Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

[Yoshua]

There are many different examples of troublesome issues, but here are a few.

1. We don't know who wrote the Gospels. It has become clear that they were not written by the men for which they were named, and the 4 Gospels were chosen from a colleciton of roughly 30 that had been circulating around that part of the world for over a hundred years.

2. Historical innacuracies regarding Herod and his "slaughter of the innocents" (which never actually happened ... or at least we have absolutely no reason to believe that it did).

3. The Gospel writers did not know the geography of the Holy Land, and it is clear that they were writing from source material that was not "historical" in any real sense of the word.

4. "Star of Bethlehem": No record of such a celestial even outside the gospel of Matthew.

5. Roman census in Jesus birth story: No historical record of this, and the Romans kept pretty darn good records.

6. Death of Jesus: Claimed in the Bible to be accompanied by blackout of sun, raising of the dead, and an earthquake, yet there is no mention of this in any other source besides the Gospels.

Hi Leibowde,

Yes, there are some who have doubted the Bible—like those questions above. The Gospels are proven that they are accurate, different angle of views but same narrative accounts. The non-recording things may bring doubt to some people, but how about those discoveries of the scripture text? Man truly cannot comprehend the mind of God. We are fall short of the glory of God. Man cannot attain the mind of god.

Deut.29:29
29. "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

Even our thoughts are not His thoughts.
Isa. 55:8
8. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Neither are your ways My ways," declares the Lord.

Even our perspective to God; God is spirit, we lived and saved by FAITH. Everything we do is by faith. How can you seek perfection to know what is lacking in the Scriptures if there are things that has already proven about the Bible—as accurate and non-contradictory inspired book.

Eph. 2:8-10
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

All of the twelve points made above are made because science, history and credible research have proven the Christian church's view on these points to be wrong. Leibowde84 brought up more points. You want to quote the Bible, fine. You can not prove the historical accuracy of the Bible by quoting it. You can prove the historical and scientific validy of the Bible by studying it yourself. Historically, geographically, and scientifically, facts and figures only.

Hi Lasting Light,

Then what view is right and you think it must be?

Thanks

 

[Gary Sheldrake]

That puts a TOTALLY different spin on things there. Christians are following Paul?

I would say yes, Christians are basically following Paul. Most of the New Testament is either the writings of Paul, or writings of followers of Paul such as Luke, or Greek speaking writers who had heard the teachings of Paul. I think if you do a word count, Paul mentions himself and his exploits far more often than he mentions the story of Jesus. In fact, I think he hardly mentions the life of Jesus. James, the Bishop of the Jerusalem Assembly and brother of Jesus, as well as Peter, Bishop of Rome and Apostle were very suspicious of Paul. They even sent people to follow him and correct his mis-teachings. He was even called to Jerusalem to take part in a purification ceremony to atone for his false teachings. Luke (follower of Paul) tries to gloss that episode up by saying all were pleased with Paul, however, the ritual he was made to partake in was not something levied on favored people by the Jewish leaders of the time, and it should be clear that to James (the Bishop of all Bishops as Clement called him) was clearly leading what he thought was a Jewish sect. The idea of a separate religion is thought to be an invention of Paul's followers.

I am happy to discuss this at length.

All the best,
Gary

 

[leibowde84]

Hi Leibowde,

Yes, there are some who have doubted the Bible—like those questions above. The Gospels are proven that they are accurate, different angle of views but same narrative accounts. The non-recording things may bring doubt to some people, but how about those discoveries of the scripture text? Man truly cannot comprehend the mind of God. We are fall short of the glory of God. Man cannot attain the mind of god.

Deut.29:29
29. "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

Even our thoughts are not His thoughts.
Isa. 55:8
8. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Neither are your ways My ways," declares the Lord.

Even our perspective to God; God is spirit, we lived and saved by FAITH. Everything we do is by faith. How can you seek perfection to know what is lacking in the Scriptures if there are things that has already proven about the Bible—as accurate and non-contradictory inspired book.

