Did Moses ascend?

[gnostic]

B I N G O !!!!!!!! There is no way in heaven, hell or earth would a meek person be boasting that he is the meekest! This seem to be the writing of an extremely arrogant person!

This is only true if the person is writing about himself. If someone else wrote then it is a whole different matter.

The Jewish traditions had attributed Numbers and other works (in the Torah or Pentateuch) to be Moses, but that seems unlikely. There are experts who say that Torah was written in during David or Solomon's time, the time of Josiah (7th century king of Judah). Also Moses appearance in the narratives was always written in the 3rd person; there is no "I" or "me", except in dialogs; that seems someone else wrote them.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Only a vain and arrogant person would write something like this about himself.

In your humble opinion?

 

[gnostic]

In your humble opinion?

In my opinion.

Could you use meekest to describe yourself, without sounding vain or self-conceited?

If you wrote about another person or someone wrote about you being the "meekest of men", then I could not find fault with that, except that I may disagree, but I wouldn't think of you as being vain or arrogant.

On the other hand, if you use meekest, or other adjectives, like best, greatest, perfect, wisest, strongest, most beautiful, etc, to describe yourself, then I, or anyone else, would find this to be nothing more than self-conceited and vain self-promotion.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In my opinion.

Could you use meekest to describe yourself, without sounding vain or self-conceited?

If you wrote about another person or someone wrote about you being the "meekest of men", then I could not find fault with that, except that I may disagree, but I wouldn't think of you as being vain or arrogant.

On the other hand, if you use meekest, or other adjectives, like best, greatest, perfect, wisest, strongest, most beautiful, etc, to describe yourself, then I, or anyone else, would find this to be nothing more than self-conceited and vain self-promotion.

Methinks you misunderstand meekness.

 

[gnostic]

Methinks you misunderstand meekness.

Then what do you meekness mean?

I have no problem if Moses was truly meek. I only have write about "himself" as being unique. This depends if Moses wrote the Book of Numbers, or someone else wrote the book. Since the Torah, which included Numbers have been attributed to Moses, then it is possible that he wrote it, but it is also possible he didn't.

If Moses did write Numbers, then such description of himself (as being the "meekest"), then I can consider to have large ego and vanity.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Then what do you meekness mean?

What I think it means is meaningless.

Merriam Webster's defines it thus:
Main Entry: meek
1 : enduring injury with patience and without resentment 2 : deficient in spirit and courage 3 : not violent or strong

Nothing in there suggests to me that declaring one's meekness violates the characteristic of being meek.

 

[gnostic]

Meek is also synonymous with modest, humble, unassuming. So the opposite of modest, humble, unassuming....and meek of course, is "arrogant".

 

[crystalonyx]

The idea that a supposed heaven is "up" is ridiculous.

 

[jtartar]

Did Moses die? Or did he ascend?

Enoch and Elijah were two known to have ascended without dying. It say he died, but it is not known where he was buried.

gnostic,
The Bible tells us that Enoch was transferred, so as not to SEE death, Heb 11:5. At Gen 5:24 we see that Enoch walked with God, then he was no more, for God took him. Still Enoch died as we are told at Heb 11:13, where we are told that ALL these died, the ones mentioned just before.
The Bible says that Moses died, Deut 34:5-7.
As for Elijah, when he went heavenward in the flaming chariot, he was taken to another place on earth, 2Kings 2:11. About 9 or ten years later Elijah wrote a letter to one of the kings of Judah, Jehoram, 2Chron 21:12.
We also have the best testimony from Jesus as to whether any of these men went to heaven. Consider what Jesus said at John 3:13. Jesus said that NO MAN has ascended to heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.

 

[gnostic]

Jesus said that NO MAN has ascended to heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.

But doesn't the Transfiguration episode debunk Jesus' claim that no man had ascended to heaven, when Elijah appeared in the mountain with Moses? The claim and episode is contradiction to one another.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Meek is also synonymous with modest, humble, unassuming. So the opposite of modest, humble, unassuming....and meek of course, is "arrogant".

Use the proper word then. Moses' use of meekness to describe himself does not invalidate his meekness.

