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Did Jesus tell people to be completely adherent to the Torah 'laws'?

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Yet this is completely contradictory. Either Jesus taught to follow the law or the law was completed under him. One cannot have this two ways. From Matthew, you state that Jesus was to follow the laws, and then you contradict yourself with saying that Jesus came to redeem those who are under the law. This is not compatible at all.

Hi Jo,

If he wants to complete the law, then why He violated it for the sake of humanistic concern?

This is because in the Old Testament, the laws were given to be followed. In the New Testament, Jesus came to offer salvation to the Jews and Gentiles.
Rom. 6:14
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Jesus truly came to offer mankind salvation.
John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jesus came here not to confused us but to calling us to receive His free gift of eternal life.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Of course they contradict each other. Where did Jesus teach the things that Paul did about women? Nowhere. Paul wrote his own laws and views that had nothing whatsoever to do with what Christ taught. Were Christianity based solely on what Christ taught, I might consider following that faith but since it doesn't, I find no value in your faith whatsoever.

Jo,

Where did you get the issue about women? Can you cite some scriptures for clarification?

Here are some of the teachings and parallel scriptures between Jesus and Paul.

Matt. 19:18-19 (Jesus)
18. He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19. Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Rom.13:8-10 (Paul)
8. Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9. For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
10. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

Luke 7:50 (Jesus)
50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Eph. 2:8-9 (Paul)
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Matt. 15:19-20 (Jesus)
19. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20. "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Rom. 3:11-12 (Paul)
11. There is none who understands,
12. All have turned aside, together they have become useless;

Matt. 15:3 (Jesus)
3. And He answered and said to them, "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Col. 2:8 (Paul)
8. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Matt.17:22-23 (Jesus)
22. And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men;
23. and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

Cor. 15:3-4 (Paul)
3. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Thanks
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Jo,

Where did you get the issue about women? Can you cite some scriptures for clarification?

Here are some of the teachings and parallel scriptures between Jesus and Paul.

Matt. 19:18-19 (Jesus)
18. He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19. Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Rom.13:8-10 (Paul)
8. Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9. For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
10. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

Luke 7:50 (Jesus)
50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Eph. 2:8-9 (Paul)
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Matt. 15:19-20 (Jesus)
19. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20. "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Rom. 3:11-12 (Paul)
11. There is none who understands,
12. All have turned aside, together they have become useless;

Matt. 15:3 (Jesus)
3. And He answered and said to them, "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Col. 2:8 (Paul)
8. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Matt.17:22-23 (Jesus)
22. And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men;
23. and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

Cor. 15:3-4 (Paul)
3. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Thanks
Sure I can give you some verses;
"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner" (1 Peter 3:7)
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches." (1 Cor. 14:34)
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man." (1 Tim. 2:12-14)
"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off." (1 Cor. 11:6)
This is just a few to show you that Paul saw women in a much more inferior status than did Christ. Christ never taught the things that Paul did. Hence, his writings being clearly misogynist.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Hi Jo,

If he wants to complete the law, then why He violated it for the sake of humanistic concern?

This is because in the Old Testament, the laws were given to be followed. In the New Testament, Jesus came to offer salvation to the Jews and Gentiles.
Rom. 6:14
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Jesus truly came to offer mankind salvation.
John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jesus came here not to confused us but to calling us to receive His free gift of eternal life.

Thanks
Ok. Awesome. So its perfectly fine to be gay and get married, non? Or are we back to taking those items from the OT that one wants and disregarding the rest? I understand this is how you feel and its your belief but do you not see how some are choosing what they wish and leaving the rest as yesterday's garbage?
 
Sure I can give you some verses;
"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner" (1 Peter 3:7)
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches." (1 Cor. 14:34)
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man." (1 Tim. 2:12-14)
"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off." (1 Cor. 11:6)
This is just a few to show you that Paul saw women in a much more inferior status than did Christ. Christ never taught the things that Paul did. Hence, his writings being clearly misogynist.
A perfect touche.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The commandment that "Thou shall not kill" are direct command from God-moral law. This reveal the nature and will of God. The civil law mainly focus on daily living, society and culture for Israel.

