Did Ramana Maharshi teach about Brahman and Maya?

[Martin]

Preaching and Prozelytise??

See Martin, when people went to Ramana Maharshi and asked many questions, he keep on replying to find "Who am I". Does it look prozelytise??

When Sankara went to all debates, he keep on making his view firmly to all the questions raised. Does it look prozelytise??

See, everyone is free here to do anything and share anything. It's all upto other one, to take it or leave it or praise it or condemning it or make fun of it.

You condemning it, it's fine. It's all upto you.

I searched and inquired in many ways, like you did/doing, and finally reached this point and I share it out of compassion for the questions raised. If no questions raised, then nothing is there to share for me. I have no one to change them and create a disciple/all funny things. If someone looks it valuable, let them take it. I don't have anything to do about it. If you don't think it's good/right, Leave it, and I apologize if the post worried you. But, there is nothing I'm proselytising - and so you don't waste your precious time in condemning (or praise or make fun) of it. Either take or leave, again it's for your own good, but you are free to do/say/share anything about it.

Take care.

Peace.

It was a general comment, not aimed at you.

 

[Martin]

The complete blank itself is a memory. It denotes absence of dreams, and that itself is an act of cognizance.

In fact, it is my observation that the practice of good meditation before sleep ensures refreshing deep sleep without any dreams, unpleasant or pleasant.

Obviously meditation or thoughtless awareness seems to bring about mental hygiene and deep sleep as well. For me this was proof that meditation and deep sleep were somehow related, and of the similarity between deep sleep and turiya mentioned.



Much of our thinking and emoting stems from past memories and future imagination, all propelled by unconscious desires within.

The mind is but incessant thoughts and emotions stemming from raag-dvesh or grasping/craving or aversions.

As all vasanas or psychological impressions are extinct in enlightenment, so does the desires it projects, and so does compulsive thinking and emoting. Hence the no-mind or thoughtless awareness of the sage.

There are no incessant thinking and emoting of a compulsive nature to blur and obscure the blissful Self anymore.

In advaita, the Self is distinct from the mind.

I don't agree that the complete blank of deep sleep is a memory. It's actually just a gap in experience. Without looking at a clock when I wake up, or seeing how light it is outside, I wouldn't know how long I'd been asleep.

I'm not sure about the idea that the "non-experience" of deep sleep is closer to turiya, and therefore closer to Atman. I don't think the three states are comparable to the five sheaths in that sense, and you could just look at the three states as a daily cycle.

As for no-mind, I think that "non-grasping mind" describes it well. It would be a quieter mind for sure, since it would be content, and not continually looking for distraction.
So I still don't understand Ramana's reference to "destroying" the mind. Possibly he meant destroying the ego, since he appears to equate mind and ego. Though I recall another quote where he says "pure mind" is Brahman. So it's not clear.
It's tricky, because Ramana developed his own vocabulary to express his realisation, and possibly things have been lost in translation.

 

[Viswa]

It was a general comment, not aimed at you.

Oh. Fine.

But my reply is only specific comment aimed at you, about your general comment. That general comment, even if one preaches or not, what's matter to you/me/anyone?? Let people do whatever they want, why to condemn it?? By condemning what we will succeed?? Do you think one might shut their mouth/preaching by condemning?? Never.. Maybe they will increase their preaching to prove themselves for the opposition made. So, my view is, people get joy by preaching and etc.. You may save one ignorant person by pointing out what they doing at that moment. But what about billions?? Can you save them all by condemning?? Even, when you are gone, the person you saved might also join the preachers. Nothing is fixed here. People seek joy, and they get it from many things including preaching. Shall we let them get joy from any activity they do, by being compassionate to them, and let them preach/do whatever they want, and watch it without praising or condemning??.

A serious person will surely reach you to inquire more, and you may clarify all his doubts and remove all his ignorance. Other than him, it's better to remain silent, thinking as there is no one here to save by condemning one and praising other.

Again, this reply is not general, and a specific one to your general comment.

