Did Osama Bin Laden Win the "War on Terror"?

[Revoltingest]

whatever! take a look around the world some people watch their children die for lack of water. We in the west were doing goooooood.

"Whatever"....you sound like one of my kids.....except you haven't asked me for money or help with homework.
(Although.....I will help if you ask, depending upon the subject.)
I don't doubt that some people in other countries are worse off than we are.
However, we suffered a huge financial loss, one which put all my commercial real estate in foreclosure,
& sent friends/associates into bankruptcy & homelessness...& that is where I see Usama as scoring a win.
Americans also gave much liberty in exchange for restrictive & invasive security theater too.

 

[Willamena]

...& that is where I see Usama as scoring a win.

It isn't his win. All the damage done, the US did to themselves.

 

[Revoltingest]

It isn't his win. All the damage done, the US did to themselves.

And therein lies the beauty of his win...we do it to ourselves.

 

[kai]

"Whatever"....you sound like one of my kids.....except you haven't asked me for money or help with homework.
(Although.....I will help if you ask, depending upon the subject.)
I don't doubt that some people in other countries are worse off than we are.
However, we suffered a huge financial loss, one which put all my commercial real estate in foreclosure,
& sent friends into bankruptcy & homelessness...& that is where I see Usama as scoring a win.

Ok you credit him for that, personally i think your making him the bogeyman, even with a huge financial loss your still very very well off compared to most.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ok you credit him for that, personally i think your making him the bogeyman, even with a huge financial loss your still very very well off compared to most.

Usama was merely one of many players (albeit a key player) in what happened.
There is no bogyman.
I see the US as creating the conditions for terrorists seeing us as a target.
As for how well off I am....you have no idea.
But again, your cavalier dismissal of a huge loss just because someone else somewhere is poorer is a red herring.

 

[England my lionheart]

well lets see! did he achieve his objectives?

I believe they were to:

Drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.

My Verdict =Failed dismally.

What he said

 

[Marble]

Drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia;

failed

destroy Israel;

failed

and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East.

Muslims are about to get rid of their dictators (Egypt, Syria, Libya) but that has nothing to do with Al-Quaida.

Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.

The Islamic world is very diverse.
First there are the denominations, Shai & Sunna, than the cultures are different - I do not think it would be possible to unite all Muslims under one leader.

 

[gnomon]

Post 9/11 what did we get:

1) Illegal wiretapping
2) US citizens held without due process and tortured
3) Expansion of the President's power to classify documents
4) A protracted war in Afghanistan which some claim was one of bin Laden's goals. We also went on an ill informed campaign in Iraq. We are still in both with a cost over a trillion dollars.
5) It is now a crime to advocate for any organization that is deemed to support terrorism. Does this mean NORML supports terrorism since NORML works for the repeal of marijuana laws and the government also claims that marijuana smokers support terrorism?
6) US Muslims cannot build a mosque in the US now without being treated like garbage
7) The Department of Homeland Security now provide grants to local law enforcement who have used that to step up drug enforcement which has been useless in stemming drug use but has led to a rise in military style, with all apologies to the military, raids on end users and innocent people

I agree with Patty. bin Laden didn't win. But we sure as hell didn't win either.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wouldn't say he won it, but got America to show the world just how much we can let anger, hatred, and an unrealistic view of justice destroy our economy and liberties.

 

[Sunstone]

It isn't his win. All the damage done, the US did to themselves.

Just out of curiosity, if it could be demonstrated that Bin Laden had calculated on the US doing such damage to itself in response to the attacks on it, could it then be said that Bin Laden had achieved his goals in attacking the US?

 

[kai]

Usama was merely one of many players (albeit a key player) in what happened.
There is no bogyman.
I see the US as creating the conditions for terrorists seeing us as a target.
As for how well off I am....you have no idea.
But again, your cavalier dismissal of a huge loss just because someone else somewhere is poorer is a red herring.

Look attribute what you want to Bin Laden the truth is he failed in any of his aspirations, I dont want to know how well of you are personally,Its none of my business, when i say you, i mean the US.

The main condition for creating "islamic " terrorists is the very existence of Israel and US support for it, no change there,the next was US support for dictators in the middle east , those that havnt already fallen know their days are numbered and even that was not down to Bin Laden .


Its not cavalier its the truth ok your a little dented but are you finished? will you never recover ? you mean its all over?

 

[kai]

Post 9/11 what did we get:

1) Illegal wiretapping
2) US citizens held without due process and tortured
3) Expansion of the President's power to classify documents
4) A protracted war in Afghanistan which some claim was one of bin Laden's goals. We also went on an ill informed campaign in Iraq. We are still in both with a cost over a trillion dollars.
5) It is now a crime to advocate for any organization that is deemed to support terrorism. Does this mean NORML supports terrorism since NORML works for the repeal of marijuana laws and the government also claims that marijuana smokers support terrorism?
6) US Muslims cannot build a mosque in the US now without being treated like garbage
7) The Department of Homeland Security now provide grants to local law enforcement who have used that to step up drug enforcement which has been useless in stemming drug use but has led to a rise in military style, with all apologies to the military, raids on end users and innocent people

I agree with Patty. bin Laden didn't win. But we sure as hell didn't win either.