Thanks
But remember your definition? "Civil Law about crimes, social behaviour punishments" So laws of murder are civil, not moral. Would you like to change your definition?
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
But remember your definition? "Civil Law about crimes, social behaviour punishments" So laws of murder are civil, not moral. Would you like to change your definition?


Hi Rosends,

Let me clarify further.

Civil laws are guide that deals with the legal system. I believe you’re familiar what it means by legal. Yes, it is the laws pertaining to murder or crime. Moral law such as “Thou shall not kill” is a direct command from God that applies (even) to the Gentiles. It is connected with ethics. Civil laws are applied only to Israel.

I don’t think I have to change my statement "Civil Law about crimes, social behaviour punishments.” I just did not expound it earlier to you.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Sure I can give you some verses;
"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner" (1 Peter 3:7)
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches." (1 Cor. 14:34)
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man." (1 Tim. 2:12-14)
"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off." (1 Cor. 11:6)
This is just a few to show you that Paul saw women in a much more inferior status than did Christ. Christ never taught the things that Paul did. Hence, his writings being clearly misogynist.

Hi Jo,

If we interpreted it literally, it seems that women are permanently had no authority to speak in the church. But in this chapter below, we could see in v.5, they are allowed to prophesy and pray. If not, these will contradict each other. Paul said in v.1 that he is of Christ—that is his introduction. He guaranteed that what he say came from Christ and not by his own. In v.2, he emphasized the tradition that was delivered to them; I believed that the head covering is part of their tradition for women. Then, v.3, Paul showed the submission principle as Christ is the head of every man and man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. I believe that you are in agreement with the submission of a woman to man than man to a woman. In v.6, Paul stressed the appropriate feminine way of dressing on public occasion—for a veil. When their heads is uncovered, they deny their femininity as Paul protects this freedom for women. This question was asked in v.15 : is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered?

1 Cor. 11:1-13
1. Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
3. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
4. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head.
5. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved.
6. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.
7. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
8. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
9. for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
10. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
11. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
12. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
13. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered?

Paul is not disallowing the women to speak, but he is addressing this comment to a certain situation. It is not a permanent prohibition for women to speak. Take note of the word “speak” from the Greek word “laleo” means talk or talkative, chatter. Paul is calling for a church services to take forms that are appropriate to their society if it is culturally disgraceful for women to speak up in a particular kind of meeting, and if church service was observed as to that kind of meeting, women should keep silent in the church.

I believe Paul is prohibiting the chatter in a certain meeting or situation.

laleó: to talk
Original Word: λαλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: laleó
Phonetic Spelling: (lal-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I speak, say
Definition: (I talk, chatter in classical Greek, but in NT a more dignified word) I speak, say.(biblehub)

1 Cor. 14:34-35
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Tim. 2:9-12
Women Instructed
9. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments;
10. but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness.
11. Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

This is consistent with the submission of woman to man. See my point here, Paul want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly. This is a very strong statement to maintain the femininity of women within their culture.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Ok. Awesome. So its perfectly fine to be gay and get married, non? Or are we back to taking those items from the OT that one wants and disregarding the rest? I understand this is how you feel and its your belief but do you not see how some are choosing what they wish and leaving the rest as yesterday's garbage?


Hi Jo,

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. We (human) don’t have authority like Jesus. There is moral law, we should applied it for righteousness. If someone violates the moral law, he will face the consequence.

People have free will, he may choose what he want in his/her life?

Thanks
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose." Matthew 5:17
This is true. It is for this that Jesus travelled towards India after the event of crucifixion to spread his message from G-d to the lost 10 tribes of Israel who were settled in different parts of Afghanistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Tibet and Kashmir. Jesus died there and was buried there.

Regards
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
This is true. It is for this that Jesus travelled towards India after the event of crucifixion to spread his message from G-d to the lost 10 tribes of Israel who were settled in different parts of Afghanistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Tibet and Kashmir. Jesus died there and was buried there.