Eph. 2:8-10
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Thanks

What has been proven in the Bible? To be honest, you are kind of all over the place. You claim faith as reasoning then fail to understand doubt and say that some things have been proven. I am not aware of anything miraculous being proven? And there are plenty of things that, according to the available evidence, are historically inaccurate. So what makes you so confident in the authority of the text? What if God has never revealed himself at all to humams? One thing has been proven ... anything is possible. But that cannot be used for evidence of anything.

 

[leibowde84]

That puts a TOTALLY different spin on things there. Christians are following Paul?

Most of the organized Christian faith community (not sure if that is the right way to put it) are definitely following Paul more than the man for whom the church was named, as they take his word for quite a bit. Paul shaped the New Testament a lot more than Jesus did ... at least that is what all the evidence points to. He spread his view of Christianity (which was very different than other's) to the gentiles, which Jesus is not even claimed to have requested. And he made pretty much all of the rules.

How can you argue with this?

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Hi Lasting Light,

Then what view is right and you think it must be?

Thanks

Jesus said Love God and love all others as you would love yourself. Even your enemies. Even those of other religions. Even those who hate you and despise you. Very, very few Christians adhere to these two commandments.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding -- this is a first and great command; and the second is like to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; on these -- the two commands -- all the law and the prophets do hang."

"I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you,
that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous."

"For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same?

And if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? Do not also the tax-gatherers so?

Ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

The Words Of Jesus.

 

[psychoslice]

I don't seem to have that problem, when reading the Bible. Looks pretty clear to me. Other peoples interpretations, not so much. So, I have to disagree with you there, to an extent. Also, He didn't write things Himself, or at least, not a full text, etc., so, it seems that if some one is looking for that sort of thing, they might want to try another religion.

my .02$

And that's OK, I personally get more from other scriptures other than just the bible, I take what suite me personally, what makes ne grow in spirit, what you believe may not be for me, and what I believe may not be for you , the only problem that arises is when you or I believe we have the only way, and that there is no other way. Imagine there are people traveling to a certain area, each one starting from a different area, each one will reach their destination, each one could say that I am the way, as Jesus supposedly said, but to believe that only one of these people have the right way is wrong

 

[Yoshua]

What has been proven in the Bible? To be honest, you are kind of all over the place. You claim faith as reasoning then fail to understand doubt and say that some things have been proven. I am not aware of anything miraculous being proven? And there are plenty of things that, according to the available evidence, are historically inaccurate. So what makes you so confident in the authority of the text? What if God has never revealed himself at all to humams? One thing has been proven ... anything is possible. But that cannot be used for evidence of anything.

Hi leibowde,

It is the experience of total change in my life; a life of love, peace and protection. I see the power of God over the evil one, and that proves God is alive. I believed in the text authority because of its consistency with my experience. Additionally, I studied and spent time to study the text. The notion that God has never revealed himself to all humans is too blurred to accept. Even the historian Josephus (at the time of Jesus), a non-Christian, mentioned about Jesus. The offer of eternal life by Jesus Christ is the assurance that God truly revealed Himself to humans. So, if in doubt, try to do more searching.

John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Jesus said Love God and love all others as you would love yourself. Even your enemies. Even those of other religions. Even those who hate you and despise you. Very, very few Christians adhere to these two commandments.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding -- this is a first and great command; and the second is like to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; on these -- the two commands -- all the law and the prophets do hang."

"I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you,
that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous."

"For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same?

And if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? Do not also the tax-gatherers so?

Ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

The Words Of Jesus.

Thanks for your answer.

 

[JoStories]

Hi Jo,

The subject about homosexuality is a very critical one when being discussed. I know that some of the forum members did not want to jump in to this subject. By the way, just to give you some idea about your message, it has to do with the Bible translators. This is the reason why I study biblical interpretation, so I will not get lost in studying the scriptures. The Bible translator connects the term “effeminate” and “abusers of themselves with mankind” as homosexual. The occurrence of this shift came in 1946. Let me brief you about this: if you will look at the original Greek text (below) that was used for homosexual is the term “arsenokoites”, “arsen” for male, “koitai” for mat or bed. This defined as a male engaging in same-gender sexual activity.

arsenokoites: a male engaging in same-gender sexual activity
Original Word: ἀρσενοκοίτης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arsenokoites
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace)
Short Definition: a male engaging in same-gender sexual activity
Definition: a male engaging in same-gender sexual activity; a sodomite, pederast.
HELPS Word-studies (biblehub)

I’m not God to judge who will saved or not; I don’t know you personally same as other members here. We just know them by sharing their stories here. Just my opinion here, a person should always seek God’s righteousness by accepting Him as Lord and Saviour, allow the Holy Spirit’s guidance and follow what God forbids such as killings, idolatry, immorality, fornicators and others.

