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Did the dogmatic Jesus have an extreme ego?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Imagine what would happen if someone came around now saying the same thing.

Kind of put things in perspective.
But then imagine if that person garnered a great following, even after his death, and they become the dominant religion of an empire, and that person became written into sacred texts that they used for spiritual guidance and truth. Now all of a sudden, that shifts the perspective away from just some dude saying some stuff, to an expression of divine significance.

So when you read that passage in that context, that kind of puts things in a different perspective. It no longer reads as just some dude with a flaming ego, but instead it becomes the expression of spiritual meaning beyond the ego.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?


"The problem with some contemporary Christianity is the way in which it deifies the family and then treats it as an exclusive unit at the expense of the other social bonds. One of the strongest strands that I get from Jesus's ethical teachings is that blood ties are not as important as the family you create."

(Baggini, Julian. The Godless Gospel (pp. 108-109))


"You are all brothers. Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven"

(Matthew 23:8-9)


It is understandable why someone would construe the above passage in the fashion that you have Daniel, at least on a surface reading.

But I think one must balance this, with the recognition that Jesus did not see himself as a recipient of fealty or servitude but rather as the self-denying servant of other people: "For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45) and put this into practise by bowing down to wash his disciples dirty feet: "After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him" (John 13:5).

There's no denying, the wording itself makes it one of the "hard" sayings attributed to Jesus in the synoptic tradition, which you need to take a close and penetrating second look at. It's intended for its shock value, as a kind of clarion call for followers of Christ to question their sense of priority and what they value the most in life.

However, it does not evidence a pathological egoism in the person of Jesus to me, like you would find in a sociopathic cult-leader seeking others' unique devotion and adoration for the purposes of emotional abuse and personal self-gratification (i.e. making a person see their family and loved ones as "bad" so as to remove those pillars of social support and thus make them wholly dependant upon oneself, or rather gaslighting).

And these are some of the reasons why.

Firstly, the ancient 'model' of family was no cuddly, modern American TV 'mom and dad'. As the historian Professor Larry Siedentop explained in his 2014 book entitled Inventing the Individual:


The [Roman] paterfamilias (father) was originally both the family’s magistrate and high priest, with his wife, daughters and younger sons having a radically inferior status.

Inequality remained the hallmark of the ancient patriarchal family. “Society” was understood as an association of families rather than of individuals.

The paterfamilias exercised authority of life and death over the members of his household. The Twelve Tables, the constitution of Rome for example, included a law that said disabled or deformed children should be put to death by their own fathers, usually by stoning: "A father shall immediately put to death a son recently born, who is a monster [or 'seriously deformed'], or has a form different from that of members of the human race." (Law III).

Ancient fathers “represented patriarchy, the old society in which the man alone ruled and decided. In the new family of Jesus into which the disciples are to grow there can no longer be anyone who dominates others.” (Gerhard Lohfink 2014). In their analysis of Mark 10:29–30, Osiek and Balch conclude, “The old family included a patriarchal father; the new one does not, since God is the only Father.

What Jesus is actually doing here is asking people to abandon 'domineering', closed and inegalitarian family structures to radically 'extend' and subvert this traditional definition, so as to see God as one's Father and every human being who strives to do his will (i.e. live in a life in accordance with the values of the Sermon on the Mount) as one's equal 'brother/sister'.

Its radically 'inclusive', not cultish exclusive - as evidenced by the sayings recorded earlier to: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:44-45).

He expressed this bluntly: "For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother" (Mark 3:35).

If you are a tribalistic person who loves only 'your own', then you are going to have an exceedingly hard time adjusting to the radically pro-social ethics of Jesus, which are premised on non-differentiating and non-exclusive 'love' for every human. It is about enlarging the circle of our kinship bonds beyond mere 'blood ties' and having the ability, like the Good Samaritan in the parable who refused to pass by a wounded man left for dead but bandaged and cared for his wounds, to have a sense of filial obligation of care to everyone you can muster it for.

To develop such a mindset in his followers, Jesus had to be 'bold' about breaking down some received wisdoms that were deeply ingrained in a patriarchal society where one's blood family under the life-and-death sovereignty of a paterfamilias (the 'Daddy', like in the Godfather) was the fundamental cell of society.