Regards

Hi Paarsurrey,

How can you validate that Jesus is truly travell in India? Is it written in the Holy Scriptures?

Thanks
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Hi Jo,

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. We (human) don’t have authority like Jesus. There is moral law, we should applied it for righteousness. If someone violates the moral law, he will face the consequence.

People have free will, he may choose what he want in his/her life?

Thanks
Yoshua, none of that answers my question. Are you back to picking what verses from the OT that you want to believe are still applicable to today and rejecting the rest? IE: The admonition regarding homosexuality. Because, as you know, Christ never spoke of that. Not once.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Hi Jo,

If we interpreted it literally, it seems that women are permanently had no authority to speak in the church. But in this chapter below, we could see in v.5, they are allowed to prophesy and pray. If not, these will contradict each other. Paul said in v.1 that he is of Christ—that is his introduction. He guaranteed that what he say came from Christ and not by his own. In v.2, he emphasized the tradition that was delivered to them; I believed that the head covering is part of their tradition for women. Then, v.3, Paul showed the submission principle as Christ is the head of every man and man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. I believe that you are in agreement with the submission of a woman to man than man to a woman. In v.6, Paul stressed the appropriate feminine way of dressing on public occasion—for a veil. When their heads is uncovered, they deny their femininity as Paul protects this freedom for women. This question was asked in v.15 : is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered?

1 Cor. 11:1-13
1. Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
3. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
4. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head.
5. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved.
6. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.
7. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
8. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
9. for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
10. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
11. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
12. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
13. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered?

Paul is not disallowing the women to speak, but he is addressing this comment to a certain situation. It is not a permanent prohibition for women to speak. Take note of the word “speak” from the Greek word “laleo” means talk or talkative, chatter. Paul is calling for a church services to take forms that are appropriate to their society if it is culturally disgraceful for women to speak up in a particular kind of meeting, and if church service was observed as to that kind of meeting, women should keep silent in the church.

I believe Paul is prohibiting the chatter in a certain meeting or situation.

laleó: to talk
Original Word: λαλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: laleó
Phonetic Spelling: (lal-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I speak, say
Definition: (I talk, chatter in classical Greek, but in NT a more dignified word) I speak, say.(biblehub)

1 Cor. 14:34-35
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Tim. 2:9-12
Women Instructed
9. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments;
10. but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness.
11. Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

This is consistent with the submission of woman to man. See my point here, Paul want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly. This is a very strong statement to maintain the femininity of women within their culture.

Thanks
All of this and you don't refute my argument, you argue FOR it. That women are submissive and have a lesser, or more subservient role to men. This, IMO, is the very definition of misogynist. He relegates women to a lesser role and even goes so far as to tell them how to dress and when or where they can speak. Sorry but this argues for what I said, not against.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Yoshua, none of that answers my question. Are you back to picking what verses from the OT that you want to believe are still applicable to today and rejecting the rest? IE: The admonition regarding homosexuality. Because, as you know, Christ never spoke of that. Not once.

Hi Jo,

Can you simplify your question again? Honestly I'm not sure if I answered your question correctly. Is your subject, homosexuality?

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
All of this and you don't refute my argument, you argue FOR it. That women are submissive and have a lesser, or more subservient role to men. This, IMO, is the very definition of misogynist. He relegates women to a lesser role and even goes so far as to tell them how to dress and when or where they can speak. Sorry but this argues for what I said, not against.

Hi Jo,

I tried to explain it to you the right context of the passage biblical and theological. You can see clearly the consistency of my prepared study just to answer your question in biblical way and not my own interpretation.

Sorry, I just check that you're a female. Some of my message relate to man "I believe that you are in agreement with the submission of a woman to man than man to a woman." But nevertheless, women should submit to their husband. Paul does not hate women based on the text that I've given to you. He like to protect the women in proper clothing.
9. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments;

I can't change what the passage says.

Thanks
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Hi Jo,

Can you simplify your question again? Honestly I'm not sure if I answered your question correctly. Is your subject, homosexuality?

