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Did you know Jesus is considered as a different god according to scripture?

Betho_br

Active Member
I'll repeat here the opinion of Catholic scholars, which is also my own:

1) The doctrine of Unity is biblical, as it is present in the Old Testament, the New Testament, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

2) The "Doctrine of the Trinity" is a philosophical development of the Doctrine of Unity.

3) All the verses of the New Testament have been extensively reviewed, and through a fair and impartial interpretation, they do not explicitly prove or demonstrate the doctrine of the Trinity.

4) The Doctrine of the Trinity is something extremely specific to the Christian Catholic Assembly and is only relevant to it; anyone venturing outside this philosophical magisterium is destined to fail in proving it.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The "correct" definition of the Trinity:

(a) God is the One who is, at the same time, Three Persons. The word "Persons" does not mean what we usually think it means. See point "e."

(b) That means a nature, essence, or being that is essentially the Father.

(c) God and His nature are synonymous.

(d) Unity is not generic based on similarity but numerical based on sameness.

(e) "Three persons" do not mean "persons" in the way we normally understand the word, but rather three expressions, extensions, manifestations, or modes, otherwise called hypostases in theology.

(f) The Person of the Son proceeds from the Father by an eternal generation, without an end process. This is comparable to the rays of the sun, which never separate from the sun itself.

(g) The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son by a mediate procession.

(h) The Three Persons are truly distinct from each other by virtue of the processes of filiation and spiration. However, this does not make them separate entities with independent consciousness.

(i) The Father does not beget or proceed from anyone, as He is the Source from which everything else flows.

(j) Although the Son and the Spirit proceed from the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are coeternal and equal to the Father. (Note: these "co-words" are code terms for the Trinity.)

(k) The theological term that explains the Trinity is consubstantiality (homoousios), which means that more than one person inhabits the same substance without division or separation.
What you did was MODIFY the trinity belief in the same way ALL TRINITARIANS modify THEIR belief as and when they are faced with the truth that trinity is a false belief.

I have seen so many versions of ‘What REAL TRINITY’ means that it is absolutely clear that NO ONE has a definitive version SINCE TRINITY IS A FLUX BELIEF bending itself according to what trinity needs to defend itself against.

As each trinity SCAM is uncovered trinity devises another scam to cover the previous one.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
What you did was MODIFY the trinity belief in the same way ALL TRINITARIANS modify THEIR belief as and when they are faced with the truth that trinity is a false belief.

I have seen so many versions of ‘What REAL TRINITY’ means that it is absolutely clear that NO ONE has a definitive version SINCE TRINITY IS A FLUX BELIEF bending itself according to what trinity needs to defend itself against.

As each trinity SCAM is uncovered trinity devises another scam to cover the previous one.

Did you observe the adverse Trinitarian complexities that arose with the interpretation over time of Luther's legacy? Contrary to Luther's possible intentions, his influence ended up contributing to the emergence of various religious institutions that had no connection or understanding of the philosophical development of the doctrine of the Trinity.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Within the context of Trinitarian philosophical development, it's insightful to examine Psalm 110, verses 1 and 5, in light of Peter's citation in Acts 2:34. The challenge lies in the positioning of the second "Lord" in the first verse, being at the right hand of YHWH, and that same position being ascribed to the Psalmist in verse 5. This raises the intriguing question of whether the Psalmist is also at the right hand of YHWH.

The text from Acts 2:34 is a quotation from Psalm 110:1.

In Hebrew:

מזמור לדוד (A Psalm of David) נאם (The declaration of) יהוה (the LORD) לאדני (to my Lord), שׁב (Sit) לימיני (at my right hand), עד (until) אשׁית (I make) איביך (your enemies) הדם (your footstool). לרגליך (under your feet).
In Greek:

εἶπεν (said) ὁ (the) κύριος (Lord) τῷ (to the) κυρίῳ (Lord) μου (of me), κάθου (Sit) ἐκ (at) δεξιῶν (right hand) μου (of me), ἕως (until) ἂν (I make) θῶ (your) τοὺς (the) ἐχθρούς (enemies) σου (of you) ὑποπόδιον (a footstool) τῶν (of the) ποδῶν (feet) σου (of you).
Jesus provided a key insight into interpreting these verses when he mentioned that David spoke them "in spirit," signifying a trance-like state (Matthew 22:43).