The focus on himself as the divinely appointed agent of this social revolution, the Son of Man (literally in Greek 'the human one', the person who represents what it means to live a most fully human life), is comprehensible once you realize that Jesus called himself the 'Son of Man' not to receive glory in his own person, but because he saw himself as standing for and representing every oppressed, needy person.

In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, he said:


"I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’

“Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
" (Matthew 25:31-64).

At first, he talks in the first person, seemingly referring to himself - "I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was a stranger, I was naked" - and his disciples initially understand that literally and are flummoxed, "when where you hungry, thirsty, a migrant, or naked and we showed you compassion?" And the answer Jesus gives is that they did this to him, whenever they tended to the needs of the most vulnerable persons in society - the poor, the infirm, the imprisoned - whom Jesus saw himself as the representative of.

He is the Son of Man and thus the self-declared spokesperson for suffering humanity (that's how he conceives of himself). This perception of his role in life was preserved by the church in an extra-canonical saying found in a third-century code of ecclesiastical law:


The Epistula Apostolorum: Epistle of the Apostles


And Jesus said unto us: Verily I say unto you, that I have obtained the whole power of my Father, that I may bring back into light them that dwell in darkness...and that I may loose them that are in fetters.

I am the hope for them that are in despair, the helper of them that are helpless, the treasure of the poor, the doctor of the sick, and the resurrection of the dead.


Is this self-confident? Absolutely, but no one ever got an essential message conveyed to others by being a bashful wallflower, in my opinion.
 
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Shantanu

Well-Known Member
(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?
From what you have read about Jesus, was he very proactive in what he preached, or was he truth accommodating but still incurred the wrath of the Roman State authorities?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
This article by a group of social psychologists, explains the kind of pro-social 'prestige leadership-style' (based on reverence and exemplarism) exhibited by Jesus - and it's fundamental difference from a psychopathic or cultish personality type (based on fear):


By Reverence, Not Fear: Prestige, Religion, and Autonomic Regulation in the Evolution of Cooperation


"Awe, unlike fear, does not make us shrink from the awe-inspiring object, but, on the contrary, draws us near to it.

(Heschel, 1976)

Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

-1 Corinthians 11:1:​


Recent evolutionary theories of religions emphasize their function as mechanisms for increasing prosociality...

Here, we argue that this mammalian physiology supports an alternative hierarchical system unique to humans: prestige. In contrast to dominance, which involves aversion, fear and shame, prestige hierarchies are characterized by physical proximity and eye-contact, as well as emotions like admiration and respect for leaders...

Rather than using fear-inducing threats to coerce others, prestigious figures gain influence simply by being good at something and valued by others for it; moreover, prestigious individuals show generosity and benevolence toward low status individuals (Radcliffe-Brown, 1964; Henrich and Gil-White, 2001; Henrich, 2016). In exchange for their expertise and generosity, prestigious figures receive “freely conferred deference” from low-status individuals (Henrich and Gil-White, 2001). This means that leaders don’t command deference by force, and that followers don’t show deference simply to reduce the threat from the leader; rather, followers willingly defer to the leader...

A cultural evolutionary reading of the Biblical texts portrays Jesus receiving deference from his followers in exchange for his fitness-relevant expertise in the domain of social norms (e.g., the behaviors required to live a moral life, how to navigate life’s challenges); the added expertise on how to overcome morbidity and obtain eternal life likely made him even more sought after.

While all of the world’s major religions and their leaders explicitly teach about almsgiving, charity, and generosity, we focus on here on early Christianity as an example of prosocial behavior emerging from a prestige hierarchy. In the New Testament, Jesus is portrayed as having a group of dedicated followers (i.e., the disciples) who follow him closely and receive direct teachings from him. In artwork depicting Jesus delivering the Sermon on the Mount – a moralistic message and guide for living, including the commandment to love one’s neighbors and enemies as well as give to the needy – he is portrayed as sitting or standing only slightly above his disciples and the crowd, with an open body posture of both arms extended to his sides or one had gently raised. These gestures fit with description of prestige displays, which are less expansive than dominance displays (Henrich, 2016).