Also, the inquiries I made in life about all religions and philosophies, everything has an unsolved doubts in their own sayings. Duality, Buddhism, Tao, Greek, etc.. - everything is like describing the elephant by the blind man touching one portion and expressing. Even, Advaita Vedanta couldn't resolve some questions.

But, there is one thing that did clarified all the doubts in a single way. Greg, asked me what non-duality book I read. It's not non-duality but Mandukya Upanishad, and the answer is "AUM".

ONE who understands in full depth about "AUM", for sure all his doubts will be answered, which all the religions and philosophies and schools fails to.

You know, my name is O.K.Viswanath. As a born child, my parents names me and my older brother as "OmViswanath" and "OmMahesh", but due to numerological issue - they eliminated letter 'm' and made the letter 'O' as initial along with my father's first letter 'K'. Kind of an answer I got in my birth itself.

"AUM" has all answers, even for Aupmanyav about "existence as well as non-existence".

Advaita Vedantists touch only "6th sloka" as assume it as "Nirguna Brahman". But "Nirguna Brahman" is not 6th sloka but the 7th sloka, and to clearly understand it and derive answer for all questions, one has to understand about "AUM", about all slokas of Mandukya, and it answers about "Maya" and "GOD" and everything in "AUM".

AUM peace peace peace..

 

[Martin]

Oh. Fine.

But my reply is only specific comment aimed at you, about your general comment. That general comment, even if one preaches or not, what's matter to you/me/anyone?? Let people do whatever they want, why to condemn it?? By condemning what we will succeed?? Do you think one might shut their mouth/preaching by condemning?? Never.. Maybe they will increase their preaching to prove themselves for the opposition made. So, my view is, people get joy by preaching and etc.. You may save one ignorant person by pointing out what they doing at that moment. But what about billions?? Can you save them all by condemning?? Even, when you are gone, the person you saved might also join the preachers. Nothing is fixed here. People seek joy, and they get it from many things including preaching. Shall we let them get joy from any activity they do, by being compassionate to them, and let them preach/do whatever they want, and watch it without praising or condemning??.

A serious person will surely reach you to inquire more, and you may clarify all his doubts and remove all his ignorance. Other than him, it's better to remain silent, thinking as there is no one here to save by condemning one and praising other.

Again, this reply is not general, and a specific one to your general comment.

Also, the inquiries I made in life about all religions and philosophies, everything has an unsolved doubts in their own sayings. Duality, Buddhism, Tao, Greek, etc.. - everything is like describing the elephant by the blind man touching one portion and expressing. Even, Advaita Vedanta couldn't resolve some questions.

But, there is one thing that did clarified all the doubts in a single way. Greg, asked me what non-duality book I read. It's not non-duality but Mandukya Upanishad, and the answer is "AUM".

ONE who understands in full depth about "AUM", for sure all his doubts will be answered, which all the religions and philosophies and schools fails to.

You know, my name is O.K.Viswanath. As a born child, my parents names me and my older brother as "OmViswanath" and "OmMahesh", but due to numerological issue - they eliminated letter 'm' and made the letter 'O' as initial along with my father's first letter 'K'. Kind of an answer I got in my birth itself.

"AUM" has all answers, even for Aupmanyav about "existence as well as non-existence".

Advaita Vedantists touch only "6th sloka" as assume it as "Nirguna Brahman". But "Nirguna Brahman" is not 6th sloka but the 7th sloka, and to clearly understand it and derive answer for all questions, one has to understand about "AUM", about all slokas of Mandukya, and it answers about "Maya" and "GOD" and everything in "AUM".

AUM peace peace peace..

Fair enough. My point was that people getting preachy and superior is not conducive to a good discussion, or to learning new things.

Anyway. I'm interested in your comments about the Mandukya Upanishad, but not sure I understand what you're saying.
In my translation, the sixth sloka refers to prajna, and the seventh sloka refers to turiya/Atman.
So are you saying that Advaitans interpret prajna (deep sleep?) as being Nirguna Brahman?