Matthew 22:43

λέγει αὐτοῖς• πῶς οὖν Δαυὶδ ἐν πνεύματι καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον λέγων•
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying
In Psalm 110:5, David is no longer in a "spirit" state, and thus, he sees the Messiah merely as his carnal descendant, one who would come from his loins. This is why the Messiah, in his carnal form, is "at his right hand."

Psalm 110:5 (KJV):

"The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."
Thus, the entire Psalm is in the third person and sung by the Levites, indicating that the Messiah will not be merely a carnal man but an eternal Elohim King and Priest.

Without resorting to New Testament texts, the question is about the nature of Elohim at the right hand of YHWH. What is the nature, manifestation, personality, and essence of Elohim in relation to YHWH? This is the philosophical path of the doctrine of the Trinity.

I am not a proponent of the Trinity doctrine, and I also believe that any informed Catholic would not defend the Trinity doctrine based on "Sola Scriptura." We have a common foundation of veneration (hyperdulia) for Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the "Word of God" in Islam. We also share common ground with the Lutheran Church in sacraments and the Eucharist. Therefore, we worship the Father in our prayers with mutual respect.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Did you observe the adverse Trinitarian complexities that arose with the interpretation over time of Luther's legacy? Contrary to Luther's possible intentions, his influence ended up contributing to the emergence of various religious institutions that had no connection or understanding of the philosophical development of the doctrine of the Trinity.
So… where is the definition of Trinity shown in the scriptures?

Jesus never stated a three person God… GOD never stated that he was three persons… Trinity claims are not shown in the scriptures - in fact, in most cases there are ONLY TWO PERSONS AS A UNITY - God and Jesus… that is RECURSIVE since trinity says Jesus is God so we have:
  • ‘Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit’ and ‘Jesus’
  • But since Jesus IS GOD we then have:
    • ‘Father, GOD, and Holy Spirit’ and ‘Jesus’
  • And, of course, Father is also God… and Holy Spirit is also God… by trinity… so the legs and depth of definition of trinity get ever deeper without end… it only EVER STOPS when it is admitted that Jesus IS NOT GOD. The ‘bubble’ then moves back up until we reach back to:
    • ‘God, Holy Spirit’ and ‘Jesus’
  • And then do the same with ‘Holy Spirit’ and you get:
    • ‘God’ and Holy Spirit and Jesus
  • Which leaves:
    1. ‘The Father, ALONE IS GOD’ (proved)
    2. ‘Jesus is the Son of God’ (proved)
    3. ‘Holy Spirit’ is ‘SPIRIT OF THE FATHER’ - Spirit OF GOD!!
(P.s. I’m sorry if you don’t understand Recursion… it means something defined downwards by its same definition until an element of the definition become false and the recursion is reiterated upwards to a conclusion as shown above! It’s like asking a question over and over and asking got greater definition at each level down. Then, as soon as a point differs from the original definition that information is put into the previous claim and moved back up each time until we reach the beginning… the original claim but with the new definition point in place…)

I do not see, read, nor ever seen generalised any claim of three persons as the one true God of the Jews / Israelites.

So WHO DOES have THE DEFINITIVE DEFINITION of trinity? Let’s examine that!
 
Last edited:

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Before you reply back with John 1:1 in an English version(which will be addressed below) that capitalized "god" when referring to Jesus know that all punctuation, including what to capitalize or lower case was in the hands of the translator. Its best to let scripture explain scripture. Know that the bible says there is only one Almighty God(Jesus' God and Father). Notice other things IN SCRIPTURE (I didnt write it) are called god- again capital and lower case were up to the translator thats why its important to let the bible translate itself.
False

Revelation 22:6
"The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true.The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Revelation 22:12
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Revelation 22:16
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Definitions of transitivity. (logic and mathematics)
"A relation between three elements such that if it holds between the first and second and it also holds between the second and third it must necessarily hold between the first and third."

"Transitive inference (TI) is the ability to infer social relationships between individuals (e.g., if A < B and B < C, then A < C).
 

TiggerII

Active Member
False

Revelation 22:6
"The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true.The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Revelation 22:12
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Revelation 22:16
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Definitions of transitivity. (logic and mathematics)
"A relation between three elements such that if it holds between the first and second and it also holds between the second and third it must necessarily hold between the first and third."

"Transitive inference (TI) is the ability to infer social relationships between individuals (e.g., if A < B and B < C, then A < C).
.........................................................................


