Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

[leibowde84]

The Pharisees taught from Moses but they didn't live it from a love motivation. The Sabbath was never changed by Jesus of the Apostles. God said a system would rise up that had a man at it's head that would change God's times and Law but not with His approval. The Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day was one of those changes. If you want to know more about this watch these.

By the way, it seems that the videos you cited point out the speculation used by the early Church. It kind of seems like they did just put words in the mouth of Jesus.

 

[JacobEzra.]

The real Jesus might've said to continue following the law.

But the Jesus you have now, thrown in with words and symbology from the Tanach, created a new religion.

 

[leibowde84]

For example, the Pharisees taught seventh day Sabbath observance but they didn't observe the Sabbath the way Jesus taught. They made the Sabbath more important than human needs and even more important than relieving suffering. So Jesus said things like, "Obey them in that they teach the seventh day is the Sabbath but don't observe the Sabbath the way they do". This is just one example. The Pharisees, just like many Christians today, were very ritualistic. In other words, they were more concerned with the mechanics of how worship is done, rather than the fact that someone is worshiping God. Ritualism kills the spirit.

So Jesus said things like, "Obey them in that they teach the seventh day is the Sabbath but don't observe the Sabbath the way they do".

- Where in the Bible does Jesus say this?

 

[leibowde84]

For example, the Pharisees taught seventh day Sabbath observance but they didn't observe the Sabbath the way Jesus taught. They made the Sabbath more important than human needs and even more important than relieving suffering. So Jesus said things like, "Obey them in that they teach the seventh day is the Sabbath but don't observe the Sabbath the way they do". This is just one example. The Pharisees, just like many Christians today, were very ritualistic. In other words, they were more concerned with the mechanics of worshiping God, rather than the fact that someone is worshiping God. Ritualism kills the spirit.

None of this speaks to support for this being the will of Jesus. It only speaks to the will of the Church made in his name after his death.

 

[k4c]

So Jesus said things like, "Obey them in that they teach the seventh day is the Sabbath but don't observe the Sabbath the way they do".

- Where in the Bible does Jesus say this?

Matthew 23:3 So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

 

[leibowde84]

Matthew 23:3 So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

I'm confused. Here he says to "practice and OBEY WHATEVER THEY TELL YOU". Didn't they tell them to observe their sabbath? It seems that you are just putting words in Jesus mouth and discarding the possibility that the Church went against the will of Jesus in this respect. Paul mostly.

 

[k4c]

None of this speaks to support for this being the will of Jesus. It only speaks to the will of the Church made in his name after his death.

A will or testament cannot be changed after someone dies. If the Sabbath was changed from the seventh day to the first day it would have to be done by Jesus before He died because after His death His will is locked, Hebrews 9:16-17. Jesus never changed the Sabbath day to another day, that came hundreds of years after Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[leibowde84]

A will or testament cannot be changed after someone dies. If the Sabbath was changed from the seventh day to the first day it would have to be done by Jesus before He died because after His death His will is locked, Hebrews 9:16-17. Jesus never changed the Sabbath day to another day, that came hundreds of years after Jesus and the Apostles.

So it was against his will.

 

[k4c]

I'm confused. Here he says to "practice and OBEY WHATEVER THEY TELL YOU". Didn't they tell them to observe their sabbath? It seems that you are just putting words in Jesus mouth and discarding the possibility that the Church went against the will of Jesus in this respect. Paul mostly.

I can tell you to observe the seventh day Sabbath but that does not mean I am observing it correctly. The seventh day is the seventh day, that will never change but how we observe it must be modeled by the teachings of Jesus, not the Pharisees.

 

[leibowde84]

I can tell you to observe the seventh day Sabbath but that does not mean I am observing it correctly. The seventh day is the seventh day, that will never change but how we observe it must be modeled by the teachings of Jesus, not the Pharisees.

Again, if this is true, why did Jesus instruct his followers to "practice and obey whatever they tell you". I don't see how you can reconcile this with what you claim he meant. He also said that they were the authority on the law of moses, of which the Sabbath is a part.

 

[rosends]

I can tell you to observe the seventh day Sabbath but that does not mean I am observing it correctly. The seventh day is the seventh day, that will never change but how we observe it must be modeled by the teachings of Jesus, not the Pharisees.

But the Pharisees also told the people what to do to observe it. If they taught Pharisaic teachings, and the people were commanded to do what was taught, they would then follow Pharisaic rulings about how to observe the Sabbath. The Pharisaic lesson didn't start and end with "seventh day" -- it continued with "do no work" and went on to explain what kinds of work. Are you just drawing an arbitrary line to stop the "teaching" at a convenient moment?

 

[k4c]

Again, if this is true, why did Jesus instruct his followers to "practice and obey whatever they tell you". I don't see how you can reconcile this with what you claim he meant. He also said that they were the authority on the law of moses, of which the Sabbath is a part.