 

[Viswa]

Fair enough. My point was that people getting preachy and superior is not conducive to a good discussion, or to learning new things.

Yes, it is not at all conducive to good discussion. But, you know that, people who is preachy won't be ready for discussion itself and won't be interested to learn things. Let them be preachy and poke in their nose. We just stand aside from them and watch their enjoyment. That's the highest thing we can do to them by compassion, but not stopping their enjoyment. Right?

Anyway. I'm interested in your comments about the Mandukya Upanishad, but not sure I understand what you're saying.
In my translation, the sixth sloka refers to prajna, and the seventh sloka refers to turiya/Atman.
So are you saying that Advaitans interpret prajna (deep sleep?) as being Nirguna Brahman?

It's very good to know you're interest in this. Let's dive and swim in Mandukya.

Yes. They interpret Prajna as Nirguna Brahman. To say rightly, they take "Chit" as Nirguna Brahman. In my profile pic, the Saguna Brahman is Prajna, and it is the reclining Vishnu in Anantasesha in each bubbles. The Bubbles are the Saguna Brahman/Chit/Pure-Consciousness/Witness-Consciousness. The Prajna, from it everything arises and settles. It is called as Causal Body.

The "Chit" or "Pure Consciousness" or "Bubbles" is like a pond, in which water plays. The "Nirguna Brahman", that is we/me/you, is beyond the bubbles, an endless water/ocean. It is the silence/peace beyond "AUM". Without Bubbles/Appearances/Maya/Saguna Brahman, it cannot be said as 'existent' nor 'non-existent'.

Swami Sarvapriyananda, keeps on saying, "From our own experiences, we can acknowledge witness-consciousness". But, he is wrong. We have only three experiences, waking, dreaming and deep sleep. Silence is beyond experiences, beyond time - and the three states are bound to time. When he says, "It is the witness-consciousness witnessing the waking state", he is indicating only "Vaishvanara" mistaking it as "Nirguna Brahman". Again, when he says, "It is the witness-consciousness witnessing the dreaming state", he is indicating only "Taijasa", but not the witness-consciousness. In deep-sleep, we have no memory. In that 'no memory' experience, he says the 'witness-consciousness' only "Prajna".

In all the above, the "ME" is not at all present. "ME" as the 'Nirguna Brahman', witness through Consciousness/Chit/Pond, all the Mind/Body.

"Prajna" is the outer sheath, or causal body, or "Brahman with Maya" or "Saguna Brahman" or "Siva with Sakthi" or "Bliss". They indicate this "Bliss"/Ananda experienced through "Chit" by "Prajna", as "Sat-Chit-Ananda" - but it is not the "Nirguna Brahman". From that causal body/Bliss, the other four sheaths - the other two states (waking and dreaming) - the psych and physic, comes and goes..

In deep sleep, we have no mind and so we see no things, no memory of it on waking. But, time runs. How did we wake up?? Because the other four sheaths, or mind and senses, wakes up. Why it wakes up?? - It's still a mystery. Some say, "it's a sin". Some say, "it's Karma". Some say, "Mind and senses have life, so it wakes up the individual". Many and Many theories surrounding it, but no answer to it, and it is Maya.

Okay, How come/Why the "Nirguna Brahman" limits itself as "Saguna Brahman"?. It's also a Mystery. there is no reason for that. Some may call it "Play". Some may call it "Brahman wants to experience itself". Some may call it "Never ending process". Some may call it "Ignorance",etc.. And it is Maya.

The Bubbles are the cave in the right heart from where the "I" thought arises, and all other four sheaths are experienced from the "I" thought. The "I" thought is the Bliss. To reside in "I" thought is blissful and is Moksha, the deep-sleep, the "prajna". Prajna is called Consciousness. Some may call this "I" thought as "Krishna Consciousness". Some may call it "Jesus". Some may call it "Ma Durga". Some may call it "Arunachala". Some may call it "Ishvara". Some may call it "Omniscience". Some may call it "Oneness". Some may call it "Allah". All points to this "Prajna" or "Bliss". This Bliss, is also limited, and vanishes when "I" thought, i.e. the Pond/Consciousness disappears, and one gets merged in "ME" without thought beyond time/etc.. Religions point beyond time as Bliss. But, that is not true and it's just a motivation to attain Moksha and remain blissful. Wherever movement, there is time. Wherever time, there is experience. But Me/You/Nirguna Brahman, is beyond time beyond movement beyond experience, and assume itself in three names in three states.

