Did Paul Corrupt Christianity?

[oldbadger]

We know nothing other then that Jesus was Jewish and according to the story, went to, and taught in, the Jewish Temple. Thus he taught Tanakh.

I think he went there in the last week, demonstrated, picketed and debated.
And 'Yes' he supported all of the laws lof Moses...... the lot, including the poor laws.... especially the poor-laws.

He complains about the letter of the law, rather then them understanding. And about a corrupt priesthood.

Absolutely.

We only have a story about him, - written after he was dead, - and couldn't proofread it.

Yep.

The majority of the story is probably false. = virgin births, a God for a father, etc.

I'm interested in the story of the virgin birth.
Stories about her cousin (aunty?) being married to a Levite could just pop her into the lower Levite orders. Celcius's story about her being a Temple virgin (possibly in Sepphoris?) and being partner or rape-victim to Patronus could tie in with the Sepphoris revolt and Roman siege?
After the siege she somehow got clear (that Roman again?) and legged it Southwards with....... Joseph.

Yeah. yeah........ wild guesses, but......... ?

 

[Dawnofhope]

did paul corrupt the original christianity as some believe?


He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”

Paul affirmed the Teachings of Christ and taught the gospel (truth) founded on the teachings of Christ. The differences are cultural, and it is the same message taught in a different way to a different audience. While Jesus taught to an almost exclusively Jewish audience, Paul taught the same message to a Greco-Roman audience. There are no genuine contradictions between what Paul and Christ taught, only our difficulties to understand the essence of the Christian message, whether through Christ or Paul or any other apostle, and apply those Teachings to our lives.

 

[Phantasman]

I think he went there in the last week, demonstrated, picketed and debated.
And 'Yes' he supported all of the laws lof Moses...... the lot, including the poor laws.... especially the poor-laws.


Absolutely.


Yep.


I'm interested in the story of the virgin birth.
Stories about her cousin (aunty?) being married to a Levite could just pop her into the lower Levite orders. Celcius's story about her being a Temple virgin (possibly in Sepphoris?) and being partner or rape-victim to Patronus could tie in with the Sepphoris revolt and Roman siege?
After the siege she somehow got clear (that Roman again?) and legged it Southwards with....... Joseph.

Yeah. yeah........ wild guesses, but......... ?

I don't believe Jesus supported all of the laws of Moses. Things like diets and circumcisions were redefined on a spiritual level. Father and mother, as well as Sabbath, were redefined as well. Jesus two commandments gave a new (spiritual) perspective of the physical law of Moses. For example, adultery wasn't the act of flesh, but of the heart. The Spirit became the guide, over the words of men.

Jesus coming from flesh has no importance. His spirit gave us the Word. Had flesh had been of value, it wouldn't have succumbed to death. John 6:63

The perspective of orthodoxy teaches that Jesus was flesh. And many see it from John:

1 John 4:
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

But John was speaking of the Christ being in our flesh, not that he had to be seen as being flesh.

Jesus said to eat his flesh, then it disappears.

The Word became flesh (to eat), not skin and bones.

"Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness".- Gospel of Philip

Orthodoxy turns the spirit into flesh.

Luke 24:39 is a pseudo statement, IMO. Because so many other instances disputes Jesus becoming flesh and bones.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.- John

Paul speaks of the chrism that makes a Christ:
Romans:
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Holy Spirit = Spirit (capital S). What made Jesus the Christ was the chrism which is what Christ means. When he gave us the Spirit, we become sons of God as well.

 

[wizanda]

Yeshua's (Jesus) mission was the foundation of Christianity. and not the Hellenist Roman version.

Christianity came about after, and was first termed in Antioch for Paul and Simon the stone's ministry (Acts 11:26)...

Originally followers of Yeshua were called Followers of the Way or Ebionites... They didn't believe he came to die as a sacrifice, that is something that came about after.

In my opinion.

 

[DennisTate]

did paul corrupt the original christianity as some believe?


He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”

To a degree..... yes......
Paul was only human and 99.9% of us humans tend to get a little angry ..... ok maybe a lot angry.......when
things like this happen:

Acts 23:20

¶
And he said, The Jews have agreed to desire thee that thou wouldest bring down Paul to morrow into the council, as though they would enquire somewhat of him more perfectly.
But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath, that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee."

Paul's anger issues affected his writings.....
But in 1995 he was able to speak to a gifted Christian in a dream and set the stage for
reconciliation between a significant portion of Christianity with Judaism.

 

[DennisTate]

Pastor Rick Joyner.......