I believed God is just fair enough and gives justice to those who contemplate with their sexuality problem.

Thanks

Ok, I understand your take on this but I don't believe that using a Bible translator is a good and credible source for substantiating your argument. One would need to have an outside source to make this credible. Further, as your note, this change came very late, IE: 1946. One can spin this anyway one wants but even Biblical apologists cannot agree on the correct translation or meaning of what the Torah laws state. And lastly, if Jesus came to fulfill the Law, that would include that law and not just one of several. Its an all or nothing kind of thing. It cannot be picked or chosen as it fits one's agenda, such as that espoused by the WBC.

 

[JoStories]

Hi Leibowde84,

May I know what is lacking?

Thanks

Yoshua, that could be the subject of an entire dissertation! There is much, IMO, that is lacking or historically inaccurate about what the Bible teaches and what was historically accurate of that time frame. Furthermore, you have to understand the languages and their collective translations as well as what was included or excluded from the Bible as we know it today. Why exclude the extant gospels? What about them makes them heretical? Why not include them if they are words of Jesus or God? Who is to say they are not the words of Christ? There are so many other questions that this post could be overly long but I will stop there.

 

[JoStories]

Hi leibowde,

It is the experience of total change in my life; a life of love, peace and protection. I see the power of God over the evil one, and that proves God is alive. I believed in the text authority because of its consistency with my experience. Additionally, I studied and spent time to study the text. The notion that God has never revealed himself to all humans is too blurred to accept. Even the historian Josephus (at the time of Jesus), a non-Christian, mentioned about Jesus. The offer of eternal life by Jesus Christ is the assurance that God truly revealed Himself to humans. So, if in doubt, try to do more searching.

John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Thanks

Honest question for you Yoshua. How can you know that what you read in the Bible is not being manifested in your life because you believe in the words themselves? IOW, is it not possible that you read that and make it seem to 'fit' what you believe? Have you opened your mind to other sacred texts? Have you read the Upanishads or the Vedas or The Teachings of The Buddha, among others? How can someone know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they read is true? I believe that people read something and make that seem to fit. I question all. I think that is what God wants us to do. To question and continue to question, striving toward enlightenment, or IOW, toward what is true for us and helps us reach toward the concept of God. That concept is not necessarily ONLY found in the Bible. It can be found in other texts and/or in none.

 

[leibowde84]

That puts a TOTALLY different spin on things there. Christians are following Paul?

Most of the organized Christian faith community (not sure if that is the right way to put it) are definitely following Paul more than the man for whom the church was named, as they take his word for quite a bit. Paul shaped the New Testament a lot more than Jesus did ... at least that is what all the evidence points to. He spread his view of Christianity (which was very different than other's) to the gentiles, which Jesus is not even claimed to have requested. And he made pretty much all of the rules.

How can you argue with this?

Hi leibowde,

It is the experience of total change in my life; a life of love, peace and protection. I see the power of God over the evil one, and that proves God is alive. I believed in the text authority because of its consistency with my experience. Additionally, I studied and spent time to study the text. The notion that God has never revealed himself to all humans is too blurred to accept. Even the historian Josephus (at the time of Jesus), a non-Christian, mentioned about Jesus. The offer of eternal life by Jesus Christ is the assurance that God truly revealed Himself to humans. So, if in doubt, try to do more searching.

John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Thanks

I search every day, but it leads usually to more doubt than confidence. We don't know who wrote the Gospels, they were chosen out of 29 options, and Paul, who wrote a large portion of the New Testament (or at least someone did in his name), never met the living Jesus, and his claimed "vision" seems made-up. The more I learn, the more assumptions I notice that I have been making since childhood.