Quotation marks re not found in any early NT manuscripts before 1600 A.D. They are put into translation wherever the translator wants them.
The use of "Alpha and Omega" at Rev. 1:11 is spurious.

Excerpt from my study "Speaker Confusion Trick":

Is Jesus ‘Alpha and Omega’ in Rev. 22?

Now look again at Rev. 22:8-16. (The SC trick doesn’t work nearly as well here, but some trinitarians insist on using it anyway.) John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in :)9). The angel apparently continues speaking in :)10). The angel may be still speaking in :)11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in :)12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words.

(The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses “him.“

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title “Alpha and Omega” confirms this understanding.

“And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ .... And He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.’” - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

“Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as ‘sons of God [the Father].’ (Gal. 3:26; 4:6).” - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
What you did was MODIFY the trinity belief in the same way ALL TRINITARIANS modify THEIR belief as and when they are faced with the truth that trinity is a false belief.

I have seen so many versions of ‘What REAL TRINITY’ means that it is absolutely clear that NO ONE has a definitive version SINCE TRINITY IS A FLUX BELIEF bending itself according to what trinity needs to defend itself against.

As each trinity SCAM is uncovered trinity devises another scam to cover the previous one.

Did you observe the adverse Trinitarian complexities that arose with the interpretation over time of Luther's legacy? Contrary to Luther's possible intentions, his influence ended up contributing to the emergence of various religious institutions that had no connection or understanding of the philosophical development of the doctrine of the Trinity.
an interesting observation and distinction. Marty's "Faith Alone" / "Free Pass" doctrine a definite parting of the ways.. and thus we have one of the few times when we can say a Prophecy has been fulfilled - Matt 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Bad fruit this Martin fellow - his most famous Treatise "On the Jews and their Lies" -- In the treatise, he argues that Jewish synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes burned, and property and money confiscated. Luther demanded that no mercy or kindness be given to them,[3] afforded no legal protection,[4] and "these poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[5] He also advocates their murder, writing "[W]e are at fault in not slaying them"

By their fruit you shall know them -- taking the sheep down the bad path -- One place Jesus calls people "Foolish" -- reason Brother James calls people Foolish --- "Faith Alone" doctrine.. ain't no Free Pass through the pearly gates ... all must go through judgement accordig to HeyZeus .. The Most High tell you True .. what gonna happen to you !




sasas
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
.........................................................................


Quotation marks re not found in any early NT manuscripts before 1600 A.D. They are put into translation wherever the translator wants them.
The use of "Alpha and Omega" at Rev. 1:11 is spurious.

Excerpt from my study "Speaker Confusion Trick":

Is Jesus ‘Alpha and Omega’ in Rev. 22?

Now look again at Rev. 22:8-16. (The SC trick doesn’t work nearly as well here, but some trinitarians insist on using it anyway.) John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in :)9). The angel apparently continues speaking in :)10). The angel may be still speaking in :)11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in :)12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words.

(The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses “him.“

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title “Alpha and Omega” confirms this understanding.

“And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ .... And He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.’” - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

“Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as ‘sons of God [the Father].’ (Gal. 3:26; 4:6).” - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.

You seem to want to make it confusing.
A simple way to see that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega is to see that verse 12 and 13 are the same one speaking,
Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Then we see further down that it is Jesus that is spoken of as the one who is coming soon and to whom John prays to come soon.
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

In Rev 21 we have Rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

And Jesus is our Eternal Father (Isa 9:6) and we get our life from Him.
John 6: 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

Christians are the offspring of Jesus, His children. Jesus is the Son of God and we are the children of God through Jesus.

Rev 1:7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The Alpha and Omega, the one who is coming is Jesus, the Almighty.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
.........................................................................


Quotation marks re not found in any early NT manuscripts before 1600 A.D. They are put into translation wherever the translator wants them.
The use of "Alpha and Omega" at Rev. 1:11 is spurious.

Excerpt from my study "Speaker Confusion Trick":

Is Jesus ‘Alpha and Omega’ in Rev. 22?

Now look again at Rev. 22:8-16. (The SC trick doesn’t work nearly as well here, but some trinitarians insist on using it anyway.) John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in :)9). The angel apparently continues speaking in :)10). The angel may be still speaking in :)11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in :)12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words.

(The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses “him.“

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title “Alpha and Omega” confirms this understanding.

