Did Paul Corrupt Christianity?

[OtherSheep]

Yes, Paul is the "Corrupter of the teachings of Jesus", and those who spread/propagate NT Bible are "Anti- Jesus" or "Anti-Christ".

Regards

Anti-Christs say God didn't come in the flesh... in other words, they say (1) God never had a son and (2) that worshipping Jesus is idolatry. The angel of Revelation tells John that a fellow worker is not to be worshipped; but in Revelation 1, John worships the Son of Man, and Jesus never told him not to.

The against-Christ people are waiting for "Satan disguised as an angel of light", which Paul saw... and then warns us against. ::
Jesus says don't go to the wilderness and expect to see Jesus' return... which Paul says he did.
Jesus tells us stay away from the inner room... where Paul had his ecstacy.
Jesus warns us that the Pharisees will persecute us from city to city and kill us, and scourge us in the synagogues... which Paul brags about doing.
When Judas fulfilled the prophecy about himself, even though he gave back the wages of sin, he was still doomed as the son of perdition simply by having fulfilled the scripture. The same thing is true of ALL of the Pharisees.
Jesus tells us that the Pharisees are the Beast, by pointing to Daniel, and then saying the Pharisees will be ground to powder... as Daniel said of the Beast.

In addition, the against-Christs blaspheme the Holy Spirit, by calling the Holy Spirit a demon. Jesus tells us THAT blasphemy will never be forgiven. At least twice in the New Testament, that blasphemy is done by two groups of people: those people and all who believe them, are the unforgiven.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, Paul is the "Corrupter of the teachings of Jesus", and those who spread/propagate NT Bible are "Anti- Jesus" or "Anti-Christ".

Regards

When reading the narratives...


Paul can be considered the prevare of the false Christ. They were instructions not to believe in any Jesus they meet before the prophecy was fulfilled, but Paul contradicted that and believed the first voice that met him on the road to Damascus that claimed to be Jesus.

A direct contradiction of Matthew 24:23.

 

[OtherSheep]

The above is very ignorant and nieve. Jesus stated their are many righteous while Paul states there are none. Jesus states all nations will be judged by their works: Paul says men are saved not by works lest any should boast Jesus said his followers could not serve 2 masters and that they had one master which is Christ. Paul states wife can servev2 masters and to submit to their husbands as though they were the Lord. As well Paul told earthly slaves to server their earthly masters in certain ways while Jesus's teachings of loving your neighbors as yourself and having only one master (Christ) totally condemn such teachings Paul taught. Paul said those who bore swords are ministers of God to execute wrath on those who do evil, while Jesus stated his words came from his heavenly father and that the words that he spoke the same will judge all mankind and Jesus totally condemned executing wrath on those who did evil.

Paul is an absolute heretic as are all that embrace him.

Paul claims that Adam is forgiven, but says the reverse about Eve. I forget who it was that called this the "Oriental contempt of women"... but, spot on!
Paul also set up the pyramid of masters... and claimed it was the work of God. Jesus says call no man your teacher or father. Paul says he has begotten us by his gospel of grace.
Jesus says ye are my disciples if ye continue. Paul says confess Christ and believe the resurrection et viola!
Paul says imputed righteousness by his faction's murder of Jesus. Jesus says the Pharisees killed Him to steal His inheritance.

The list could go on for several pages. Thank you, Peter Sawrie, for starting the list.

Edited to add:
Paul pretended that the Holy Spirit did other than ...
Jesus says The Holy Spirit reminds us of what JESUS said, and teaches us what JESUS meant.
Paul says chosen from the foundation of the world. Jesus says called and chosen and faithful.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, Paul is the "Corrupter of the teachings of Jesus", and those who spread/propagate NT Bible are "Anti- Jesus" or "Anti-Christ".

Regards

I believe of course that you have never proven this to my satisfaction. I believe it exists as a fantasy in your mind.

 

[Muffled]

The last NT canon corrupted the Gospel of the Kingdom, taught by Jesus.

Paul was a Babylonian Talmudist. He took the words of God and explained them away.

I believe you will hae to produce some evidence for that because the canon is generally accepted.

I believe you must have some magic ball you are looking through because I haven't seen anything like that.

 

[Muffled]

When reading the narratives...


Paul can be considered the prevare of the false Christ. They were instructions not to believe in any Jesus they meet before the prophecy was fulfilled, but Paul contradicted that and believed the first voice that met him on the road to Damascus that claimed to be Jesus.

A direct contradiction of Matthew 24:23.

