Did the dogmatic Jesus have an extreme ego?

[blü 2]

The gospel anecdotes involving his nuclear family are striking for the animosity evident in them, and so the criterion of embarrassment does indeed come in here.

His teachings on the ancient family are much less problematic in and of themselves, inasmuch as they cohere with his ethic of non-discriminating love beyond exclusive boundaries (i.e. not loving just those who love you and associating brotherhood/sisterhood not with blood but with being reborn in spirit of God) and family clans/tribes are inherently exclusive social groups.

However in a culture like ancient Israel, where the Torah literally defined that a person who insulted or disobeyed their parents was deserving of death, and in Roman civilization where the paterfamilias exercises sovereignty over his household, Jesus's behaviour was risque in the extreme.

It wouldn't have been something that any writer of that time, in my judgment, could have reasonably believed would've been a "good look" - that your cult's founder had rancid relations with his nearest and dearest.

So, I do tend to think that we have here a historical nugget, as the majority of scholars believe too.

Indeed the criterion of embarrassment.

And indeed it connects to the Torah's death penalty for disrespecting parents. which as I understand it had by then not be enforced for centuries, but which carried the opprobrium you mention.

Joseph is not mentioned by Paul or the authors of Mark or John, and his use in Matthew and Luke is rich in "fulfillment of prophecy" storytelling, which doesn't much dilute the general implication that Mary's household was pictured as having no husband figure (isn't Pantera's grave said to have been found in Germany?). If that's historical, it raises long-discussed views of Jesus' motives.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What Jesus is actually doing here is asking people to abandon 'domineering', closed and inegalitarian family structures to radically 'extend' and subvert this traditional definition, so as to see God as one's Father and every human being who strives to do his will (i.e. live in a life in accordance with the values of the Sermon on the Mount) as one's equal 'brother/sister'.

Its radically 'inclusive', not cultish exclusive - as evidenced by the sayings recorded earlier to: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:44-45).

A. Jesus doesn't like women as equals enough to help do the dishes.
B. He doesn't love HIS enemies, such as Satan.

In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats

Where are the sheep and the goats in your quote? And besides, why hate on goats? They are ADORABLE!

A closer look at the rapid rise of Christianity in its first five centuries reveals how Jesus himself as well as the disciples who went on to preach his gospel (i.e., Paul) were successful not only in accumulating followers on his behalf and advocating for prosociality, but also in promoting prosocial behaviors amongst believers, which in turn further drove the growth of the fledgling religion. In a 260-year period, Christianity rapidly expanded from an obscure Messianic cult movement in the far edge of the Eastern Roman empire to an estimated size of 5–7.5 million members (Stark, 1996). Sociologist Rodney Stark attributes the success of Christianity to several key factors, including the highly prosocial response of Christians to two severe plagues that ravaged the empire between the 1st–5th centuries AD."

And yet there were European colonists who willingly joined Native American groups because those heathens were more "Christian" than the Europeans were. Funny how a continent can be filled with people who didn't know Jesus and yet acted more like the stereotype of Jesus than Jesus' followers (and Jesus himself, honestly).

I have lived through to 64 years of age and I have never ever been able to form a sustainable friendship with anyone. That is the truth. When a person knows that others are less inclined to talk to a person who has a different ideas and is theistic in substance, they cannot understand that and shun you for what you are saying. But truth has a way of surfacing just like a piece of wood in a bucket of water.

Well, I welcome you. I come from Christianity but find that Dharmic religions, while still not perfect, seem to have much more than the Abrahamics. I mean, Hinduism says the universe is like a gazillion years old (I kid) while the bible has it as a few thousand at best. There are no Hebrew doctors in the bible. The wisest king they had felt the need to outsource the building of a rectangular building that didn't even have cool stuff like vending machines and automatons and automatic doors.

My literal Hero

The only exception is John 19:26 where Jesus on the cross asks the Beloved Disciple to look after his mother.

AND won't even call her 'mother'. He just always calls her "woman". Jerk. I don't like my family either but I can go around acknowledging they are my parents.

If dishonoring his family is a sin punishable by death, how the hell did he even make it to puberty?

 

[stvdv]

Where are the sheep and the goats in your quote? And besides, why hate on goats? They are ADORABLE!

Beautiful these goats, they are hilarious. So much joy in life.

 

[Clara Tea]

(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?

When Christ has his 2nd coming, he will come with a tongue like a sword. Some thought that the psychics of God were harsh for suggesting that President W. Bush not attack Iraq (just as Saint John the divine wrote centuries ago when he wrote the Revelation chapter of the bible).

The sword tongue is going to yell at us for straying from God's words. He will yell at us for rejecting universal health care (Obamacare). He will yell at us for having so many homeless people. He will yell at the churches for catering to the rich and not housing the homeless and feeding the poor (too little is done).

It isn't about Christ's ego, it is about fulfilling God's wishes.

 

[InChrist]

(Matthew 10):
'34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'

In my opinion this passage shows the extreme ego of Jesus, in that He cares more about peoples love of His self than He does about family unity.