Josephus' comments about Jesus, to some scholars, seem to be fraudulent. Some think that the mentioning of Jesus was added in at a later date by someone else in the margin. Now, I have heard valid arguments from both sides on this, and I am undecided on the issue, but I don't think it is sufficient evidence to really prove anything.

I will take your advice and continue to search, though. I'll never give up on finding the truth, and I do appreciate your encouragement. But, I will also continue to refuse to "take people's words for" the words and life of Jesus.

 

[Yoshua]

I would say yes, Christians are basically following Paul. Most of the New Testament is either the writings of Paul, or writings of followers of Paul such as Luke, or Greek speaking writers who had heard the teachings of Paul. I think if you do a word count, Paul mentions himself and his exploits far more often than he mentions the story of Jesus. In fact, I think he hardly mentions the life of Jesus. James, the Bishop of the Jerusalem Assembly and brother of Jesus, as well as Peter, Bishop of Rome and Apostle were very suspicious of Paul. They even sent people to follow him and correct his mis-teachings. He was even called to Jerusalem to take part in a purification ceremony to atone for his false teachings. Luke (follower of Paul) tries to gloss that episode up by saying all were pleased with Paul, however, the ritual he was made to partake in was not something levied on favored people by the Jewish leaders of the time, and it should be clear that to James (the Bishop of all Bishops as Clement called him) was clearly leading what he thought was a Jewish sect. The idea of a separate religion is thought to be an invention of Paul's followers.

I am happy to discuss this at length.

All the best,
Gary

Hi Gary,

Could you cite a scripture text regarding Paul’s teaching that you think is differ with Jesus?

Thanks

 

[psychoslice]

I think all that Jesus supposedly said was but into his mouth by those who wrote the so called bible.

 

[JoStories]

Hi Gary,

Could you cite a scripture text regarding Paul’s teaching that you think is differ with Jesus?

Thanks

I think there are so many, it would be hard to limit the number to use. Romans 3;28 V James 2;24 to start with. The issue of faith and works. Jesus said Justification = F+W while Paul states it's F-W. Another is about feeding the poor. Matthew 25; 31-46 while Paul writes in 2Thess 3; 10 that those who don't work should not eat. Shall we continue???
The only admonitions about women in church are from Paul. The only discussion of gays, and this is very open to interpretation is by Paul. Christ NEVER taught this. There is tons but but that is a start Yoshua.

 

[JoStories]

I think all that Jesus supposedly said was but into his mouth by those who wrote the so called bible.

I agree and disagree Pyscho. I agree that we cannot know if Jesus truly ever said anything in the Bible or in the extant gospels. However, I do think that there is enough wisdom found in all of the alleged gospels to have been spoken by someone. Sort of like The Buddha. Did either really say those things? Who knows?

 

[Yoshua]

I search every day, but it leads usually to more doubt than confidence. We don't know who wrote the Gospels, they were chosen out of 29 options, and Paul, who wrote a large portion of the New Testament (or at least someone did in his name), never met the living Jesus, and his claimed "vision" seems made-up. The more I learn, the more assumptions I notice that I have been making since childhood.

Josephus' comments about Jesus, to some scholars, seem to be fraudulent. Some think that the mentioning of Jesus was added in at a later date by someone else in the margin. Now, I have heard valid arguments from both sides on this, and I am undecided on the issue, but I don't think it is sufficient evidence to really prove anything.

I will take your advice and continue to search, though. I'll never give up on finding the truth, and I do appreciate your encouragement. But, I will also continue to refuse to "take people's words for" the words and life of Jesus.

Hi Leibowde,

I try my best to type this from my book “How to read the Bible Book by Book” by Gordon Fee & Douglas Stuart. Also, the book “How to read the Bible by its Worth”. These are good books on how to understand the Bible in considering the context and other related resources.

For Matthew, the author is anonymous; Papias (ca.A.D. 125) attributes “the first Gospel” to the apostle Matthew; scholarship is divided. Date: unknown (since he sued Mark, very likely written in the 70’s or 80’s)

For Mark, the author is anonymous; Papias (ca.A.D. 125) to John Mark. A sometime companion of Paul (Col. 4:10) and later of Peter (1 Peter 5:13). Date : ca.A.D.65 (according to Papia, soon after the deaths of Paul and Peter in Rome).