I believe this one trumps Mat 24:23:
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I believe this one trumps Mat 24:23:
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

From the context of the chapter, the encounter was from what I can tell , physical since others in the narratives had heard and witnessed the exchange between Paul and the one he took as Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

did paul corrupt the original christianity as some believe?


He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”

Since all we know of either Paul or Jesus are the preserved writings, and since Paul's writings are generally earlier than the gospels, I don't see how one can extrapolate that Paul corrupted Jesus' teachings. If writers were influenced by other writers, it would be the later writers who corrupted the products of the earlier writers. In this case, then, the gospels would corrupt Paul. I don't think that happened; I think that a cursory read might make it seem that they're fundamentally different, but as one gets into the theology of the proto-church, one sees less theological difference.

 

[paarsurrey]

When reading the narratives...


Paul can be considered the prevare of the false Christ. They were instructions not to believe in any Jesus they meet before the prophecy was fulfilled, but Paul contradicted that and believed the first voice that met him on the road to Damascus that claimed to be Jesus.

A direct contradiction of Matthew 24:23.

So, you agree with me?

Regards

 

[OtherSheep]

the canon is generally accepted.

I believe you must have some magic ball you are looking through because I haven't seen anything like that.

Joh.15:19 "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own"

Matt.22:14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."

Joh.10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:"

Rev.17:14 "and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful."

 

[sojourner]

Paul absolutely corrupted his followers by preaching a different gospel and contradictory message from what Jesus taught.

In 2 Timothy chapter 1 verse 15 we see that Paul was clearly rejected by all of asia and John who actually walked with Jesus wrote the book of Revelations to the churches of Asia because of their rejection of Paul. It should be noted that the very first thing mentioned to the very first church was how they tried those who claimed to be Apostles and found them to be LIARS. Paul is known as the "Spouter of Lies" of the dead sea scrolls. In Matthew 25:31-46 the king (Jesus) seperates the nations by their works and if they did good they make heaven. But Paul told the Ephesians that they were saved by grace through faith, "NOT BY WORKS": lest any man should boast. The church of Ephesus is the same church commended for rejecting Paul, by John, in Revelations 2:2.

It should be noted that the early church in Jerusalem was scattered in 70 A.D. by the Roman Armies and it was the descendants of Paul's followers that came together in the 4th century to create the catholic church and the current books that make up the bible. The early church in Jerusalem did not use the teachings of Paul and were committed to following the teachings of Jesus as the way of Salvation;
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in my name (this is what the earlier text originally stated):
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

The command of Jesus was to make disciples who were committed to following his teachings, not this garbage that Paul's followers embrace: which clearly contradict what Jesus told his followers to do. According to the teachings of Jesus: salvation was by works, not by faith without works.

The problem with your premise is that Paul predates the Gospels by several decades. It seems more likely that a Paul had a better bead on Jesus than the gospelers did.

 

[sojourner]

The last NT canon corrupted the Gospel of the Kingdom, taught by Jesus.

Paul was a Babylonian Talmudist. He took the words of God and explained them away.

Since the texts are mostly in the “last NT canon” (whatever that is), I don’t know how you’re reading anything other than these “corrupt” texts. Unless you’re just going by Thomas, which seems unlikely.

 

[Spartan]

Cover Story: Jesus vs. Paul

Jesus vs. Paul
Many biblical scholars have noted that Jesus preached almost exclusively about the kingdom of heaven, while Paul highlighted justification by faith—and not vice versa. What gives?


http://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul

Paul and Jesus were much more alike on their doctrines than they were dissimilar. Numerous examples in the link below.

Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing? | CARM.org

 

[OtherSheep]

Since the texts are mostly in the “last NT canon” (whatever that is), I don’t know how you’re reading anything other than these “corrupt” texts. Unless you’re just going by Thomas, which seems unlikely.

Jesus tells us point blank whose words we are to believe. In His prayer to the Father, He prays for His Discipled Apostles, which were given to Him by the Father. And Jesus says that He prays for those who will believe THEIR WORD.

John 17:20
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word"

What word is that, you ask?

Matthew 28:19
"teach all nations ... to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"

Anyone who is teaching contrary to what Jesus taught His 12, is not a disciple of Jesus. And the only records we have, given to us from people who walked with Jesus the whole time of His earthly ministry, are the books of Matthew and John.

Luke wasn't there, and tells you he pretty much acted like a journalist, picking and chosing who to talk with, and what to believe from their accounts... at best. For all we know, Luke talked with people who had an axe to grind.

