Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

[Unification]

Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

have a nice day
//disciple

He came to abolish the fundamental and literal and outward interpretation of the laws because they were all traditions, rules, and regulations of vanity as interpreted by religious leaders and teachers, as everything opposed to freedom and that they erred by their literal interpretations.

Notwithstanding, when the "Christ conscious" is reached, divine union between husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious) into one mind no longer in duality, one is aware and sees the "spiritual" nature of them, that is... Internally and in the mind, as they all state... Love thy neighbor as thyself. . Equality, peace, and just measures to all of humanity regardless of race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.

 

[Unification]

He came to abolish the fundamental and literal and outward interpretation of the laws because they were all traditions, rules, and regulations of vanity as interpreted by religious leaders and teachers, as everything opposed to freedom and that they erred by their literal interpretations.

Notwithstanding, when the "Christ conscious" is reached, divine union between husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious) into one mind no longer in duality, one is aware and sees the "spiritual" nature of them, that is... Internally and in the mind, as they all state... Love thy neighbor as thyself. . Equality, peace, and just measures to all of humanity regardless of race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.

On another note, "it is written" on ones brain and mind, the two tablets of stone (western and eastern hemispheres of the brain) not on worthless pages in a book that kills when interpreted literally and used to control and oppress others religiously and outwardly.

 

[Yoshua]

Well, that's the dilemma. We know that James and Peter were suspicious of Paul and that they didn't care much for him. But neither James or Peter could read or write, so the only accounts we have of the teachings of Jesus are the canonical works, which are mainly written by Paul or followers of Paul, such as Luke, or people who were likely influenced by Paul, such as the authors of Matthew, Mark and John. None of whom ever met Jesus or witnessed his life in any way. But we do know that Peter and James were very concerned about Paul's teachings, especially where he directly challenged Jewish law, which is an indication that Peter and James (the ones who actually knew Jesus) thought of themselves as a Jewish sect rather than a new religion. It can be argued that Paul on the other hand, did in fact start a new religion.

All the best,
Gary

Hi Gary,

I don't think that Paul established a new religion and I have'nt seen a supporting scripture that may validate on what you're saying. It is more of a comment or general insights. If Paul had a new religion, therefore, what is his new religion?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Ok, I understand your take on this but I don't believe that using a Bible translator is a good and credible source for substantiating your argument. One would need to have an outside source to make this credible. Further, as your note, this change came very late, IE: 1946. One can spin this anyway one wants but even Biblical apologists cannot agree on the correct translation or meaning of what the Torah laws state. And lastly, if Jesus came to fulfill the Law, that would include that law and not just one of several. Its an all or nothing kind of thing. It cannot be picked or chosen as it fits one's agenda, such as that espoused by the WBC.

Hi Jo,

This is why we should seek to study. We may say that the Bible translators can not be trusted anymore due to some changes on what they did, but how about those who translated it right? Isn’t it?

For apologist, we may say that not all apologist are sound in their reasoning. There are Roman Catholic apologist, Mormon apologist, JW apologist and others. Then, how would you determine who holding the right doctrine?

Still, studying the biblical text, theology, and biblical standard of interpretations is a must.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Honest question for you Yoshua. How can you know that what you read in the Bible is not being manifested in your life because you believe in the words themselves? IOW, is it not possible that you read that and make it seem to 'fit' what you believe? Have you opened your mind to other sacred texts? Have you read the Upanishads or the Vedas or The Teachings of The Buddha, among others? How can someone know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they read is true? I believe that people read something and make that seem to fit. I question all. I think that is what God wants us to do. To question and continue to question, striving toward enlightenment, or IOW, toward what is true for us and helps us reach toward the concept of God. That concept is not necessarily ONLY found in the Bible. It can be found in other texts and/or in none.

Hi Jo,

Due to my spiritual experience, I would like to modify your first question because it is not applicable to me. It should be “How can you know that what you read in the Bible is being manifested in your life because you believe in the words themselves?” I remove the word “not.”

There is no excuse for me that the Bible is not manifested in my life. This is because of the following:
1.) Total change of my life in love and peace.
2.) Working of the fruits of the spirit in my life.
3.) Assurance of salvation by the gift of eternal life.
4.) Experiencing the power of God “in the name of Jesus” against the evil forces.
5.) Blessings of God in my life (health, family, and protection)

is it not possible that you read that and make it seem to 'fit' what you believe?