What do you think about this passage?

I think it reveals the reality that it’s important to have one’s priorities in order. Jesus is God our Creator and sole Source of existence , so one’s relationship with God must come first. When that is in place all other relationships flow out of God’s love and go more smoothly and selflessly.

 

[Thanda]

but because he saw himself as standing for and representing every oppressed, needy person.

I agree with this with one caveat - every spiritually oppressed and needy person. Jesus was not a socialist.

 

[Shantanu]

Well, I welcome you. I come from Christianity but find that Dharmic religions, while still not perfect, seem to have much more than the Abrahamics. I mean, Hinduism says the universe is like a gazillion years old (I kid) while the bible has it as a few thousand at best. There are no Hebrew doctors in the bible. The wisest king they had felt the need to outsource the building of a rectangular building that didn't even have cool stuff like vending machines and automatons and automatic doors.

Thank you for welcoming me. I loved being in Religious Forums for some years, then I took an enforced break to experience life a bit more. Hopefully I am a bit more wiser now.

I see that there is only one religion and all religions are dharmic in various manifestations. Christianity in my perspective too is dharmic in that there are dos and donts that give one the mental structure from which to conduct one's actions.

When discussing Vishista Advaita, we are not talking with the focus on Advaita but with focus on Creation, whether that is symbolically a few thousand years or billions of years. There is no need for arguing on the details. The scientists tell us one thing, we have our own philosophical interpretations that suit us to keep our minds steady in contemplation. I would therefore not quibble about the science of how old the universe is. Let the scientists argue about it among themselves. For me the important thing is the lessons of the Bible, which are just as Hindu in the Vishista Advaita format (if a invading army asks you to serve them, carry their bags as well in acquiescence, love they enemies in other words, love being the key word). So in what I practice it takes Creation as being what we celebrate and we do not like Christians do anything to harm any part of Creation. Like Jehovah Witnesses do not accept blood transfusions and would rather die, we do not believe in vaccinations against the coronarvirus not wishing to harm even a virus entering our bodies as part of Creation (unless the State that we live under directs is to do so, and we also take our enforced anti-psychotic anti-depressant and mood-stabilising medications in that light).

We are automatons going through the motions of living believing that we have truth to guide us and that truth is the most important part of our well-being, coming as we do believe from a Supreme Entity that we all call God for want of a term, but in practice we relate it to the Higher Self as Om, the source of everything. This is the digression from Christianity that makes us a Dharmic religion per se.

Nice to be acquainted with you.

 

[Thanda]

critique of Him is a unforgivable sin

You are welcome to critique him- what this will accomplish though is anyone's guess. One might as well critique the Sun

 

[Thanda]

To be fair, those who didn't like him thought they WERE being loyal to God by dismissing him.

And killing him

 

[Brian2]

It's part of Jesus' dislike for his family. He never mentions his family or in particular his mother without vituperation.

Since this is mentioned in all four gospels, and since it's not a flattering look for a preacher of Love, it may be that this was indeed a trait of an historical Jesus, one of the very few things we know about Jesus as a human,

Or it may simply be that such tough talk was considered admirable by those writers.

Mark 3
31 And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you.” 33 And he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Mark 6
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching.

Matthew 10
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Luke 11
27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

John 2
3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
​

The only exception is John 19:26 where Jesus on the cross asks the Beloved Disciple to look after his mother.

Vituperation, a new word for me. But I see nothing in the quotes you gave to suggest that.

 

[Brian2]

Except his in Christianity where worship of God is compulsory and critique of Him is a unforgivable sin. Jesus also present himself as the sole and only path to truth and that one's loyalty to him must be above any others (the passage referenced in the OP). You know what people say about ''red flags and dangerous cults''. He hits all of them in these passages.

Worship was an alien concept to me once and still is to an extent.
Critique of God is not unforgivable and provides God with an opportunity to teach us.
It's good to be aware of the possibility of being in a cult. People can use Jesus to make a cult, which is not devotion to Jesus but devotion to those people. Jesus did not say He was the only path to truth, but that He is the truth. If what He said is true, can we be in a cult if devoted to Him alone?

 

[blü 2]

Vituperation, a new word for me. But I see nothing in the quotes you gave to suggest that.

Then I can only suggest you read them again. Beyond that I can't help you.

 

[Shantanu]

From worship comes knowledge, from kowledge one is elevated to truth.

 

[epronovost]

If what He said is true, can we be in a cult if devoted to Him alone?

Not really in my opinion, but the same could be said if any other cult or sect. If Jim Johns was right was drinkin the kool aid a goof idea? Probably. Of course he wasn't. As for Jesus, I believe we are in the same situation.

 

[Thanda]

It's part of Jesus' dislike for his family. He never mentions his family or in particular his mother without vituperation.

Since this is mentioned in all four gospels, and since it's not a flattering look for a preacher of Love, it may be that this was indeed a trait of an historical Jesus, one of the very few things we know about Jesus as a human,

Or it may simply be that such tough talk was considered admirable by those writers.