Hearsay isn't even good enough in a court of law... hopefully, still. The same thing can be said about Mark... Mark wasn't a Discipled Apostle, either.

And if you think Jesus was correct in saying that by the witness of two or more people is anything established... Paul's entire account falls to the ground. In fact, much of what Paul said is either commentary ripped out of context, or plainly restated from the Prophets themselves. What does Paul say that the OT hasn't already said, or that Jesus hasn't confirmed from the OT?

By Paul's own account, he fits the description of the woe'd Pharisees who would persecute from place to place, scourge to make them blaspheme, and murder outright... having fit the Prophecy of Matthew 23, Paul stood condemned.

People want to think that no matter what they do, they can be forgiven by God, and that's why they believe Saul of Cilicia's completely unverified claim.

God doesn't break His own rules. Saul had no witnesses to bring. And it's ludicrous to believe his circular argument, that his story of witnesses validates the story itself. If God had wanted Saul as a witness of 'undeserved grace', He wouldn't have always said repent THEN believe.

Saul was still cursing the Son of God, when he was supposedly saved by grace alone through faith alone... Nonsense! faith in Jesus is required FIRST. That never happened to Saul.

And the people who think that Jesus left things undone and unsaid... or that everything changed when Jesus was murdered for His inheritance by the Pharisees... well, THESE are the ones who take the Pharisees word over that of Jesus Himself. They don't see at all what differences exist between the Gospel of the Kingdom and that blasphemous gospel of 'grace unearned', because the blind led the blind.

Grace unearned is anomia=without law, iniquity... "all things are lawful" to Saul.

Jesus says He will give to us according to our works, in Revelation... in Matthew, He says to observe whatsoever He taught and commanded us... these are our works.

And the Holy Spirit's job, according to Jesus, is to remind us of WHAT JESUS SAID, and to teach us what Jesus meant... What place has Saulianity's 'gifts'? NONE AT ALL.
Jesus says to go unto all the Nations and teach them... What job does that leave the self-annointed 'apostle to the gentiles'? ZERO.
Jesus says He is the good shepherd... What does that make Saul? A HIRELING... at best.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus tells us point blank whose words we are to believe. In His prayer to the Father, He prays for His Discipled Apostles, which were given to Him by the Father. And Jesus says that He prays for those who will believe THEIR WORD.

John 17:20
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word"

What word is that, you ask?

Matthew 28:19
"teach all nations ... to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"

Anyone who is teaching contrary to what Jesus taught His 12, is not a disciple of Jesus. And the only records we have, given to us from people who walked with Jesus the whole time of His earthly ministry, are the books of Matthew and John.

Luke wasn't there, and tells you he pretty much acted like a journalist, picking and chosing who to talk with, and what to believe from their accounts... at best. For all we know, Luke talked with people who had an axe to grind.

Hearsay isn't even good enough in a court of law... hopefully, still. The same thing can be said about Mark... Mark wasn't a Discipled Apostle, either.

And if you think Jesus was correct in saying that by the witness of two or more people is anything established... Paul's entire account falls to the ground. In fact, much of what Paul said is either commentary ripped out of context, or plainly restated from the Prophets themselves. What does Paul say that the OT hasn't already said, or that Jesus hasn't confirmed from the OT?

By Paul's own account, he fits the description of the woe'd Pharisees who would persecute from place to place, scourge to make them blaspheme, and murder outright... having fit the Prophecy of Matthew 23, Paul stood condemned.

People want to think that no matter what they do, they can be forgiven by God, and that's why they believe Saul of Cilicia's completely unverified claim.

God doesn't break His own rules. Saul had no witnesses to bring. And it's ludicrous to believe his circular argument, that his story of witnesses validates the story itself. If God had wanted Saul as a witness of 'undeserved grace', He wouldn't have always said repent THEN believe.

Saul was still cursing the Son of God, when he was supposedly saved by grace alone through faith alone... Nonsense! faith in Jesus is required FIRST. That never happened to Saul.

And the people who think that Jesus left things undone and unsaid... or that everything changed when Jesus was murdered for His inheritance by the Pharisees... well, THESE are the ones who take the Pharisees word over that of Jesus Himself. They don't see at all what differences exist between the Gospel of the Kingdom and that blasphemous gospel of 'grace unearned', because the blind led the blind.

Grace unearned is anomia=without law, iniquity... "all things are lawful" to Saul.

Jesus says He will give to us according to our works, in Revelation... in Matthew, He says to observe whatsoever He taught and commanded us... these are our works.