You may try it now. Keep on saying "I-I-I-I-I-I". When you say it, the eyes will shut automatically, you feel bliss and you go to sleep.

In Sleeping state, there is only Bliss sheath. In Dreams, there is three, Bliss-Vijnana-Mano. In waking, there is five, you know. In all three states, we can remain "Blissful" and witness. That is witness-consciousness. That is Sat-Chit-Ananda. It's like "Shiva and Parvati or Vishnu and Laxmi or Brahma and Saraswati or Rudra and Durga" witnessing the whole happening in the Bubbles residing in it. Intelligence acts in Blissful remaining, and Compassion/Love spreads... When one falls away from Bliss, Life comes in Earth and death-life-death-life until desires vanishes, and again one goes to Bliss, and that is called as Moksha, no rebirth. In some Vishnu puranas, Rudra gets fallen away from Bliss due to Ahankara, and Vishnu preaches him. In some Shiva puranas, Vishnu gets fallen away from Bliss due to Ignorance, and Rudra preaches him.

Vishnu and Rudra are the gods of 'demi-gods'. They do their duty. Also, Ma Durga and Laxmi and Yama and etc.. They are like normal people like us in previous Bubbles/Universe, but got into the topmost rank in this Bubble/Universe, and do. Even, Indra and Asuras are also normal people like us, got the second highest rank as 'demi-gods' from their past deeds. They do their duty, and nothing different from them and us, except the Gods remain Blissful always without ignorance but not we. Though we may understand everything, ignorance arises and immediately vanishes when we soon understand things. When no Ignorance arises, it is called as Jivan Mukti. When the gross body itself vanishes/comes to death, it is called as Videha Mukti. For me, I'm not both, but it happens or not I'm not desired/interested, and let pleasure-pain-Bliss, everything is my appearance, nothing to seek to leave other behind. Let whatever happens, happens.

You, when experience these three states, being called in three names "AUM". But, when you go silence/peace, no witnessing/experience, nothing to describe, you go beyond the bubbles and reside in you. That is "atma". That is "Chathurtam". That is to be known.

Peace.

 

[ajay0]

So I still don't understand Ramana's reference to "destroying" the mind. Possibly he meant destroying the ego, since he appears to equate mind and ego. Though I recall another quote where he says "pure mind" is Brahman. So it's not clear. .

Destroying the mind would mean ending the compulsive nature of thinking and emoting which causes duality. In Self-realization there is nondual perception as there is no compulsive thinking and labelling or categorising.

One thinks for practical purposes, and not when needed. Most people cannot stop the thought process which results in duality.

It's tricky, because Ramana developed his own vocabulary to express his realisation, and possibly things have been lost in translation.

If you know the philosophy well, you can also interpret the terminology used correctly.

However the important thing is to come to the state of blissful awareness oneself through sadhana, and not get into intellectual gymnastics and scholarly understanding based on someone else's experiences.

As Swami Sivananda said, " An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of theory'.

It is your own realizations that will swiftly enable you to comprehend or make sense of what you have read. Or else the chances of delusion based on undigested intellectual understanding and speculation is very high.

 

[Viswa]

What does "destruction of Mind" Ramana Maharshi meant?

The above question comes from "Mind". When all thoughts,questions,doubts,etc.. subsides, there comes peace, no thoughts. Even, there is no thought of "Whether Mind destroyed?", because mind is nothing but thoughts in forms of desires/questions/etc..

Ending of all thoughts is what Ramana Maharshi might have meant "destroying" the mind.

Even this post, comes out as a 'thought' in Mind.