 

[gnostic]

Describing yourself as meek, I don't have any problem. It is suffix "-est" in "meekest" that make a person sound arrogant. It is like using the word "I am the greatest" or "I am the strongest" or "I am the smartest".

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Describing yourself as meek, I don't have any problem. It is suffix "-est" in "meekest" that make a person sound arrogant. It is like using the word "I am the greatest" or "I am the strongest" or "I am the smartest".

You're obviously going to continue to use meek against it's definition to make your point. I call that obstinate ignorance.

 

[gnostic]

You're obviously going to continue to use meek against it's definition to make your point. I call that obstinate ignorance.

Well, I wasn't the one who wrote the passage in the Book of Numbers. It is not my fault that the author (could be Moses) or someone else wrote the book. I just interpret the bible, just as much as you do. So you're just as obstinate in your ignorance to ignore the choice of words used.

Francine has already given us the King James' Version.

Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.

The following

Moses was a humble man, more humble than anyone else on earth.

Moses was a very humble man, more so than any other man on earth.

Considering how many people who lived on earth in the tens of millions of people that he has not met, then can Moses truly judge himself as being most humble on earth?

It sounds like self-promotion, IF (and only "if") Moses truly was TRULY the author of Numbers. (If Moses didn't write these books of the Torah, then I have no issue with the wording and this change in subject is moot.)

 

[logician]

The transfiguration was a very obvious made up story, besides being impossible. It is doubtful Moses was anything but a fable himself.

 

[gnostic]

It is doubtful Moses was anything but a fable himself.

Perhaps he is.

The transfiguration was a very obvious made up story, besides being impossible.

And perhaps it is.

But I would like to confine the debate in CONTEXT of the biblical literature, even though I think it is not true and I don't believe in the story. I would either prove or disprove the narrative from my perspective and my logic, instead of simply dismiss it outright as simply a myth.

I would also like to hear the Christian, Jew or Muslim's side to this story, even though I may disagree with them.

From the way I see it, Moses was possibly an ascended being, spirit or whatever you like to call it, so he is possibly an angel in the Transfiguration episode. If this is the case, then Moses had ascended before Jesus had died and resurrected, which is the whole point of this topic.

 

[crystalonyx]

Perhaps he is.



And perhaps it is.

But I would like to confine the debate in CONTEXT of the biblical literature, even though I think it is not true and I don't believe in the story. I would either prove or disprove the narrative from my perspective and my logic, instead of simply dismiss it outright as simply a myth.

I would also like to hear the Christian, Jew or Muslim's side to this story, even though I may disagree with them.

From the way I see it, Moses was possibly an ascended being, spirit or whatever you like to call it, so he is possibly an angel in the Transfiguration episode. If this is the case, then Moses had ascended before Jesus had died and resurrected, which is the whole point of this topic.

Why would Moses, a Jew, ascend to a Christian heaven?

 

[gnostic]

Why would Moses, a Jew, ascend to a Christian heaven?

I am speculating over the appearance of Moses' fate in the Transfiguration episode, if you haven't figure that out yet.

Did he become an ascended being after his death? An angel?

The gospels and Christians seem to indicate that Jesus was the 1st to be resurrected, an ascended being, but the gospels contradict that with Moses' appearance on the mountain, appearing before Jesus and his inner circle of closest apostles.

 

[crystalonyx]

I am speculating over the appearance of Moses' fate in the Transfiguration episode, if you haven't figure that out yet.

Did he become an ascended being after his death? An angel?

The gospels and Christians seem to indicate that Jesus was the 1st to be resurrected, an ascended being, but the gospels contradict that with Moses' appearance on the mountain, appearing before Jesus and his inner circle of closest apostles.

Just another of the ridiculous attempts to make it seem like the OT was just a precursor to the NT, when actually nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Well, I wasn't the one who wrote the passage in the Book of Numbers. It is not my fault that the author (could be Moses) or someone else wrote the book. I just interpret the bible, just as much as you do. So you're just as obstinate in your ignorance to ignore the choice of words used.

Gobbledygook.