And the Holy Spirit's job, according to Jesus, is to remind us of WHAT JESUS SAID, and to teach us what Jesus meant... What place has Saulianity's 'gifts'? NONE AT ALL.
Jesus says to go unto all the Nations and teach them... What job does that leave the self-annointed 'apostle to the gentiles'? ZERO.
Jesus says He is the good shepherd... What does that make Saul? A HIRELING... at best.

None ... let me repeat: none ... of the gospelers knew Jesus. Not the writer of Matthew, and especially not John. These books are waaay too late to have been written by contemporaries of Jesus. Add to that the fact that Matthew wasn’t even written by a Judean Jew; it was written by a diaspora Jew. Additionally, Paul’s letters are earlier than the gospels. You’ve got this all worked out in your head, but everything you know is wrong.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

did paul corrupt the original christianity as some believe?


He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”

Paul essentially flooded the Church with Gentiles. Then he had to teach them they were fine with being Gentiles and did not need to become Jews and take upon themselves circumcision (meaning the 613 laws of Moses). He did this without thinking about the future ramifications because he expected Jesus to return very soon.

The problem was, Jesus did not return, and has still not return, and the net result of Paul's activities among the Gentiles and what he taught them was to turn a Jewish sect into a Gentile church that was hostile to Jews.

So while he did not intend it so, yes, he changed Christianity into a whole new religion.

 

[OtherSheep]

None ... let me repeat: none ... of the gospelers knew Jesus. Not the writer of Matthew, and especially not John. These books are waaay too late to have been written by contemporaries of Jesus. Add to that the fact that Matthew wasn’t even written by a Judean Jew; it was written by a diaspora Jew. Additionally, Paul’s letters are earlier than the gospels. You’ve got this all worked out in your head, but everything you know is wrong.

Don't believe everything they say.


The two witnesses you want to throw away could tell you where Jesus found the Apostles He Discipled.
Jesus says in John 17 that these men belonged to His Father, that He prays for them and for those who believe on Him because of their word. THEIR word.
Jesus told Peter to feed His flock... feed means teach, here, of course.
Peter and John and their brothers were the first and favored 4... they were witness to crucial events... John tells us about the prayer in chapter 17, because John hadn't fallen asleep. This is the sort of criteria people like me use when deciding who actually wrote what.

Find out about the Divided Kingdom, and stop calling Israel the Jews.thanx

Jesus "came only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."
THE KINGDOM IS STILL DIVIDED:
So, the House of Israel is the 10 Northern Tribes.
The House of Judah is: Benjamin, Levi, & Judah.

NOW, about Saul of Benjamin...

"The first collection of the Pauline epistles is believed to be that of Marcion of Sinope in the early 2nd century, although it is possible that Paul first collected his letters for publication himself. Paul's collection circulated separately from other early Christian writings and was later added to the New Testament."
Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

And the guy who found his letters...

"Marcion of Sinope preached that the god who sent Jesus into the world was a different, higher deity than the creator god of Judaism. He considered himself a follower of Paul the Apostle, who he believed to have been the only true apostle of Jesus Christ.
Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian denounced Marcion as a heretic, and he was excommunicated by the church of Rome around 144 CE."
Marcion of Sinope - Wikipedia

So, from TERTULLIAN, AGAINST MARCION,
Book V.

"... O shipmaster of Pontus [Marcion], if you have never taken on board your small craft any contraband goods or smuggler's cargo, if you have never thrown overboard or tampered with a freight, you are still more careful and conscientious, I doubt not, in divine things; and so I should be glad if you would inform us under what bill of lading you admitted the Apostle Paul on board, who ticketed him, what owner forwarded him, who handed him to you, that so you may land him without any misgiving, lest he should turn out to belong to him, who can substantiate his claim to him by producing all his apostolic writings. He professes himself to be "an apostle"--to use his own, words--"not of men, nor by man, but by Jesus Christ." Of course, any one may make a profession concerning himself; but his profession is only rendered valid by the authority of a second person. One man signs, another countersigns; one man appends his seal, another registers in the public records. No one is at once a proposer and a seconder to himself."[bold added]
Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)


And it doesn't get better after that, either,
because Tertullian goes on to say,

"Because even the book of Genesis so long ago promised me the Apostle Paul. For among the types and prophetic blessings which he pronounced over his sons, Jacob, when he turned his attention to Benjamin, exclaimed, "Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf; in the morning He shall devour the prey, and at night he shall impart nourishment." He foresaw that Paul would arise out of the tribe of Benjamin, a voracious wolf, devouring his prey in the morning: in order words, in the early period of his life he would devastate the Lord's sheep, as a persecutor of the churches; but in the evening he would give them nourishment, which means that in his declining years he would educate the fold of Christ, as the teacher of the Gentiles."