“And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ .... And He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.’” - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

“Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as ‘sons of God [the Father].’ (Gal. 3:26; 4:6).” - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.
It’s even simpler for ‘Alpha and Omega’, ‘First and Last’, ‘Beginning and End’…

They ALL mean: ‘The only one’…

Try it for yourself by constructing a sentence for each…

Jesus is the only holy, sinless, immortal, son of God

God is the only Father - the only [true] God

Jesus is the only one [yet] born from the dead

Jesus is the beginning and end of salvation

Jesus is the only mediator between GOD and Man

Jesus is our only Sheperd
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
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Quotation marks re not found in any early NT manuscripts before 1600 A.D. They are put into translation wherever the translator wants them.
The use of "Alpha and Omega" at Rev. 1:11 is spurious.

Excerpt from my study "Speaker Confusion Trick":

Is Jesus ‘Alpha and Omega’ in Rev. 22?

Now look again at Rev. 22:8-16. (The SC trick doesn’t work nearly as well here, but some trinitarians insist on using it anyway.) John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in :)9). The angel apparently continues speaking in :)10). The angel may be still speaking in :)11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in :)12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words.

(The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses “him.“

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title “Alpha and Omega” confirms this understanding.

“And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ .... And He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.’” - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

“Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as ‘sons of God [the Father].’ (Gal. 3:26; 4:6).” - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.
When you say this , you forget that Christianity lays on:
5,800 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament
10,000 Latin manuscripts
9,300 manuscripts in other languages.

Even if we didn't have these manuscripts we can still form a Bible from the writings of early Christians referred as the “Church Fathers”.
Do you know that the Church Fathers wrote around 370,000 biblical references?

You said : "wherever the translator wants them" but even today there are testimonies from Christians who pray on the name of Jesus Christ, and miracles happen , even today.
I cam share some stories here , but even then it will be rejected.


1 Corinthians 14
In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners,I will speak to this people,but even then they will not listen to me,says the Lord.”
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers."


Isaiah 43
"Lead out those who have eyes but are blind,who have ears but are deaf.All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold thisand proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,so that others may hear and say,“It is true.”
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,and my servant whom I have chosen,so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.Before me no god was formed,nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am the Lord,and apart from me there is no savior.I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Rev 22:19-21
"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen."
 

Endure

Member
Before you reply back with John 1:1 in an English version(which will be addressed below) that capitalized "god" when referring to Jesus know that all punctuation, including what to capitalize or lower case was in the hands of the translator. Its best to let scripture explain scripture. Know that the bible says there is only one Almighty God(Jesus' God and Father). Notice other things IN SCRIPTURE (I didnt write it) are called god- again capital and lower case were up to the translator thats why its important to let the bible translate itself.



1. Yhwh is the only one refered to as Almighty God.
" And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Yhwh I did not make myself known to them." Ex 6:3

2. "No God but me"?
"This is what Yhwh says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Yhwh of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.'" Isa 44:6

In the overall context of the bible He is saying he has no equal. There are obviously other gods as we will see. He even says, "Have no other gods besides me" Ex 20:3

3. Other gods but not Yhwh
Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified—" John 10:34-35

"God(Yhwh) takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges" Ps 82:1

Jesus and Satan are both gods according to scripure but are not Yhwh
"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." 2 Cor 4:4

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1



We can see through the scriptures that other living things can be refered to as god, but there is only 1 Almighty God which is Yhwh(Jehovah is some bibles LORD in some bibles)
Actually, the Father claimed to BE Jesus many times, many ways.

And Isaiah told us that Jesus would be the Father almost a thousand years before Christ was born.

Since there are no other Gods besides God Almighty, any other 'god' is a demonic entity.

Are you saying Jesus is actually a demonic entity?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Actually, the Father claimed to BE Jesus many times, many ways.

And Isaiah told us that Jesus would be the Father almost a thousand years before Christ was born.

Since there are no other Gods besides God Almighty, any other 'god' is a demonic entity.

Are you saying Jesus is actually a demonic entity?
Actually, the Father claimed to BE Jesus many times, many ways.”​
Is that true?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I'll repeat here the opinion of Catholic scholars, which is also my own:

1) The doctrine of Unity is biblical, as it is present in the Old Testament, the New Testament, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

2) The "Doctrine of the Trinity" is a philosophical development of the Doctrine of Unity.

3) All the verses of the New Testament have been extensively reviewed, and through a fair and impartial interpretation, they do not explicitly prove or demonstrate the doctrine of the Trinity.