The Final Quest [English] Rick Joyner

"By the grace of God I was able to finish my course, but I still did not walk in all that I was called to. I fell short of the highest purposes I could have walked in—everyone has. I know that some would practically consider it blasphemy to think of me as anything less than the greatest example of Christian ministry, yet I was being honest when I wrote near the end of my life that I was the greatest of sinners. I was not saying that I had been the greatest of sinners, but rather that I was the greatest of sinners then. Even though I had been given so much understanding, I walked in comparatively little of it.”

“How could that possibly be?” I asked. “I thought you were just being humble.”

“True humility is agreement with the truth. Do not fear. My letters were true, and they were written by the anointing of the Holy Spirit. However, I was given so much, and I did not use all that I was given. I, too, fell short. Everyone here has fallen short, except One. The reason you must see this particularly about me is that many are still distorting my teachings, because they have a distorted view of me.”

“As you saw the progression in my letters, I went from feeling that I was not inferior to even the most eminent apostles, to acknowledging that I was the least of the apostles. I then saw that I was the least of the saints, and finally that I was the greatest of sinners. I was not just being humble, but I was speaking sober truth. I was entrusted with much more than I used. There is only One here who fully believed, who fully obeyed, and who truly finished all that He was given to do. But you can walk in much more than I did.”

Rediscovering the Foundation

Rather feebly, I replied, “I know that what you are saying is true, but are you sure this is the most important message you could give to us for the last battle?”

“I am sure!” he replied with utter conviction. “I so appreciate the grace of the Lord to use my letters as He has, but I am concerned with the way many of you are using them improperly. They are the truth of the Holy Spirit and they are Scripture. The Lord did give me great stones to set into the structure of His eternal church, but they are not foundation stones. The foundation stones were laid by Jesus alone. My life and ministry are not the example of what you are called to be; Jesus alone is that.

“If what I have written is used as a foundation, it will not be able to hold the weight of that which needs to be built upon it. What I have written must be built upon the only Foundation that can withstand what you are about to endure; it must not be used as the foundation. You must see my teachings through the Lord’s teachings, not try to understand Him from my perspective. His words are the foundation. I have only built upon them by elaborating onHis words. The greatest wisdom and the most powerful truths are His words, not mine." (Pastor Rick Joyner, from The Vision)

 

[DennisTate]

For the record... my anger issues with my two favourite churches.......
(yes... .they are still my two favourite churches)......
but my anger issues with the leadership there affect my writings.......
Sorry.......


It is a seriously bad idea to get angry with G-d!

 

[Kenny]

nothing like that, it says when you START as believer you see God as thru dark glass without understanding - it is faith, than you KNOW in part that is hope, and finally you fully know (Gnosis in Greek) only than you are known by God - AGAPE .
Three stages of maturing of a Christian - Faith, Hope, Agape (love).

Yes, there is a progression of spiritual growth, but I don't see this application.

By grace you are saved through faith...

That is at the very beginning of being born again. Thus faith (KNOW) is birthed immediately and the Holy Spirit bears witness with your spirit that you are a child of God (known)

We will not understand everything until we put off the limitations of our bodies. IMV

 

[oldbadger]

I don't believe Jesus supported all of the laws of Moses.

He assured all that he intended to change nothing, apart from the 106 sacrificial laws which he was actually obstructing through baptisms.
'Mercy and not sacrifice'.

Things like diets and circumcisions were redefined on a spiritual level. Father and mother, as well as Sabbath, were redefined as well. Jesus two commandments gave a new (spiritual) perspective of the physical law of Moses. For example, adultery wasn't the act of flesh, but of the heart. The Spirit became the guide, over the words of men.

Diet and cicumcision redactions were nothing to do with Yeshua, and all the laws of Moses including the poor-laws were to be upheld..... it's what he was campaigning about.

Jesus coming from flesh has no importance. His spirit gave us the Word. Had flesh had been of value, it wouldn't have succumbed to death. John 6:63

Being a Deist, historical Jesus is everything to me.
John didn't actually know Jesus personally, and he mixed up the various accounts so badly on his time line tghat this is one of the clues to that.
Of course, if 'Spiritual Jesus' is all that matters, then the real Jesus shouldn't be a problem for you.

The perspective of orthodoxy teaches that Jesus was flesh. And many see it from John:

1 John 4:
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

But John was speaking of the Christ being in our flesh, not that he had to be seen as being flesh.

Jesus said to eat his flesh, then it disappears.

The Word became flesh (to eat), not skin and bones.

Ah, yes............... John.

"Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness".- Gospel of Philip

Philip............ do yiou think Philip was a witness?

Orthodoxy turns the spirit into flesh.

Luke 24:39 is a pseudo statement, IMO. Because so many other instances disputes Jesus becoming flesh and bones.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.- John

Well, Luke was a Levite Doctor...... more physical than spiritual.
Of course, Luke was not a witness.