The leaven of the Pharisee... is nourishment?
What does KJV say?
"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil."
That's more like it... Jesus says the Pharisees would kill Him for His inheritance.
________________________
Now, if one were a careful man, he could begin to suspect,
that by specifically targeting the Gentiles,
Saul was fulfilling the prophecy of...
Matthew 23:13 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
... specifically against the Gentiles.

 

[sojourner]

Don't believe everything they say.


The two witnesses you want to throw away could tell you where Jesus found the Apostles He Discipled.
Jesus says in John 17 that these men belonged to His Father, that He prays for them and for those who believe on Him because of their word. THEIR word.
Jesus told Peter to feed His flock... feed means teach, here, of course.
Peter and John and their brothers were the first and favored 4... they were witness to crucial events... John tells us about the prayer in chapter 17, because John hadn't fallen asleep. This is the sort of criteria people like me use when deciding who actually wrote what.

Find out about the Divided Kingdom, and stop calling Israel the Jews.thanx

Jesus "came only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."
THE KINGDOM IS STILL DIVIDED:
So, the House of Israel is the 10 Northern Tribes.
The House of Judah is: Benjamin, Levi, & Judah.

NOW, about Saul of Benjamin...

"The first collection of the Pauline epistles is believed to be that of Marcion of Sinope in the early 2nd century, although it is possible that Paul first collected his letters for publication himself. Paul's collection circulated separately from other early Christian writings and was later added to the New Testament."
Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

And the guy who found his letters...

"Marcion of Sinope preached that the god who sent Jesus into the world was a different, higher deity than the creator god of Judaism. He considered himself a follower of Paul the Apostle, who he believed to have been the only true apostle of Jesus Christ.
Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian denounced Marcion as a heretic, and he was excommunicated by the church of Rome around 144 CE."
Marcion of Sinope - Wikipedia

So, from TERTULLIAN, AGAINST MARCION,
Book V.

"... O shipmaster of Pontus [Marcion], if you have never taken on board your small craft any contraband goods or smuggler's cargo, if you have never thrown overboard or tampered with a freight, you are still more careful and conscientious, I doubt not, in divine things; and so I should be glad if you would inform us under what bill of lading you admitted the Apostle Paul on board, who ticketed him, what owner forwarded him, who handed him to you, that so you may land him without any misgiving, lest he should turn out to belong to him, who can substantiate his claim to him by producing all his apostolic writings. He professes himself to be "an apostle"--to use his own, words--"not of men, nor by man, but by Jesus Christ." Of course, any one may make a profession concerning himself; but his profession is only rendered valid by the authority of a second person. One man signs, another countersigns; one man appends his seal, another registers in the public records. No one is at once a proposer and a seconder to himself."[bold added]
Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)


And it doesn't get better after that, either,
because Tertullian goes on to say,

"Because even the book of Genesis so long ago promised me the Apostle Paul. For among the types and prophetic blessings which he pronounced over his sons, Jacob, when he turned his attention to Benjamin, exclaimed, "Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf; in the morning He shall devour the prey, and at night he shall impart nourishment." He foresaw that Paul would arise out of the tribe of Benjamin, a voracious wolf, devouring his prey in the morning: in order words, in the early period of his life he would devastate the Lord's sheep, as a persecutor of the churches; but in the evening he would give them nourishment, which means that in his declining years he would educate the fold of Christ, as the teacher of the Gentiles."

The leaven of the Pharisee... is nourishment?
What does KJV say?
"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil."
That's more like it... Jesus says the Pharisees would kill Him for His inheritance.
________________________
Now, if one were a careful man, he could begin to suspect,
that by specifically targeting the Gentiles,
Saul was fulfilling the prophecy of...
Matthew 23:13 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
... specifically against the Gentiles.

So... Wikipedia is suddenly a MUCH better resource than peer-reviewed scholars, because... internet.

 

[1213]

did paul corrupt the original christianity as some believe?

I don’t think so, but he taught many difficult teachings that people after him twisted for wrong purposes.

 

[Muffled]

From the context of the chapter, the encounter was from what I can tell , physical since others in the narratives had heard and witnessed the exchange between Paul and the one he took as Jesus.

I believe they heard but did not see which makes it less likely to be physical. God is all powerful and can produce the sound of a voice and a vision of Jesus.
Acts 9:7 .... hearing the voice but seeing no one