One doesn't know "Mind destructed or not" in that Peace, but "Never Mind".

Peace..

 

[The Crimson Universe]

So are you saying that Advaitans interpret prajna (deep sleep?) as being Nirguna Brahman?

As far as i know, Prajna is NOT Nirguna Brahman.

You were correct when you said, Prajna is deep sleep.
In Advaita, the deep sleep state is equated with the subconscious AKA causal body AKA ananda-maya sheath.

In this sheath, all things acquired in the past (dispositions, desires etc.) remain in dormant seed like state.

This causal body (ananda-maya sheath) is the innermost sheath that encapsulates or wraps up the Atman.

Now, here's the interesting part.
The causal body (ananda-maya sheath) is the thinnest or subtlest than all other sheaths and is closest to the Atman, since it wraps up this very Atman.

When the meditating man seeks inward to experience his True Self (Atman), he has to pierce through all the sheaths, one by one, until he reaches the Atman.

During meditation, as people pierces inwards, they reach the final sheath (causal body or ananda-maya). And when that happens they experience a certain bliss and so they often mistake this causal body for Atman/Brahman.

Why do they experience this bliss when its not actually the Atman/Brahman?
Because, as i said earlier, this sheath is very thin or subtlest and since it is closest to the Atman, the original bliss of the Atman permeates through the causal body.
... just like a sponge kept in water absorbs all the liquid, the same way this sheath being closest to the Atman absorbs some of its bliss quality. Due to this reason, many mistake it for Atman/Brahman, when they reach this sheath during meditation.

Long ago, i read an article (sorry don't have the link anymore) where it was mentioned that Shankara rejected prajna/causal body as Atman/Brahman, since it is just a sheath ... It is just maya/appearance/manifestation of the original unmanifested Atman/Brahman.
... In other words, it is just subtle matter and NOT the infinite cosmic spirit Atman/Brahman/Turiya which remains in the background as a witness.

==========

Here's is excerpt from an Advaitic question-answer session regarding Prajna, which you might find interesting.

>>
Question:

Namaste,
What's the difference between turiya and prajna?
In both cases, there is
consciousness without (mental) objects. So why is turiya different from prajna?

Suresh
>> >

Answer:

Dear Suresh,
>>
>> To put the matter succinctly, prAjna is consciousness no doubt (i.e. borrowed consciousness), without (mental) objects, but is endowed with the potential of the (mental) objects. That is, only the manifest objects are not there for prajna to perceive/experience, but
the objects are there in their unmanifest form in the prajna (in seed form).
When waking/dream arise, the manifestation will take place. The prajna is the cause, in seed form, for the manifest world.
>>
On the other hand, the Turiya has no objects even in their seed form. The Turiya is not a 'cause' of the manifest world. Turiya is kArya-kAraNa vilakShaNa. That is, the Turiya transcends the cause-effect duality.
[The prajna is still in that duality]
>>
>> The prAjna is a samsAri (trapped in samsara) but the turiya is nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated).
>>
>> regards
>> subrahmanian.v

[Advaita-l] Diff. between turiya and prajna

 

[The Crimson Universe]

@Martin ... Also you can check out this video of Jason where he speaks about the basics of Advaita ... and also about Ramana Maharshi (whether after enlightenment Ramana's mind was really destroyed or not). Do watch the full video.

Jason is originally from Australia who spent more than 10 years in Asia and is well versed in Advaita, Buddhism, Taoism etc.

 

[Viswa]

Why do they experience this bliss when its not actually the Atman/Brahman?
Because, as i said earlier, this sheath is very thin or subtlest and since it is closest to the Atman, the original bliss of the Atman permeates through the causal body.
... just like a sponge kept in water absorbs all the liquid, the same way this sheath being closest to the Atman absorbs some of its bliss quality. Due to this reason, many mistake it for Atman/Brahman, when they reach this sheath during meditation.

"prAjna is a samsAri (trapped in samsara) but the turiya is nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated)."