New Testament texts describing the dynamics between Jesus and the disciples also map onto ethnographic and psychological descriptions of prestige dynamics, including the leader-follower dynamics of “Big Men” societies (Henrich et al., 2015), where highly skilled individuals command respect and exert influence over a group of followers. Like many other leaders, the character of Jesus portrayed in the New Testament appears to be a charismatic and highly skilled orator who had the purported power to perform miracles (i.e., heal the sick, feed the masses), which were received as acts of generosity.

A closer look at the rapid rise of Christianity in its first five centuries reveals how Jesus himself as well as the disciples who went on to preach his gospel (i.e., Paul) were successful not only in accumulating followers on his behalf and advocating for prosociality, but also in promoting prosocial behaviors amongst believers, which in turn further drove the growth of the fledgling religion. In a 260-year period, Christianity rapidly expanded from an obscure Messianic cult movement in the far edge of the Eastern Roman empire to an estimated size of 5–7.5 million members (Stark, 1996). Sociologist Rodney Stark attributes the success of Christianity to several key factors, including the highly prosocial response of Christians to two severe plagues that ravaged the empire between the 1st–5th centuries AD.
"​
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Jesus was not dogmatic. People who wrote this were. Jesus was a Master.
From what I read in the Bible that I had years ago, I seem to recall that Jesus was saying that we should submit to oppression and preached tolerance towards them as well as loving all our Neighbours, do you think that this is something that even momentarily makes one uneasy, or is it truly an expression of the eternal reality, the kind of way in which a Almighty God would like us to conduct ourselves even in this day and age. Personnally, as a Hindu Vishista Advaitist, I believe that what one should seek to do is to navigate one's path through the jungle of Nature, and not step on any thorns in one's path, just sidestep them knowing and realising that they are there to persecute you for being of a religious bent of mind. I would never go outside the house to preach, to be an activist for whatever mission that one seeks as being justified for we Vishista Advaitist are totally non-judgemental on any part of Creation and even on the Creator that we whole-heartedly believe in and realise that we are human beings, not Sons of God, but God is there for us if we stick to our raison d'etre of harmonising within Creation and contributing to Creation in the most symbiotic manner possible.

Is this outlook dogmatic? what was Jesus a Master of, in other words that you state here?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
The truth is more important than tribalism.


friendship is important any relationship. who wants an abusive, husband, wife, mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, cousin, niece, nephew, et al.


do not be yoked with an unfriendly, angry soul.
I have lived through to 64 years of age and I have never ever been able to form a sustainable friendship with anyone. That is the truth. When a person knows that others are less inclined to talk to a person who has a different ideas and is theistic in substance, they cannot understand that and shun you for what you are saying. But truth has a way of surfacing just like a piece of wood in a bucket of water.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?
Cuts to the heart of every issue. It deals with your and my ego.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I think that you have to carefully examine which of those sayings really goes back to the historical Jesus. Most of it is the product of the imagination of aMatthew.
In tantric or mystic discipleship however the love for the Guru is central because the Guru is one with God.
So love for family members or spouses and friends is subordinate to the love for the Guru.
If your love for the Guru is not that important to you, then you cannot be the disciple because your more worldy love will tear you away from Him sooner or later.

God has no ego, He wants only your liberation from all bondages.
In Vishista Advaita we distance ourselves from God, we only relate to a Supreme Entity by raising our minds in elevating it above our bodies desires, wants, wishes, missions, aims, objectives, schemes, tactics, the need for karma, or even dharma (duties and righteous actions) as we navigate the complexities of Nature to chart towards our pre-desitny that we believe in as being preordained and preorchestrated in the development of the universe. In that faith, we do not need any gurus, let alone a guru who is at one with God. We believe that God in His magnaminity has left humans and all life forms the freewill to go about living in the best way that they see fit. When a person experiences mental disorders, like depression, paranoid schizophrenia and persistent delusions, anxieties, ups and downs of mood, instead of being cool, calm and collected at all time, he or she is suffering from ignorance. Going to a guru in such a situation may excerbate the problems rather than solving them. It all has to be solved by oneself alone. And this is done from studies of the mind that one possesses and the environment into which it needs to accommodate the body in for peace of mind, and material and spiritual liberation.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
But then imagine if that person garnered a great following, even after his death, and they become the dominant religion of an empire, and that person became written into sacred texts that they used for spiritual guidance and truth. Now all of a sudden, that shifts the perspective away from just some dude saying some stuff, to an expression of divine significance.