Paul speaks of the chrism that makes a Christ:
Romans:
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Holy Spirit = Spirit (capital S). What made Jesus the Christ was the chrism which is what Christ means. When he gave us the Spirit, we become sons of God as well.

Paul...... the amazing thing about Paul is that, apart from communion and execution-resurrection, he never was able to write any anecdote about anything to do with Jesus (Yeshua) his life, incidents during his campaign, or anything else.
And Yeshua BarYosef never ever heard or knew the name Jesus or the title Christos.

It's fine if you want a spiritual mystical Jesus, but I do focus on Yeshua the real person.

 

[oldbadger]

Christianity came about after, and was first termed in Antioch for Paul and Simon the stone's ministry (Acts 11:26)...

Originally followers of Yeshua were called Followers of the Way or Ebionites... They didn't believe he came to die as a sacrifice, that is something that came about after.

In my opinion.

Question:-
What language is 'Ebionite' and do you know its transliteration?

 

[Kenny]

So you disagree.......


No it wasn't.
His mission was to continue on after Jochanan's arrest, campaigning against Temple and Priesthood corruption.
That's how he eventually got arrested, demonstratinmg and picketing in the Temple.

Hmmm.... that isn't what Jesus said.

 

[shunyadragon]

Question:-
What language is 'Ebionite' and do you know its transliteration?

Often used to describe early Jewish Christians who rejected the divinity of Jesus, and likely spoke Aramaic, Hebrew and possibly Greek.

 

[oldbadger]

Hmmm.... that isn't what Jesus said.

OK.......... I'm 'listening'.
What do you think that Jesus said and did?

 

[oldbadger]

Often used to describe early Jewish Christians who rejected the divinity of Jesus, and likely spoke Aramaic, Hebrew and possibly Greek.

Fair enough, but I'm looking to @wizanda about a transliteration and language for 'Ebionite'.
He's, like, one of the RF brains on those folks.

 

[wizanda]

What language is 'Ebionite' and do you know its transliteration?

Ebionites (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι Ebionaioi, derived from Hebrew אביונים ebyonim, ebionim, meaning "the poor" or "poor ones"), and fulfills prophecy in Zechariah 11:11, etc.

Often used to describe early Jewish Christians

The Ebionites were against Pauline Christianity.

In my opinion.

 

[socharlie]

Yes, there is a progression of spiritual growth, but I don't see this application.

By grace you are saved through faith...

That is at the very beginning of being born again. Thus faith (KNOW) is birthed immediately and the Holy Spirit bears witness with your spirit that you are a child of God (known)

We will not understand everything until we put off the limitations of our bodies. IMV

the word "faith" in Greek explains its nature, it means "to persuade". God persuades person that Spiritual is real - a gift that some dismiss and some see it and react upon to grow as 1 Cor 13 says.

 

[socharlie]

Ebionites (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι Ebionaioi, derived from Hebrew אביונים ebyonim, ebionim, meaning "the poor" or "poor ones"), and fulfills prophecy in Zechariah 11:11, etc.

The Ebionites were against Pauline Christianity.

In my opinion.

also that how Jerusalem Church of James called itself.
Only they asked that we should remember the poor; the same which I was also diligent to do.
Galatians 2:10

 

[sealchan]

did paul corrupt the original christianity as some believe?


He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”

For all we know the Gospel authors also corrupted Jesus. The Gospel authors wrote much later than Jesus and seemed to use common sources as if they had little or no first-hand knowledge.

Paul at least admits he never knew Jesus first-hand so he is definitely all second-hand information.

We don't have the direct teachings of Jesus--except, perhaps, in some of his sayings--with any certainty.

 

[socharlie]

For all we know the Gospel authors also corrupted Jesus. The Gospel authors wrote much later than Jesus and seemed to use common sources as if they had little or no first-hand knowledge.

Paul at least admits he never knew Jesus first-hand so he is definitely all second-hand information.

We don't have the direct teachings of Jesus--except, perhaps, in some of his sayings--with any certainty.

Paul received his information through direct visions.

 

[Kenny]

OK.......... I'm 'listening'.
What do you think that Jesus said and did?

Although you are right in that he issues to the ruling party...


And assuming that the record is correct his mission was(emphasis mine):

Matthew 5:17
“Don’t misunderstand why I have come—it isn’t to cancel the laws of Moses and the warnings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them and to make them all come true.

Matthew 9:13
Then he added, “Now go away and learn the meaning of this verse of Scripture, ‘It isn’t your sacrifices and your gifts I want—I want you to be merciful.’ For I have come to urge sinners, not the self-righteous, back to God.”

Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

John 9:39
Then Jesus told him, “I have come into the world to give sight to those who are spiritually blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind.”

John 12:47
If anyone hears me and doesn’t obey me, I am not his judge—for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.

He also came to do the will of the Father.