It is like wearing a shirt. If we have five different quality and colors of shirts that we should choose from, what we usually do is to check the sizes, quality and colors that will fit to us.
Same as we reading a lot of books, we may read several inspirational books. Now, the quality of shirt is like the quality of who is our God. How? It is by knowing who He is. The quality shirt that you’re wearing is a guarantee that your shirt is not to be worn-out easily. The same thing as we seek a divine being who will give quality to our life by the following questions:

1.) Do we have a God who can save our soul in eternity?
2.) Do we have a God that will give us love and peace?
3.) Do we have a God that is powerful of all that can destroy the evil one?
4.) Do we have a God that can give us blessing in life?
5.) Do we have a true God that is a Creator of everything?
6.) Do we have a God that we can depend on when we are weary and troubled?

Have you opened your mind to other sacred texts? Have you read the Upanishads or the Vedas or The Teachings of The Buddha, among others? How can someone know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they read is true?

Yes, it is by seeking, research and studying about them. How can we know them if we did not study their faiths, teachings, traditions and practices? Some people knows them by becoming one of them, but some does not need to join with them because by knowing and learning their beliefs, we may do our judgment on what we want.

If a person is fond in military, he did not need to be a soldier/or join the army. Some people did and some are not. You can devout your time by collecting military books, playing war games in your pc, watching war movies and historical events…..Therefore, you carried your passion by doing those activities to satisfy yourself. You don’t need to be a Muslim to know their faith and practices, but we need to find a God if our soul is at stake.


Thanks

 

[JoStories]

Hi Jo,

This is why we should seek to study. We may say that the Bible translators can not be trusted anymore due to some changes on what they did, but how about those who translated it right? Isn’t it?

For apologist, we may say that not all apologist are sound in their reasoning. There are Roman Catholic apologist, Mormon apologist, JW apologist and others. Then, how would you determine who holding the right doctrine?

Still, studying the biblical text, theology, and biblical standard of interpretations is a must.

Thanks

Morning Yoshua. IMO, all sacred texts, including the Bible, have to be held with a great deal of skepticism. There is a great deal of wisdom in all the sacred texts but we cannot know who truly wrote any of them. When it comes to apologists, to be honest, I have very little respect for them because, IMO, they are biased from the outset. When I do a paper, I admit my bias; that I have spirituality and believe in God, right up front. I also try to set that completely aside and view whatever I am doing with no blinders on. I also don't think studying the Bible is a must. I think studying all sacred texts is edifying, to say the least but certainly not a must. What are musts are studying science, literature ( which can include the Bible, among others), languages, math, etc. Here in this country, we have become complacent with the education of children and pass them through when they cannot even read or write.

 

[JoStories]

Hi Jo,

Due to my spiritual experience, I would like to modify your first question because it is not applicable to me. It should be “How can you know that what you read in the Bible is being manifested in your life because you believe in the words themselves?” I remove the word “not.”

There is no excuse for me that the Bible is not manifested in my life. This is because of the following:
1.) Total change of my life in love and peace.
2.) Working of the fruits of the spirit in my life.
3.) Assurance of salvation by the gift of eternal life.
4.) Experiencing the power of God “in the name of Jesus” against the evil forces.
5.) Blessings of God in my life (health, family, and protection)


It is like wearing a shirt. If we have five different quality and colors of shirts that we should choose from, what we usually do is to check the sizes, quality and colors that will fit to us.
Same as we reading a lot of books, we may read several inspirational books. Now, the quality of shirt is like the quality of who is our God. How? It is by knowing who He is. The quality shirt that you’re wearing is a guarantee that your shirt is not to be worn-out easily. The same thing as we seek a divine being who will give quality to our life by the following questions:

1.) Do we have a God who can save our soul in eternity?
2.) Do we have a God that will give us love and peace?
3.) Do we have a God that is powerful of all that can destroy the evil one?
4.) Do we have a God that can give us blessing in life?
5.) Do we have a true God that is a Creator of everything?
6.) Do we have a God that we can depend on when we are weary and troubled?


Yes, it is by seeking, research and studying about them. How can we know them if we did not study their faiths, teachings, traditions and practices? Some people knows them by becoming one of them, but some does not need to join with them because by knowing and learning their beliefs, we may do our judgment on what we want.

