Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I've heard some say he used grape juice, and some say he used wine.
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Did Jesus use Wine or Grape Juice for the Eucharist?
- Thread starter Rainbow Mage
- Start date
Runlikethewind
Monk in Training
I think it was more than likely wine, however the wine back then was likely much different than modern wine. I think I remember reading somewhere that the alcohol content was much less. One way to find out may be to look at Jewish history concerning the passover sacrifice which is what Jesus was celebrating with his disciples. If the Hebrew Scripture calls for wine to be used then Jesus would most likely have followed this custom.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I think, if I'm not mistaken, if I remember my Jewish studies, there were three kinds of wine in Jesus' day, and none of them were non-fermented. There was fermented, watered down fermented, and what the english KJV calls strong drink, ultra-fermented.
Runlikethewind
Monk in Training
I always like to point to the wedding at Cana when discussing Jesus and alcohol. They ran out of wine at a party and Jesus zapped some water to make more. And it is clear from the stewards reaction that Jesus' wine was both alcoholic and very fine. If Jesus was against drinking wine, why do this?
John 2:1-11
John 2:1-11
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Levite
Higher and Higher
Actually, wine in Jesus' time was quite, quite strong, which helped in its preservation without refrigeration, in hot weather. The "three kinds of wine" mentioned earlier were actually more or less 1/4 water to 3/4 wine, about 60/40 wine-to-water, and about 1/3 wine to 2/3 water, which was the usual drink of choice.
A waterier mixture than this last was drunk, but it was considered more like flavored water, and it was not used for ritual purposes; likewise a stronger mixture than the first sort was known, but it was rarely drunk, and was considered much the same way as we today would regard 100 proof vodka: a good drink to have a sip of, but not really something of which one sits and consumes multiple cups (I know, the Russians will disagree with me about the vodka).
Grape juice was permitted to be drunk for ritual purposes calling for wine, but (at that time) only in emergencies, when there was no wine, only grape juice.
My guess is that at the Last Supper, which of course was a Pesach (Passover) Seder, Jesus would have drunk the third sort (1/3 - 2/3), which is what most people did then, since there is a requirement to drink four cups of wine during the seder, aside from whatever one might drink merely for refreshment or enjoyment. If one was drinking too strong a wine, one would end up too drunk to fulfill the rituals properly. If he had a tolerance, maybe the 60/40 mix, but most people didn't drink that for ritual purposes, that was what you drank when you had a long evening of drunken carousing (the 1/4-3/4 mix, if you were drinking more than 1 cup of it, was what you drank when you wanted to get really knocked-out bombed really quick).
A waterier mixture than this last was drunk, but it was considered more like flavored water, and it was not used for ritual purposes; likewise a stronger mixture than the first sort was known, but it was rarely drunk, and was considered much the same way as we today would regard 100 proof vodka: a good drink to have a sip of, but not really something of which one sits and consumes multiple cups (I know, the Russians will disagree with me about the vodka).
Grape juice was permitted to be drunk for ritual purposes calling for wine, but (at that time) only in emergencies, when there was no wine, only grape juice.
My guess is that at the Last Supper, which of course was a Pesach (Passover) Seder, Jesus would have drunk the third sort (1/3 - 2/3), which is what most people did then, since there is a requirement to drink four cups of wine during the seder, aside from whatever one might drink merely for refreshment or enjoyment. If one was drinking too strong a wine, one would end up too drunk to fulfill the rituals properly. If he had a tolerance, maybe the 60/40 mix, but most people didn't drink that for ritual purposes, that was what you drank when you had a long evening of drunken carousing (the 1/4-3/4 mix, if you were drinking more than 1 cup of it, was what you drank when you wanted to get really knocked-out bombed really quick).
logician
Well-Known Member
Boone's Farm?:sleep:
Azakel
Liebe ist für alle da
If you don't care why post in the thread? Why eve read it? Just ignore it...
Wotan
Active Member
To get an answer.
Seriously.
WHY does anybody care?
Please explain. WHY is this question of any import whatever. Explain how this effects the price of rice in china.
Azakel
Liebe ist für alle da
Okay...
I don't know, maybe they're curiosity has them wanting to know? I am not a mind reader friend. And nothing against you I just sometimes don't understand people who feel the need to post a "What does it matter' answer in a thread.WHY does anybody care?
Wotan
Active Member
Azakel
Liebe ist für alle da
Maybe but there's no reason to be snide about it.Sounds like a personal problem.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
To get an answer.
Seriously.
WHY does anybody care?
It's important to people who would otherwise think that drinking alcohol is sinful. It's important to people who struggle with alcoholism yet want to live their faith as closely to the standards of the early church as possible. It's important to people who take their study of the bible very seriously and want to know as much as possible about the meaning of the original languages of the bible. It's important to people who love the tiny details of history.
Just to give a few examples. There may be other reasons also.
logician
Well-Known Member
Having grown up in a protestant teetotaler's household, but knowing that other denominations allowed drinking, this is one of the fundamental issues for many Christian denominations. Seeing how alcohol could devastate families is probably the important reason why some denomnations declared drinking to be a sinful act. Not picling on Catholics or anything, but I had a very good Catholic friend who's uncle was a priest. He said alcoholisim was a farily big problem in the priesthood, which really is no surprise.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well we always used wine in the Eucharist when I was growing up, I being Anglican. However, we often associated with Methodists, and they said alcohol polutes the Blessed Sacrament. They felt very strongly about it.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
LOL I'm Methodist and we may not drink wine at communion (a throwback to the Methodist involvement in the Prohibition of the '30s) but we sure do drink it just about any other time!
We had dinner with our pastor a few weeks ago and between the four of us we demolished several bottles of vino.
We had dinner with our pastor a few weeks ago and between the four of us we demolished several bottles of vino.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Kathryn so do you think Jesus used grape juice when he instituted the sacrament then? Or do Methodists just hold onto that for tradition's sake?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I believe that Jesus used wine. I think that Methodists are just used to using grape juice. I honestly don't think it'd be a big deal to most Methodists to use wine. We're a pretty liturgical bunch and I think that many Methodists would actually prefer wine.