Died For Our Sins ?

[sojourner]

I fail to see how this is much different to what was said above

I have always thought belief in God went hand in hand with special rules.

Superstition: "Any belief or attitude that is inconsistent with the known laws of science or with what is generally considered in the particular society as true and rational.

What about the world view I mentioned is inconsistent with the known laws of science, or with what is generally considered by our society as true and rational?

 

[Heneni]

I don't think this answers the question. If all are "in" Adam, then all are "in" Christ, as well.

No all are not in christ. Just as everybody that was IN adam died because of adam, so all that are IN christ are made alive. It never said that all ARE in christ.

IF all are in christ, who do you think is going to the lake of fire? chirst?

Who do you think the wrath comes upon, christ?

Being in christ, means you share the same fate as christ, just as everybody that was in adam share his own fate. Dont confuse the two fates with each other.

Heneni

 

[Poisonshady313]

And if a non-repentant murderer or rapist believes in Christ? Seriously, I would love to see some biblical support for the notion that a "believer" can live any way he wishes and still end up in Heaven and that someone like Gandhi (who obviously acknowledged the existance of Jesus Christ but did not believe that Jesus Christ was his Savior) is going to end up condemned to an eternity in Hell.

I don't suppose there is any such biblical support... however, Martin Luther seems to support the notion you mentioned.

Sick, isn't it?

 

[sojourner]

No all are not in christ. Just as everybody that was IN adam died because of adam, so all that are IN christ are made alive. It never said that all ARE in christ.

IF all are in christ, who do you think is going to the lake of fire? chirst?

Who do you think the wrath comes upon, christ?

Being in christ, means you share the same fate as christ, just as everybody that was in adam share his own fate. Dont confuse the two fates with each other.

Heneni

"...for as all die in Adam, so all will be make alive in Christ." (I Cor. 15:22)
Sounds to me like all die "in" Adam, and all will be made alive "in" Christ.

No one is going to a lake of fire. All flesh will see salvation.
The wrath has come and gone with the Incarnation.

The "fate" of Christ is unity with the Father. If we are all to share that fate, then so be it.

 

[Heneni]

"...for as all die in Adam, so all will be make alive in Christ." (I Cor. 15:22)
Sounds to me like all die "in" Adam, and all will be made alive "in" Christ.

No one is going to a lake of fire. All flesh will see salvation.
The wrath has come and gone with the Incarnation.

The "fate" of Christ is unity with the Father. If we are all to share that fate, then so be it.

And again. All that are IN christ shall be made alive. It never said that ALL ARE in christ.

Perhaps you are throwing the rest of the NT away, because you have stumbled on one scripture that you interpret to mean that ALL are in christ.

 

[sojourner]

And again. All that are IN christ shall be made alive. It never said that ALL ARE in christ.

Perhaps you are throwing the rest of the NT away, because you have stumbled on one scripture that you interpret to mean that ALL are in christ.

Once again, here's what the scripture says:

"...for as all die in Adam, so all will be make alive in Christ."

Since you imply that "all" means all for Adam, how can you imply that "all" doesn't mean "all" for Christ? Since the preceding verse says "For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come (note past tense -- as in "already happened") through a human being." The common thread is "through a human being." As far as I'm aware, we're all human beings. Therefore all human beings that were dead in Adam the human being, are made alive in Jesus the human being.

 

[sojourner]

Perhaps you are throwing the rest of the NT away, because you have stumbled on one scripture that you interpret to mean that ALL are in christ.

Perhaps you are throwing the rest of the NT away, because you have stumbled on one scripture that you interpret as a literal event.

 

[Heneni]

Once again, here's what the scripture says:

"...for as all die in Adam, so all will be make alive in Christ."

Since you imply that "all" means all for Adam, how can you imply that "all" doesn't mean "all" for Christ? Since the preceding verse says "For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come (note past tense -- as in "already happened") through a human being." The common thread is "through a human being." As far as I'm aware, we're all human beings. Therefore all human beings that were dead in Adam the human being, are made alive in Jesus the human being.

Yes ALL will be made alive in christ, but not ALL are in christ. Now if you cant get that

Just as all in adam died, in the same way all that ARE in christ shall be made alive.

1 John5:12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1 Tes 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

God did not appoint his children for wrath, so...does that mean the wrath dissapears because all are in chirst? If the wrath of god is poured out on his children, it would be the same as pouring it out on christ himself. Obviously not all are in christ.

. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Did you see the 'us'? It does not say, made ALL alive in christ, because not all were in christ.

Ephesians 1:4
. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Again, the scripture says 'us'. The letter was not addressed to the entire world.

 

[Mr Cheese]

from an esoteric stance all is in Christ....

"
Primal man…. Adam of course becomes “seperated” and forms a duality, of Adam and Eve.
Here we find the goal of many “spiritual” paths, to obtain unification, completeness and the return to the primordial.
As Thomas Aquinas said:
There are only 3 movements in the universe
The circle, female
The Line, Male
and

and
obtuse…..a unification of male and female…changing direction mid-flow…serpentine….the kabalistic lightning flash..the chord…quintessence…aether..the Christ…..
SO we see the idea of the alchemical unity…..
A “chemical wedding” (the Rosicrucian term)…a marriage of opposites to form a new whole…..