Mark 3
31 And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you.” 33 And he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Mark 6
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching.

Matthew 10
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Luke 11
27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

John 2
3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
​

The only exception is John 19:26 where Jesus on the cross asks the Beloved Disciple to look after his mother.

I will defend Jesus treatment of his Mother (and Father) as I have done before.

Most parents in most cultures feel that they have a right to direct the lives of their children. While this is obviously largely true while the child is a minor, it becomes a problem once the child reaches adulthood.

So let's start with the first incident recorded in Luke 2:

48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.​

This is going to be a recurring theme throught Jesus life - he is going to be about his Father's (God's) business. God is going to direct when and where he must go. He will not serve two masters - God will always take priority.

Note also that the age of twelve is the age at which a child becomes an adult in Jewish culture. So this is the beginning of Jesus taking control/charge of his life. He is asserting to his parents that the time of being at their beck and call is coming to an end - he has a mission to fulfill.

Next the famous Wedding (some say it was Jesus own wedding but we'll leave those conspiracies aside for now) in John 2:

1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.​

What's happening here? Jesus is invited to a wedding celebration. Wine is consumed until it runs out. When it runs out Mary decides to tell Jesus

The problem is, Jesus didn't bring the wine. So why is Mary telling Jesus that the wine is finished? What does she think he's supposed to do about it? A miracle of course - she expects him to use his power to perform a miracle to create the wine.

Note also her tone - there is no please. Just "Jesus, there is no wine - do something.". So Jesus sees an opportunity to remind her again that he is not at her beck and call to use the power of His father as she sees fit. "Woman, what have I to do with you? My time (to reveal myself?) has not yet come".

These and perhaps other exchanges Jesus had with his mother were important. You are accountable for your own life to fulfill your purpose. You cannot allow others, no matter their positions in your life or their good intentions to let your stray from your path.

Disabusing parent of the notion that they can control your actions is something most people struggle with throughout their lives. Jesus began early, and was consistent in helping his mother understand his indepence - and his total submission and committment to God.

 

[Brian2]

Not really in my opinion, but the same could be said if any other cult or sect. If Jim Johns was right was drinkin the kool aid a goof idea? Probably. Of course he wasn't. As for Jesus, I believe we are in the same situation.

At least you have a bit of an idea what you are getting into with Jesus. It should be taught from the start that Jesus wants us to give all of ourselves to Him.
The cults that come from that usually involve believing and giving all of ourselves to a person or group of people.
But yes, it is a matter of what you believe and where you want to place your trust.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I think you've misinterpreted that passage. To me, the passage is about truth vs illusion.

If so, I don't see how a metaphor about severe anti-social behavior is at all useful . In modern times as well, regarding progress with science or philosophy , we seem find truth mostly in the interstices between viewpoints. Individuals with a variety of abilities and viewpoints come together to work together on things, because none of them has the sole truth. Humans make progress together, and build on things established by lineages, familial and otherwise.

As far as the sword statement goes, look at the wars including those separating members of a family we've seen since his time. I'd call that a true prophecy.

I looked up the greek word there. Even worse than a sword, it seems to mean dagger or short sword - weapons of deceit as well as war

 

[amorphous_constellation]

From a spiritual perspective Jesus appears to be advocating for principle above subjective emotions and connections. Truth over all (Remember he says "I am the way the truth and the life") . So for example if a child grows up in a communist home (and society) and decides that he doesn't agree with the principles of communism it is likely that he will be set at odds with their parents, brothers, sisters, and much of the community. To stay true to their path, they must love the principle more than they love these connections. They must love their the principle more than they love peace.

How can he come to bring a sword , if a sword was already here the whole time? Moreover , abel's righteous did not at all stem from the idea that he was at variance with cain. It was because the man minded his own business, and didn't think about how to conflict with anyone, but just did what his god wanted.

 

[Thanda]

How can he come to bring a sword , if a sword was already here the whole time? Moreover , abel's righteous did not at stem from the idea that he was at variance with cain. It was because the man minded his own business, and didn't think about how to conflict with anyone, but just did what his god wanted.

He came to bring a sword between family members.

No one is saying quarelling with others is a sign of righteousness. Only that following a path that is against the norm will likely bring you in conflict with others.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What Jesus is actually doing here is asking people to abandon 'domineering', closed and inegalitarian family structures to radically 'extend' and subvert this traditional definition, so as to see God as one's Father and every human being who strives to do his will (i.e. live in a life in accordance with the values of the Sermon on the Mount) as one's equal 'brother/sister'.

The only way that would really occur in society, is everyone was made to be up for adoption once they were born, or if we became polygamous to the point where no one knew who was the parent of who. And when in the last 2000 years has any Christian culture ever decided that family isn't relevant in life? In whatever case, we have no idea what would happen. I would argue though , that human progress does seem to benefit from the concept of parental nurture in the right places. How can we help each other, if even family is in conflict ? How is a person to become fully socialized, rational, and functional, if the family is put into disarray ? Surely you can see that the effective production of help, depends on someone standing on stable ground in the first place.