So when you read that passage in that context, that kind of puts things in a different perspective. It no longer reads as just some dude with a flaming ego, but instead it becomes the expression of spiritual meaning beyond the ego.
Nobody who acts like that is going to become a dominant religion in an empire.

It's going to be a cult following at best unless someone with political clout dictates it in a way that makes it something past that.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?
I believe the Bible to be inerrant, and I also believe Jesus is a good guy.

Overcoming dated and wrong traditions always implies fighting - even in the families. Who doesn't know this from own experience, I'm asking myself?
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?

I think you have to look at this in the context of the time. Jesus was a Jew, and he was advocating following a version of Judaism that was counter to that accepted at the time. Of course this would cause problems within families.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?

I think you've misinterpreted that passage. To me, the passage is about truth vs illusion. The truth is that God dwells in all of us. From that perspective, Jesus is saying that being attached (loving) the superficial personality, a product of maya, illusion, we see rather than the Divine Essence in all has a wrong angle of vision.

This is not difference in essence from the Buddha renouncing his family to search for Enlightenment.

As far as the sword statement goes, look at the wars including those separating members of a family we've seen since his time. I'd call that a true prophecy.

All of this is in my opinion predicated on assuming that passage is accurate.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I have lived through to 64 years of age and I have never ever been able to form a sustainable friendship with anyone. That is the truth. When a person knows that others are less inclined to talk to a person who has a different ideas and is theistic in substance, they cannot understand that and shun you for what you are saying. But truth has a way of surfacing just like a piece of wood in a bucket of water.
welcome to RF


i laughted when i realized the joke was on me. then i cried.


 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?

I think they are simply truth. The teachings Jesus preached cause conflict. And if person loves more his family or earthly things, it is not possible to go and follow him. But, Jesus told also that we should love even our enemies.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

Which I think means we should not do anything evil to others. But, it is not evil to remain in truth and be loyal to God.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?
It's part of Jesus' dislike for his family. He never mentions his family or in particular his mother without vituperation.

Since this is mentioned in all four gospels, and since it's not a flattering look for a preacher of Love, it may be that this was indeed a trait of an historical Jesus, one of the very few things we know about Jesus as a human,

Or it may simply be that such tough talk was considered admirable by those writers.

Mark 3
31 And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you.” 33 And he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Mark 6
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching.

Matthew 10
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Luke 11
27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

John 2
3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
The only exception is John 19:26 where Jesus on the cross asks the Beloved Disciple to look after his mother.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
It's part of Jesus' dislike for his family. He never mentions his family or in particular his mother without vituperation.

The gospel anecdotes involving his nuclear family are striking for the animosity evident in them, and so the criterion of embarrassment does indeed come in here.

His teachings on the ancient family are much less problematic in and of themselves, inasmuch as they cohere with his ethic of non-discriminating love beyond exclusive boundaries (i.e. not loving just those who love you and associating brotherhood/sisterhood not with blood but with being reborn in spirit of God) and family clans/tribes are inherently exclusive social groups.

However in a culture like ancient Israel, where the Torah literally defined that a person who insulted or disobeyed their parents was deserving of death, and in Roman civilization where the paterfamilias exercises sovereignty over his household, Jesus's behaviour was risque in the extreme.

It wouldn't have been something that any writer of that time, in my judgment, could have reasonably believed would've been a "good look" - that your cult's founder had rancid relations with his nearest and dearest.

So, I do tend to think that we have here a historical nugget, as the majority of scholars believe too.
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?
This is just the tip of the iceberg. The little brat was a brat from the beginning, acting like running away and talking to rabbis was okay because God said so. God also said disrespectful brats could be stoned to death. :)

That's not counting the time he said we'd always have the poor and that's why he should have his oil massage from some hot chick.
 
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