4) The Doctrine of the Trinity is something extremely specific to the Christian Catholic Assembly and is only relevant to it; anyone venturing outside this philosophical magisterium is destined to fail in proving it.
I believe that is a wrong conclusion.

I believe I am outside and have proven it over and over.
 

Endure

Member
Actually, the Father claimed to BE Jesus many times, many ways.”​
Is that true?
If you have a decent knowledge of the New Testament, you can read Isaiah chapters 40-48 (KJV) very closely and see for yourself.

God bless.
 

Endure

Member
Before you reply back with John 1:1 in an English version(which will be addressed below) that capitalized "god" when referring to Jesus know that all punctuation, including what to capitalize or lower case was in the hands of the translator. Its best to let scripture explain scripture. Know that the bible says there is only one Almighty God(Jesus' God and Father). Notice other things IN SCRIPTURE (I didnt write it) are called god- again capital and lower case were up to the translator thats why its important to let the bible translate itself.



1. Yhwh is the only one refered to as Almighty God.
" And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Yhwh I did not make myself known to them." Ex 6:3

2. "No God but me"?
"This is what Yhwh says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Yhwh of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.'" Isa 44:6

In the overall context of the bible He is saying he has no equal. There are obviously other gods as we will see. He even says, "Have no other gods besides me" Ex 20:3

3. Other gods but not Yhwh
Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified—" John 10:34-35

"God(Yhwh) takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges" Ps 82:1

Jesus and Satan are both gods according to scripure but are not Yhwh
"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." 2 Cor 4:4

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1



We can see through the scriptures that other living things can be refered to as god, but there is only 1 Almighty God which is Yhwh(Jehovah is some bibles LORD in some bibles)
Every person I've ever seen debate your position, on many forums, does not debate in a fair, reasonable or logical way at all. Proof after proof to the contrary can be presented to them and they will go so far as to claim the Bible is wrong when presented with plenty of Biblical evidence to the contrary of their position - WHILE simultaneously using the Bible as the source of all their claimed proof texts. That is an officially unsound argument.

It is a complete waste of time.

All the same, here is a pretty definitive quote straight from Jesus Christ about Him being God. Feel free to make up all manner of lies about the verse not meaning what it says or the original language not having the same meaning or any other absolute nonsense about the fully legitimate verse from Revelation:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Rev. 1:8
 

Bjm

New Member
Before you reply back with John 1:1 in an English version(which will be addressed below) that capitalized "god" when referring to Jesus know that all punctuation, including what to capitalize or lower case was in the hands of the translator. Its best to let scripture explain scripture. Know that the bible says there is only one Almighty God(Jesus' God and Father). Notice other things IN SCRIPTURE (I didnt write it) are called god- again capital and lower case were up to the translator thats why its important to let the bible translate itself.



1. Yhwh is the only one refered to as Almighty God.
" And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Yhwh I did not make myself known to them." Ex 6:3

2. "No God but me"?
"This is what Yhwh says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Yhwh of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.'" Isa 44:6

In the overall context of the bible He is saying he has no equal. There are obviously other gods as we will see. He even says, "Have no other gods besides me" Ex 20:3

3. Other gods but not Yhwh
Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified—" John 10:34-35

"God(Yhwh) takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges" Ps 82:1

Jesus and Satan are both gods according to scripure but are not Yhwh
"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." 2 Cor 4:4

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1



We can see through the scriptures that other living things can be refered to as god, but there is only 1 Almighty God which is Yhwh(Jehovah is some bibles LORD in some bibles)
What about other gods mentioned at Deuteronmoy 5:7? Israel had just been liberated from Egypt, where Osiris, Isis, and Horus were worshipped. This is why Israel was commanded to worship just one God.
 

Bjm

New Member
What about other gods mentioned at Deuteronmoy 5:7? Israel had just been liberated from Egypt, where Osiris, Isis, and Horus were worshipped. This is why Israel was commanded to worship just one God.
They were not given this command because there are multiple gods but to show that God expected exclusive devotion. So there had to be a distinction made. If you look at the ten plagues, each of those plagues represented in some form one of their gods. The Egyptians expected their gods would protect them. But that didn't turn out to be the case because they were all false gods. Which is why the distinction is made.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
If you have a decent knowledge of the New Testament, you can read Isaiah chapters 40-48 (KJV) very closely and see for yourself.

God bless.
You mean that God the Father claimed to be Jesus Christ, the Son?
 
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