When they sit in Moses' seat they can only quote verbatim from the Bible.

 

[metis]

A will or testament cannot be changed after someone dies. If the Sabbath was changed from the seventh day to the first day it would have to be done by Jesus before He died because after His death His will is locked, Hebrews 9:16-17. Jesus never changed the Sabbath day to another day, that came hundreds of years after Jesus and the Apostles.

The movement was done in steps, by all indication. It is believed by most theologians that I've read that the apostles observed Shabbat but also began to observe what was later going to be called "the Lord's Day", namely Sunday. On that latter day, they had what they called the "agape meal", and this is mentioned in the Didache, written somewhere near the end of that century.

Because the church was gradually walking away from observance of most of the Law, and probably because gentiles began to gradually take over the church, sometime in the 2nd century the church dropped the Sabbath observance and just relied on "the Lord's Day".

This is what the evidence is indicating, although the details are not known.

 

[k4c]

The movement was done in steps, by all indication. It is believed by most theologians that I've read that the apostles observed Shabbat but also began to observe what was later going to be called "the Lord's Day", namely Sunday. On that latter day, they had what they called the "agape meal", and this is mentioned in the Didache, written somewhere near the end of that century.

Because the church was gradually walking away from observance of most of the Law, and probably because gentiles began to gradually take over the church, sometime in the 2nd century the church dropped the Sabbath observance and just relied on "the Lord's Day".

This is what the evidence is indicating, although the details are not known.

Watch my videos and you will see the early church never gathered on Sunday nor does the bible call Sunday the Lord's day. It's all a delusion to distort and change the will of God.

 

[aoji]

Jesus was pretty critical of the Pharisees, then turns around and tells folks to obey them? Doesn't make sense.

His audience was Jewish. They were "conditioned" (habit) to do what their religion commanded. Chances are they were in front of the Temple and a Pharisee was passing by. If you were part of the masses, who would know the Law better? The Pharisees followed the Oral Torah and their Law was from Moses; which, when written down, became the Mishnah. "Torah" means "instruction". So they instructed the masses through oratory. It was the Pharisees who believed in the Resurrection of the Dead, and in those times it would have had an eager audience, just as it does today with Christians.

Even though the Pharisees didn't do as they told others to do, the fact is that they were the teachers, and what they taught were the words of Moses. We all do the same with our children, don't we?

Which laws? The Torah, the oral laws?

Which laws? The Written Torah, or the Oral Torah?

The Laws of Moses. The Torah of Moses. All 613 Commandments.
613 commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[metis]

Watch my videos and you will see the early church never gathered on Sunday nor does the bible call Sunday the Lord's day. It's all a delusion to distort and change the will of God.

I'm not going to waste my time watching your videos because I have read enough theological accounts from and about the early church to know what has happened even if the precise timetable cannot be determined. I specialized in the study of the early church, reading my way through the 2nd and 3rd century writings, along with the Bible and the Didache of course.

I never said the Bible called Sunday "the Lord's Day", but the early church did. In this case, "Lord" refers to Jesus, not God.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I liked the interesting thoughts about 'Love Pharisees' made here: Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'? | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com

Jesus struggles against the factions makes his position on law unclear sometimes. He likes heterogeneity. Jesus picks his twelve disciples haphazardly from all kinds of people, so its like he's picking twelve different precious stones. They often disagree, and he has to teach them not to struggle for dominance. He appears to preach against that same tendency in the various groups, such as Pharisee and Sadducee groups. "The Pharisee says this and the Sadducee says that." At least I infer that from his tirade against Pharisee style discipleship and attempts to undermine the authority of each group, his own style of teaching and his departure from Earth, leaving his disciples like sheep without a shepherd. He also constantly accuses the leadership of Israel of not being good shepherds, and this seems to come out of his loathing of factions. If the book James is any indication of a continuance of his tradition then to me James confirms it. So then in light of this, what do I think is Jesus position on Torah observance, since he has this loose leadership style or what we would call a non-leadership style?

What is confusing is that he attacks tradition, leaves without completely specifying what his disciples are supposed to do. He even tells them directly that he will send the 'holy spirit' to them to guide them into truth. In other words "I have not taught you everything." Because of this he leaves a very flexible group of disciples behind. They keep Torah at first, and then as time goes on they are changing how they keep Torah until it becomes visibly different, and some people don't consider it keeping Torah at all. The explanations of what they are doing are not clear ones.

Its true Jesus says "Do whatever they tell you..." about the Pharisees, but he also says "Give to Caesar what is Caesars..." which appear to both be similar prescriptions. He's not saying that the Pharisees are right any more than that Caesar is but seems to put both in the same category. When Caesar disappears, so do his coins.