Thanks
Sort of. What I was asking is that if Christ fulfilled the OT laws, then he fulfilled them in total, non? If he did not, then one would think that that would mean that Christian must live by ALL 613 of the Noahide laws. But what I have seen, and in no way am I implying that you do this, but what I have seen is that Christians continue to choose which laws they want to see as fulfilled and which they state are still in effect today, IE: the issue of homosexuality. So indirectly, my question is about that issue but only as it pertains to which laws are fulfilled and which are not.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Hi Jo,

I tried to explain it to you the right context of the passage biblical and theological. You can see clearly the consistency of my prepared study just to answer your question in biblical way and not my own interpretation.

Sorry, I just check that you're a female. Some of my message relate to man "I believe that you are in agreement with the submission of a woman to man than man to a woman." But nevertheless, women should submit to their husband. Paul does not hate women based on the text that I've given to you. He like to protect the women in proper clothing.
9. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments;

I can't change what the passage says.

Thanks
I can see how you interpret this Yoshua and see it as protection. I really do get that. I wonder, however, if you can see how people like me view it from a totally different perspective. To me, these passages don't indicate protection but rather subjugation of women in general. I think that this POV is why a lot of young women today are not all the vested to following your faith. This is not to say that your faith does not have wonderful wisdom contained in the teachings of Christ. However, if it were just the teachings of Christ, even I would be more interested in the accolades of your faith but since it is hinged strongly on the teachings of Paul, that makes it untenable for me.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Hi Rosends,

Let me clarify further.

Civil laws are guide that deals with the legal system. I believe you’re familiar what it means by legal. Yes, it is the laws pertaining to murder or crime. Moral law such as “Thou shall not kill” is a direct command from God that applies (even) to the Gentiles. It is connected with ethics. Civil laws are applied only to Israel.

I don’t think I have to change my statement "Civil Law about crimes, social behaviour punishments.” I just did not expound it earlier to you.

Thanks
So civil laws deal with the legal system, including the laws related to murder to crime. Then how is "thou shalt not kill" an ethical law? How is "thou shalt not steal" anything other than a civil law?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
This is true. It is for this that Jesus travelled towards India after the event of crucifixion to spread his message from G-d to the lost 10 tribes of Israel who were settled in different parts of Afghanistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Tibet and Kashmir. Jesus died there and was buried there.

Regards
You sure have made this claim a lot, but can you actually provide any evidence to support it beyond speculation and stories?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
4
Before I believe the Bible as the truth, I know why it is the infallible Word of God. I believe that book is true because of the following: Historical Evidence (culture, geography), Scriptural Agreements, Testimony of early historians, archaeology evidences, & discoveries, archaeology witness. To prove more to you that the Bible is the true Word of God needs another thread to discuss.

If Paul is not telling the truth, then his letters that saying Jesus Christ is the Son of God is false and not valid. Studying the Bible leads you to discover the truth. We cannot justify something without knowing it.

You said that you are a (personally) Christian, if you did not believe in the Bible, then what is the basis of your faith? How can you declare that you are a Christian?

Thanks
I believe in the spirit of the Bible. I belief in the spirit of what Jesus taught. I don't look at the Bible as being historically accurate or even attempting to be so. Much of it seems to be allegory, though I do BELIEVE that Jesus was a real man who had a philosophy that changed the world. I believe in God, and I have close relationship with God. That being said, I know human beings and their ability to corrupt things. It seems clear to me that the Bible is no exception, and Paul was the first of many who tried to shape the teachings of Jesus to their own purposes. As a reasonable, logical, and well-intended intellectual (at least I try to be), I find it my duty to look at the Bible skeptically in order to not "fall" for ideas not divine in nautre, but simply used as tools to control adherents.

Just what I have come to believe after about 20 years of intensive study of Christianity, Judaism, and Philosophy. I don't take anyone's word for anything, no matter who they claim to speak for. And, since Jesus did not write ANYTHING down, everything that claims to be his words is really only doing this. Not that I believe them to be always wrong, but the risk is always in the back of my mind.
 
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