Hi Greg. Superb. All the things you said in the reply is the same I view too. Prajna - causal body - unmanifested objects (or to say impressions/subtle awaiting to become gross) - Anandamayakosha, also about Turiya.

But, only in above two points, I have different view.

First, about "prAjna is a samsAri (trapped in samsara) but the turiya is nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated).".
Nope. Prajna is not samsari (or trapped in samsara), but it is the Prajna - "nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated)".
Then, what about Turiya means, it is beyond, No rupa no liberation - beyond everything one knows.

Second, about "the original bliss of the Atman permeates through the causal body."

Original Bliss of Atman?? I don't think so. If you give attribute to Atman as Original Bliss - which is perceived by Anandamayakosha or causal body, then there is "Original Pleasure and Original Sufferings and Original etc." in Atman too - which are perceived through Subtle and Gross body, then where would the sponge of "Subtle and Gross Body and Manomaya and Annamaya Koshas" feels the "Pleasure and sufferings and fear and pride and greed and etc.," if not from water?!!

So, saying Original Bliss to Atman means, there is Original Everything in Atman not just Bliss. So, why to give anything as 'Original' to Atman?

It's beyond Bliss and Pleasure and Sufferings and Fear and Energy and etc., not an original 'particular' kind in it.

Atman appears as Blissful in Anandamaya Kosha, but beyond nothing can be said, and if said any 'thing' (As like Original Bliss), then 'every other' things have to be included choicelessly and cannot be neglected - must be included in the same 'manner' that 'thing' is attributed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I can assume (believe) that the Self is present during deep sleep, but it's only an assumption because I have no awareness at all in deep sleep. It's a complete blank, like being under a general anaesthetic.

You could describe deep sleep as temporary cessation of mind and experience, but wouldn't the mind being "destroyed" result in a permanent absence of experience, and therefore a complete blank? That's the bit I don't understand.

It is very much there. Sleeping makes no difference to Autonomous Nervous system. It works even in sleep. And the memory is under defrag. That is just as necessary for body as rest is.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So are you saying that Advaitans interpret prajna (deep sleep?) as being Nirguna Brahman?

I do not think he is saying that. I have not read his post because it is long. I prefer one-line or 2-line answers.

Prajna is not deep sleep, it is intellect, knowledge, wisdom. Brahman is, as I always say, the brick that make any house, that is substrate of all things in the universe or that is what all things are constituted of.
https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate?search=prajNa&dir=au

 

[The Crimson Universe]

First, about "prAjna is a samsAri (trapped in samsara) but the turiya is nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated).".
Nope. Prajna is not samsari (or trapped in samsara), but it is the Prajna - "nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated)".

If you check my original post where i said prajna is samsari(worldly) and turiya is eternally liberated, well, those weren't actually my words. Those were the words of an Advaitin guru and i simply quoted him from his website. But his statements does make sense to me.

If you (like me) believe Prajna is the causal body, (a mere sheath that's made up of subtle matter or 5 elements), where all the mental imprints of a jiva are stored in dormant state, then how can you say this prajna or causal body is eternally liberated?

Do note, i'm not speaking of the cosmic causal body or cosmic ego ... No ... I'm actually speaking of the individual causal body.

I believe, it is made from matter and so it has an end. I read somewhere long ago (probably on Sivananda's webite, not sure) that upon videha mukti (death after liberation) all sheaths including prajna/causal body along with its imprints are destroyed, and then what remains is the Atman/Brahman alone.
Just like if you peel all the layers of the onion, all that remains is the space around it. The onion with all its layers (the individual with all its sheaths) has become non-existent.
:=)

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Hi Greg. Superb. All the things you said in the reply is the same I view too. Prajna - causal body - unmanifested objects (or to say impressions/subtle awaiting to become gross) - Anandamayakosha, also about Turiya.

But, only in above two points, I have different view.

First, about "prAjna is a samsAri (trapped in samsara) but the turiya is nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated).".
Nope. Prajna is not samsari (or trapped in samsara), but it is the Prajna - "nitya mukta svarUpam (eternally liberated)".
Then, what about Turiya means, it is beyond, No rupa no liberation - beyond everything one knows.