Best guess: it appears many early Christians view the practical application of Torah through a 'Do not accuse' lens on top of a very Pharisee sort of base, albeit without a factional emphasis. They believe in Torah, but they believe God directly adopts and directly disciples people. They focus upon the phrase "Whoever has no sin may cast the first stone." So they observe the Torah in their point of view by seeing themselves as not pure enough to execute judgment (I am talking about first and perhaps second century). They quote Isaiah and Jeremiah, especially things like Jeremiah 22:16 "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?” declares the LORD." They view the house of prayer for all people (of Isaiah 56) as fulfilled in the church not in their own time but in the eventuality of future-time. So they have a belief that Torah is being fulfilled, that the prophets are being fulfilled but do not begin with a centralized dogma about how exactly that is.

 

[Yoshua]

Again, if this is true, why did Jesus instruct his followers to "practice and obey whatever they tell you". I don't see how you can reconcile this with what you claim he meant. He also said that they were the authority on the law of moses, of which the Sabbath is a part.

Hi Leibowde84,

Matthew 23:1-3
1. Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2. saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Jesus is born under the law, therefore that law should be followed since this is originated from God handed down to Moses. One instances, Jesus called the Pharisees as hypocrites because of their legalistic acts. They like to display in front of the Jews to show that they are a holy and religious teachers of the law, but their hearts is not true to God. Jesus respects the law, but He is sent by the Father to amend the law.

Matthew 12:8
8. "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''
Rom. 6:14
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. It looks like He violated the Sabbath, but that He did it to show to the Jews that we are saved by faith under the grace of God.

Rom. 7:6
6. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

On this verse, it says that we are free and delivered from the law. That means free from the bondage and slavery of the law—legalism.

Gal.4:4-5
4. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5. to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus came to redeem who are under the law, and to qualify us—as adopted sons of God.

Heb. 10:1
1. For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

One example is the atonement (practices) in the Old Testament, they offered sacrifices to God by blood sprinkling for the purpose of cleansing their sins. But now in the New Testament, Jesus laid down His life (once for all) to served as the atonement—who shed His blood on the cross for the salvation of many.

Thanks

 

[rosends]

Hi Leibowde84,

Matthew 23:1-3
1. Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2. saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Jesus is born under the law, therefore that law should be followed since this is originated from God handed down to Moses. One instances, Jesus called the Pharisees as hypocrites because of their legalistic acts. They like to display in front of the Jews to show that they are a holy and religious teachers of the law, but their hearts is not true to God. Jesus respects the law, but He is sent by the Father to amend the law.

Matthew 12:8
8. "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''
Rom. 6:14
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. It looks like He violated the Sabbath, but that He did it to show to the Jews that we are saved by faith under the grace of God.

Rom. 7:6
6. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

On this verse, it says that we are free and delivered from the law. That means free from the bondage and slavery of the law—legalism.

Gal.4:4-5
4. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5. to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus came to redeem who are under the law, and to qualify us—as adopted sons of God.

Heb. 10:1
1. For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

One example is the atonement (practices) in the Old Testament, they offered sacrifices to God by blood sprinkling for the purpose of cleansing their sins. But now in the New Testament, Jesus laid down His life (once for all) to served as the atonement—who shed His blood on the cross for the salvation of many.

Thanks

but isn't that simply the essence of the contradiction? One verse says "the law should be followed" and the other says "free of the law." The Pharisees were teaching observance of laws and this was expected by Jesus -- observance. At the same time he was teaching that people are free of the bondage of the law. Are you saying he advocated observing the sabbath but not the laws of the sabbath? That makes no sense. If Jesus was sent to "amend" the law, then why say that people should follow what the Pharisees say to do?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jesus is born under the law, therefore that law should be followed since this is originated from God handed down to Moses. One instances, Jesus called the Pharisees as hypocrites because of their legalistic acts. They like to display in front of the Jews to show that they are a holy and religious teachers of the law, but their hearts is not true to God. Jesus respects the law, but He is sent by the Father to amend the law.

Actually if you are talking about Paul's point of view in Romans 7 & 8, Jesus and all people were born with a divided nature, part wanting to serve God and part not. "For in my inner being I delight in God's law" (Rom 7:22) 7:14 says the law is spiritual (aka of the Holy Spirit), righteous and good.

Not that I am trying to get you to keep the laws, but definitely Paul would expect you to be interested in that or at least delighted by the law. Keep in mind that the law is synonymous with holy spirit when Paul is writing and when Jesus is quoted. There are expressions (sometimes called impartation(s)) of the Holy Spirit and the law is one of them. So while in chapter 8 he argues that the Law was weak because of the flesh, wherever he talks about Spirit in verse 8 he is also talking about the Law. Its an impartation of the Holy Spirit. Again, I'm not trying to get you to keep the law, just pointing out that really Paul would be surprised to see how Christians today completely ignore it.

This heavily quoted Romans 7 & Romans 8 argues there is no condemnation any longer -- that in his mind Paul delights in God's law but not in his 'Sinful nature', thus so-and-so and so-forth he determines there is now no more condemnation. He upholds, however, that the law is good and the keeping of it is good.