And you blame Bin Laden for that?

 

[kai]

Just out of curiosity, if it could be demonstrated that Bin Laden had calculated on the US doing such damage to itself in response to the attacks on it, could it then be said that Bin Laden had achieved his goals in attacking the US?

Is there any evidence that he projected this damage would be done did he predict it? or just claim responsibility for it? or have politicians etc passed the buck to him over it.


If it could be shown he planned this all along then what we had here was a villain far surpassing anything from the pen of Ian Fleming. One that people are now claiming won the war against the Soviets? How very different that would of been without US and western support. in my book that was a proxy war part of the greater cold war and the west won it, helping people like Ahmad Shah Massoud "Lion of Panjshir" not bin Laden, i mean come on,lets clear out all the hype.

 

[blackout]

Post 9/11 what did we get:

1) Illegal wiretapping
2) US citizens held without due process and tortured
3) Expansion of the President's power to classify documents
4) A protracted war in Afghanistan which some claim was one of bin Laden's goals. We also went on an ill informed campaign in Iraq. We are still in both with a cost over a trillion dollars.
5) It is now a crime to advocate for any organization that is deemed to support terrorism. Does this mean NORML supports terrorism since NORML works for the repeal of marijuana laws and the government also claims that marijuana smokers support terrorism?
6) US Muslims cannot build a mosque in the US now without being treated like garbage
7) The Department of Homeland Security now provide grants to local law enforcement who have used that to step up drug enforcement which has been useless in stemming drug use but has led to a rise in military style, with all apologies to the military, raids on end users and innocent people

I agree with Patty. bin Laden didn't win. But we sure as hell didn't win either.

And you blame Bin Laden for that?

I suppose you could say that the United States Government won.

 

[gnomon]

And you blame Bin Laden for that?

I blame the response to the terrorist attacks in 2001. There was more to it than just bin Laden. This war on terror is still ongoing as well. But you cannot unlink bin Laden and al-qaeda. The restriction of civil liberties in response to those attacks do not compare to prior wars. Namely in that those prior wars had an end. A war on terror does not end. The degree of power given to the President has increased as well.

I won't say bin Laden won. But we didn't either. Osama is dead. So are a couple of hundred thousand people in Afghanistan and Iraq. No reason for us to have invaded Iraq. That's so apparent now not only to US and British intelligence agencies but to the prior administration as well. Afghanistan. No reason truly for that as well.

Given that both invasions and the restructuring of our domestic policies were in direct response to the attacks by al-qaeda, domestic policies whose design hold questionable security and can harm our own citizens, I fail to see anyone winning any war.

It's the same old situation.

Of course, I'm still glad Osama's dead.

 

[Revoltingest]

Look attribute what you want to Bin Laden the truth is he failed in any of his aspirations....

You're quibbling. To say he won or lost is a perspective, rather than a matter of fact.

I dont want to know how well of you are personally,Its none of my business, when i say you, i mean the US.

You might want to be clearer about that in the future.

The main condition for creating "islamic " terrorists is the very existence of Israel and US support for it, no change there,the next was US support for dictators in the middle east , those that havnt already fallen know their days are numbered and even that was not down to Bin Laden .
Its not cavalier its the truth ok your a little dented but are you finished? will you never recover ? you mean its all over?

Again, you quibble. One can win a battle or even a war without vanquishing one's foe. Usama caused a huge loss in the US, exceeding a
$trillion, that could be called a victory for a single guy to orchestrate. If you disagree, then so be it. You're welcome to your perspective.

 

[Bismillah]

The cost of bin Laden: $3 trillion over 15 years - Yahoo! News

Sounds like if one man caused THIS, then that must be the paradigm for wannabe Jihadists. While the U.S had everything to lose, a man like Bin Laden was content with approaching death. I think he won.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If you count murderous sociopaths causing chaos and death as winning, then yes he's a huge winner. Of course, he's not as big a winner as that Hitler guy - now there was a friggin champion.

 

[Bismillah]

If you count murderous sociopaths causing chaos and death as winning, then yes he's a huge winner. Of course, he's not as big a winner as that Hitler guy - now there was a friggin champion.

Considering that was his goal, to cause as much physical and economic damage as possible, I think we can say he excelled in what he wanted.

Also the article I linked discusses Hitler and how the two cases vary slightly as Hitler brought whole countries to war (led his own to ruin) and allowed the U.S to escape the depression whereas OBL has largely acted within a paramilitary organization but still managed to entangle the U.S into two wars as well as the fact that the massive amount of military and defensive spending have not done much good.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

He did succeed in costing the U.S. an enormous amount of money, not to mention the lives of thousands of Americans destroyed by the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think the U.S. definitely made a huge strategic mistake in pursuing these wars, and this played in the hands of Bin Laden.

On the other hand, a lot of Al-Qaeda leaders and operatives were killed, and assets frozen. Al-Qaeda was pretty much defeated in Iraq. And the Taliban were crushed in 2001. Although there has been a resurgence of the Taliban, they are distancing themselves from Al-Qaeda and the ideology of global jihad (attacks on U.S. and allied soil). So Bin Laden did succeed in hurting the U.S. politically and economically, but he paid a high price for this.