Second, about "the original bliss of the Atman permeates through the causal body."

Original Bliss of Atman?? I don't think so. If you give attribute to Atman as Original Bliss - which is perceived by Anandamayakosha or causal body, then there is "Original Pleasure and Original Sufferings and Original etc." in Atman too - which are perceived through Subtle and Gross body, then where would the sponge of "Subtle and Gross Body and Manomaya and Annamaya Koshas" feels the "Pleasure and sufferings and fear and pride and greed and etc.," if not from water?!!

So, saying Original Bliss to Atman means, there is Original Everything in Atman not just Bliss. So, why to give anything as 'Original' to Atman?

It's beyond Bliss and Pleasure and Sufferings and Fear and Energy and etc., not an original 'particular' kind in it.

Atman appears as Blissful in Anandamaya Kosha, but beyond nothing can be said, and if said any 'thing' (As like Original Bliss), then 'every other' things have to be included choicelessly and cannot be neglected - must be included in the same 'manner' that 'thing' is attributed.

So are you saying Atman is devoid of bliss and that bliss is only the intrinsic quality of anandamaya sheath??
...
And that whoever experiences this blissfull anandamaya sheath in meditation experiences bliss (moksha)??
...
And that one can never actually experience Atman, but one can always realize the 'bliss' of the blissful anandamaya sheath instead??
Is this what you're saying??

 

[Viswa]

So are you saying Atman is devoid of bliss and that bliss is only the intrinsic quality of anandamaya sheath??
...
And that whoever experiences this blissfull anandamaya sheath in meditation experiences bliss (moksha)??
...
And that one can never actually experience Atman, but one can always realize the 'bliss' of the blissful anandamaya sheath instead??
Is this what you're saying??

One is always experiencing Atman. But as "Advaita"- the fourth quarter cannot be experienced, as it is beyond all experiences and "thou art that".

All the experiences in AUM - 3 states, is indeed experiencing Atman. I'm saying is that, there is no "Original Experience" ever. Only relative, whatever it may be, and that relative is itself Atman too, as Unmanifested cannot be experienced and only by Manifestations it can be experienced.

Everything Experienced is Prakriti and not Purusha. Purusha cannot experience itself. Purusha is the experiencer and Prakriti is experienced. Whatever experience is, without these duality - no experience can happen.

Bliss is the Anandamaya sheath, and the first state of combination of Purusha and Prakriti. Both, Purusha and Prakriti is eternal in ONE. But, their interaction as manifestation brings experience. Without their interaction, no experience possible.

I say, experiences are bound to duality (Purusha-experiencer and Prakriti-experienced), whatever the experience maybe (Spiritual, Moksha, Enlightenment, whatever one knows).

Thank you.

 

[Martin]

One is always experiencing Atman. But as "Advaita"- the fourth quarter cannot be experienced, as it is beyond all experiences and "thou art that".

All the experiences in AUM - 3 states, is indeed experiencing Atman. I'm saying is that, there is no "Original Experience" ever. Only relative, whatever it may be, and that relative is itself Atman too, as Unmanifested cannot be experienced and only by Manifestations it can be experienced.

Everything Experienced is Prakriti and not Purusha. Purusha cannot experience itself. Purusha is the experiencer and Prakriti is experienced. Whatever experience is, without these duality - no experience can happen.

Bliss is the Anandamaya sheath, and the first state of combination of Purusha and Prakriti. Both, Purusha and Prakriti is eternal in ONE. But, their interaction as manifestation brings experience. Without their interaction, no experience possible.

I say, experiences are bound to duality (Purusha-experiencer and Prakriti-experienced), whatever the experience maybe (Spiritual, Moksha, Enlightenment, whatever one knows).

Thank you.

Another way of looking at this is to say that the intellect begins identifying with purusha, rather than with prakriti.
"I am prakriti" becomes "I am purusha". So'ham.