If a person is fond in military, he did not need to be a soldier/or join the army. Some people did and some are not. You can devout your time by collecting military books, playing war games in your pc, watching war movies and historical events…..Therefore, you carried your passion by doing those activities to satisfy yourself. You don’t need to be a Muslim to know their faith and practices, but we need to find a God if our soul is at stake.


Thanks

Yoshua, there is way too much here for me to answer this appropriately at this time so I will get back to this later. Have a lovely day dear.
Namaste

 

[Yoshua]

I think there are so many, it would be hard to limit the number to use. Romans 3;28 V James 2;24 to start with. The issue of faith and works. Jesus said Justification = F+W while Paul states it's F-W. Another is about feeding the poor. Matthew 25; 31-46 while Paul writes in 2Thess 3; 10 that those who don't work should not eat. Shall we continue???
The only admonitions about women in church are from Paul. The only discussion of gays, and this is very open to interpretation is by Paul. Christ NEVER taught this. There is tons but but that is a start Yoshua.

Hi Jo,

I create a new thread for this (General debates) so we will not occupy this section about Jesus and Paul's discussion. I replied you there.

Thanks

 

[Desert Snake]

He came to abolish the fundamental and literal and outward interpretation of the laws because they were all traditions, rules, and regulations of vanity as interpreted by religious leaders and teachers, as everything opposed to freedom and that they erred by their literal interpretations.

Notwithstanding, when the "Christ conscious" is reached, divine union between husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious) into one mind no longer in duality, one is aware and sees the "spiritual" nature of them, that is... Internally and in the mind, as they all state... Love thy neighbor as thyself. . Equality, peace, and just measures to all of humanity regardless of race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.

I agree with this in part. Tbh, I'm not sure how the OT 'law', really plays out in a ''Xian'' context. I don't call myself a Xian, so, perhaps not that important? I'm not sure that your complete methodology for understanding Scripture is totally correct, though. I agree with some of it, but, I don't know how you view theological aspects of religious belief.

 

[metis]

He came to abolish the fundamental and literal and outward interpretation of the laws because they were all traditions, rules, and regulations of vanity as interpreted by religious leaders and teachers, as everything opposed to freedom and that they erred by their literal interpretations.

Notwithstanding, when the "Christ conscious" is reached, divine union between husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious) into one mind no longer in duality, one is aware and sees the "spiritual" nature of them, that is... Internally and in the mind, as they all state... Love thy neighbor as thyself. . Equality, peace, and just measures to all of humanity regardless of race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.

How exactly does "vanity" supposedly fit into this picture, plus whose "literal interpretations" are you referring to?

Also, are you aware that "equality, peace, and just measures" are teachings repeatedly covered in Torah? A great number of Jewish scholars believe that these are probably the main reasons for Torah itself.

I ask these questions, not as a challenge, but as a need for clarification.

 

[Unification]

How exactly does "vanity" supposedly fit into this picture, plus whose "literal interpretations" are you referring to?

Also, are you aware that "equality, peace, and just measures" are teachings repeatedly covered in Torah? A great number of Jewish scholars believe that these are probably the main reasons for Torah itself.

I ask these questions, not as a challenge, but as a need for clarification.

Thanks for the response, and to clarify... Anyone that uses texts to oppress any other human being in any way. Women, same-sex beings, race, nationality, etc. It would be vain to teach equality, peace, and just measures and not view and treat any other human being as oneself and equal. Not as much also outward works of traditions and rituals and rules and regulations, but as internal thoughts, and purity of mind.

 

[metis]

Thanks for the response, and to clarify... Anyone that uses texts to oppress any other human being in any way. Women, same-sex beings, race, nationality, etc. It would be vain to teach equality, peace, and just measures and not view and treat any other human being as oneself and equal. Not as much also outward works of traditions and rituals and rules and regulations, but as internal thoughts, and purity of mind.

I fully agree, and thanks for the clarification.

 

[Wharton]

According to this, Christians are still bound to Jewish law though, right?

When you change the priesthood, you change the law. So Christians are not bound by Jewish law.

 

[leibowde84]

When you change the priesthood, you change the law. So Christians are not bound by Jewish law.

Jesus didn't change the priesthood though. That came long after his death. And, while he was still alive, he's claimed to have stated that his followers were to do what the Pharisees said, and follow the rules they prescribe. So, imho, evidence points to Jesus not being in favor of abandoning Jewish law. Keep in mind that Jesus himself is claimed to have followed Jewish law.