For Luke, according to very early tradition, Luke, the physician and sometime companion of the Apostle Paul (Col. 4:14), the only Gentile author in the Bible. Date : uncertain; scholars are divided between a date before the death of Paul (ca.A.D. 64;see Acts 28:30-31) and one after the fall of Jerusalem (A.D. 70, because of his use of Mark)

For John, the beloved disciple who wrote [these things] down (21:24;cf.13:23;19:25-27; 20:2, 21:7) most likely refers to John the Apostle, son of Zebedee (otherwise not named in this Gospel); the “we” of 21:24 suggests another person is responsible for the Gospel in its final form. Date: unknown, probably ca. A.D. 90-95.

Hope this may help. Try also the book by Josh Mcdowell, The Evidence that Demands a Verdict and the New Evidence that demands a Verdict. This book has a lot to tell about science, Jesus, archaelogical evidence, historical, and more. The book by Norman Geisler, Unshakable Foundations is also a very good one and fit for you. Try to search their books. There are a lot of resources in the net, but you must choose a good and balance resources of information.

For choosing the right scholars or theologian, it is important to check their reliability and background.

Thanks

 

[leibowde84]

Hi Leibowde,

I try my best to type this from my book “How to read the Bible Book by Book” by Gordon Fee & Douglas Stuart. Also, the book “How to read the Bible by its Worth”. These are good books on how to understand the Bible in considering the context and other related resources.

For Matthew, the author is anonymous; Papias (ca.A.D. 125) attributes “the first Gospel” to the apostle Matthew; scholarship is divided. Date: unknown (since he sued Mark, very likely written in the 70’s or 80’s)

For Mark, the author is anonymous; Papias (ca.A.D. 125) to John Mark. A sometime companion of Paul (Col. 4:10) and later of Peter (1 Peter 5:13). Date : ca.A.D.65 (according to Papia, soon after the deaths of Paul and Peter in Rome).

For Luke, according to very early tradition, Luke, the physician and sometime companion of the Apostle Paul (Col. 4:14), the only Gentile author in the Bible. Date : uncertain; scholars are divided between a date before the death of Paul (ca.A.D. 64;see Acts 28:30-31) and one after the fall of Jerusalem (A.D. 70, because of his use of Mark)

For John, the beloved disciple who wrote [these things] down (21:24;cf.13:23;19:25-27; 20:2, 21:7) most likely refers to John the Apostle, son of Zebedee (otherwise not named in this Gospel); the “we” of 21:24 suggests another person is responsible for the Gospel in its final form. Date: unknown, probably ca. A.D. 90-95.

Hope this may help. Try also the book by Josh Mcdowell, The Evidence that Demands a Verdict and the New Evidence that demands a Verdict. This book has a lot to tell about science, Jesus, archaelogical evidence, historical, and more. The book by Norman Geisler, Unshakable Foundations is also a very good one and fit for you. Try to search their books. There are a lot of resources in the net, but you must choose a good and balance resources of information.

For choosing the right scholars or theologian, it is important to check their reliability and background.

Thanks

That's the problem though. I read different accounts from different reputable scholars, but they disagree. I don't think there is any real consensus, and I worry that there never will be.

 

[Gary Sheldrake]

Hi Gary,

Could you cite a scripture text regarding Paul’s teaching that you think is differ with Jesus?

Thanks

Well, that's the dilemma. We know that James and Peter were suspicious of Paul and that they didn't care much for him. But neither James or Peter could read or write, so the only accounts we have of the teachings of Jesus are the canonical works, which are mainly written by Paul or followers of Paul, such as Luke, or people who were likely influenced by Paul, such as the authors of Matthew, Mark and John. None of whom ever met Jesus or witnessed his life in any way. But we do know that Peter and James were very concerned about Paul's teachings, especially where he directly challenged Jewish law, which is an indication that Peter and James (the ones who actually knew Jesus) thought of themselves as a Jewish sect rather than a new religion. It can be argued that Paul on the other hand, did in fact start a new religion.

All the best,
Gary