 

[Viswa]

If you (like me) believe Prajna is the causal body, (a mere sheath that's made up of subtle matter or 5 elements), where all the mental imprints of a jiva are stored in dormant state, then how can you say this prajna or causal body is eternally liberated?

Liberation, then you have to know about what Liberation is. Liberation is not vanishing of everything. But, not attached in it's presence. Witness-Consciousness witnessing everything but eternally liberated from all objects witnessed. It is Prajna. Everything is present in dormant, also witnessed relatively. But, not attached to it and remain blissfully always. That's what 6th manthra in Mandukya points to, the Lord.

Another way of looking at this is to say that the intellect begins identifying with purusha, rather than with prakriti.
"I am prakriti" becomes "I am purusha". So'ham.

Yes, Identification matters but not experiences. What one identifies to is always one becomes/is. "I AM THAT Sat-Chit-Ananda" contemplated, one becomes Sat-Chit-Ananda and remain blissfully , liberated and never borns again.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I read somewhere long ago (probably on Sivananda's webite, not sure) that upon videha mukti (death after liberation) all sheaths including prajna/causal body along with its imprints are destroyed, and then what remains is the Atman/Brahman alone.
Just like if you peel all the layers of the onion, all that remains is the space around it. The onion with all its layers (the individual with all its sheaths) has become non-existent.

Excellent, Greg. I concur with this. Brahman alone is the 'Shesha' (remainder). My homage to Swami Sivananda.
As I keep on saying, 'Paramarthika' has no bliss, no sorrow.

"I AM THAT Sat-Chit-Ananda" contemplated, one becomes Sat-Chit-Ananda and remain blissfully , liberated and never borns again.

Otherwise also, no one is born again. One only lives once.

 

[Viswa]

Otherwise also, no one is born again. One only lives once.

I don't know, in what notion you point the "one", like same memory/etc.

Let's see whether you say the same after you attain Siddhi powers and Enlightenment.

Because, many scriptures speak about 'desires' in the time of death becomes seed for birth, as it has deep impresseions to be acquired/experienced. So, to find out whether "You Only Live Once", let one speak about it after Siddhi powers and Enlightenment. Let one become Buddha or Shirdi Sai or like many sages, and then accept/reject about re-incarnations.

 

[Viswa]

Do note, i'm not speaking of the cosmic causal body or cosmic ego ... No ... I'm actually speaking of the individual causal body.

I believe, it is made from matter and so it has an end. I read somewhere long ago (probably on Sivananda's webite, not sure) that upon videha mukti (death after liberation) all sheaths including prajna/causal body along with its imprints are destroyed, and then what remains is the Atman/Brahman alone.
Just like if you peel all the layers of the onion, all that remains is the space around it. The onion with all its layers (the individual with all its sheaths) has become non-existent.
:=)

Individual causal body? Is there any such individual cause? Could you elaborate on this?

It's not emptiness remains Greg. We can't know what remains then. All Knowledge about, ends in this peeling. Brahman can be explained only in notion to Onion, but after peeled all Onion, it cannot be said as "Existence with Emptiness" or "Non-Existence", don't actually know what it is, don't actually know whether it is present or not when all 5 sheaths removed, and you are that, and that's what said in 7th Manthra of Mandukya too.

See, whatever we speak cannot describe what happens after Videha mukti, and people who describe that "Maya will vanish, 5 sheaths will vanish" - it's just a belief/thought and one actually don't know. Does a Videha Mukti spoke about "Videha Mukti"? No. Only the Jivan Muktas spoke about it, and even in Upanishads they don't actually speak what happens after Videha Mukti.

Some Moksha speak about, experiencing Bliss after Videha mukti remaining with Lord. But, I speak about Kaivalya, what happens to one, who doesn't desire Bliss and doesn't desire liberation and doesn't desire God, in Videha Mukti.

It's unknowable. And also it's of no importance. Whatever happens let it be and if one wants to know it - let one find out it after Videha Mukti itself and not from words of others, even if it is from Lord/Guru.