Pharisees told them. In other words, they were commanded to continue adhering to Jewish law. It wasn't until Paul, who never even met the living Jesus, that there was a notion that Jewish law didn't need to be followed. An obvious reason for this would be that Paul wanted to spread Christianity to the Gentiles, or non-Jews, so he wanted to create a clear split between Christianity and Judaism.

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

That puts a TOTALLY different spin on things there. Christians are following Paul?

 

[leibowde84]

Which laws? The Torah, the oral laws?

Jesus was pretty critical of the Pharisees, then turns around and tells folks to obey them? Doesn't make sense. They were the religious authority of the time. Maybe it was advice not to go against this authority. Like obey their laws to keep yourselves out of trouble. Obey the laws of the land. Something a religious leader might advise.

"The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses." Matthew 23:1

Law of Moses: "The law of the Penteteuch (first 5 books of the Bible, supposedly written by Moses)"

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[leibowde84]

Which laws? The Torah, the oral laws?

Jesus was pretty critical of the Pharisees, then turns around and tells folks to obey them? Doesn't make sense. They were the religious authority of the time. Maybe it was advice not to go against this authority. Like obey their laws to keep yourselves out of trouble. Obey the laws of the land. Something a religious leader might advise.

Also, how can you reconcile the fact that Jesus was said to have adhered to Jewish laws and tradition?

 

[rosends]

"The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses." Matthew 23:1

Law of Moses: "The law of the Penteteuch (first 5 books of the Bible, supposedly written by Moses)"

Seems pretty clear to me.

But the belief system which was espoused by the Pharisees stated that, not only did Moses write the 5 books, but he passed down the oral law as well. So by that logic, the "religious law" would include the oral code.

 

[Nakosis]

Also, how can you reconcile the fact that Jesus was said to have adhered to Jewish laws and tradition?

If he had done so then why did they crucify him. He must have done something they thought was not according to their laws. It's kind of a broad spectrum question that you're asking. Did Jesus fulfill every Jewish law and tradition?

As to what laws he did follow, he had not yet fulfilled the purpose of the law. It could have been, for God's own purpose necessary until the sacrifice.

 

[Nakosis]

But the belief system which was espoused by the Pharisees stated that, not only did Moses write the 5 books, but he passed down the oral law as well. So by that logic, the "religious law" would include the oral code.

Yes, from what I understand the oral law was just as binding. In fact a necessary interpretation from the relatively ancient time of Moses.

 

[Nakosis]

"The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses." Matthew 23:1

Law of Moses: "The law of the Penteteuch (first 5 books of the Bible, supposedly written by Moses)"

Seems pretty clear to me.

That interpretation was the oral law.

 

[rosends]

Yes, from what I understand the oral law was just as binding. In fact a necessary interpretation from the relatively ancient time of Moses.

yup -- adherence to it is central to what defined the Pharisees as different from Saduccees

 

[leibowde84]

If he had done so then why did they crucify him. He must have done something they thought was not according to their laws. It's kind of a broad spectrum question that you're asking. Did Jesus fulfill every Jewish law and tradition?

As to what laws he did follow, he had not yet fulfilled the purpose of the law. It could have been, for God's own purpose necessary until the sacrifice.

They crucified him supposedly for calling himself the messiah. Not relevant here.

Can you respond to my first question about "which law"?