Thus we see the primordial Adam is the serpent, composed of the male and the female, both and yet neither.
In Gnosticism we see this in the figure of Seth. Thus Adam forms adam and eve, then we have cain and abel and various daughters(depending on who’s version you are reading!)…who are all unified, back through a marriage of opposites in the figure of Seth."

But I understand such allusions are beyond most people here

“Ex Deo nascimur.
In Jesu Morimur
Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus.”

 

[Heneni]

No one is going to a lake of fire.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

So who are these folk above then who are 'not' going to the lake of fire?

 

[Heneni]

Perhaps you are throwing the rest of the NT away, because you have stumbled on one scripture that you interpret as a literal event.

And again....the lake of fire is real and some are going there.

 

[sojourner]

Yes ALL will be made alive in christ, but not ALL are in christ. Now if you cant get that

Just as all in adam died, in the same way all that ARE in christ shall be made alive.

But that's not what the passage in question says... Why are you twisting it?

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Don't you trust enough to trust that what God has appointed will come to pass???

He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

So...if some of us end up in a lake of fire, then God's "plan" didn't work???

You're doing an excellent job of arguing my point. Thank you.

God did not appoint his children for wrath, so...does that mean the wrath dissapears because all are in chirst?

Yes! Yes! Yes! God turned aside from God's wrath in the Jesus Event.

If the wrath of god is poured out on his children, it would be the same as pouring it out on christ himself. Obviously not all are in christ.

God's wrath has not been poured out.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Once again...proves my point. Even when we were dead in transgression, God made us alive with Christ. You're right! That is grace, indeed!

Did you see the 'us'? It does not say, made ALL alive in christ, because not all were in christ.

Of course all are "in" Christ, just as all are "in" Adam.

Again, the scripture says 'us'. The letter was not addressed to the entire world.

So? The letter was written to whom it was written. We are not Ephesians, so the letter was not written to you or I, either. It was written to the Ephesians. happily, Ephesians has nothing to do with the passage in I Cor., which clearly states that all are made alive in Christ.

 

[sojourner]

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

So who are these folk above then who are 'not' going to the lake of fire?

All. Because all have been made alive in Christ.

 

[sojourner]

And again....the lake of fire is real and some are going there.

Then the gospel is ineffective and God is powerless to do God's own will. And Christ's suffering was meaningless.

The POV of the Bible was not nearly as individualistic as yours. Salvation was for humanity -- not for individuals within humanity.

 

[Breathe]

So who are these folk above then who are 'not' going to the lake of fire?

In my view, I would highlight differently to you.


"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[Heneni]

Well sujourner, you are making WiDE your fallacies on one scripture and conveniently ignoring all the others.

I cant debate with someone who chooses to ignore 70% of the bible to base a doctrine on one scripture.

the lake of fire is in the bible....its going to happen and it is real.
There are far more scripture that indicate that not ALL have been put in christ than there is to suggest that all are.

For one, the HS is given to those who are in christ, and so the entire world must be sealed by the HS for salvation if all are in chirst. And again, if you cant find scripture that says that the HS is in everybody, then i would say everybody is not sealed for salvation.

But as it is, a seared conscience is proof of the absence of the HS. You cant have a seared conscience and claim to have the HS! And therefore cant claim that you are in christ, because those who are in christ are precisely those who have the HS. And the HS is what seals our salvation.

There is no salvation without faith sujourner....faith and grace. And the bible is literaly stacked with scripture showing that not everbody has faith. So if you dont have faith, how do you propose people can be saved without it? Faith comes by hearing and understanding, and since the world hears but doesnt understand it is foolishness to them. Can the gospel be foolishness to anybody that is IN christ? No...

 

[Heneni]

In my view, I would highlight differently to you.


"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Yeh, twice dead. NOT alive IN christ.

 

[sojourner]

Well sujourner, you are making WiDE your fallacies on one scripture and conveniently ignoring all the others.

1) You'll have to show me the fallacy of my take on the I Cor. passage.
2) It's not convenient, I assure you.
3) I'm not ignoring -- just concentrating on this particular one for now. Proof-texting doesn't get us anywhere.

I cant debate with someone who chooses to ignore 70% of the bible to base a doctrine on one scripture.

I can assure that:
1) I'm not ignoring anything
2) I don't base doctrine on one passage. There are many, many passages -- indeed -- the overarching message of the Bible is God's redemptive mercy.

the lake of fire is in the bible....its going to happen and it is real.

The Bible also says that Job's Triumph was heard throughout the land, too. But I doubt he ever rode a motorcycle.

There are far more scripture that indicate that not ALL have been put in christ than there is to suggest that all are.

False. Patently false.

For one, the HS is given to those who are in christ, and so the entire world must be sealed by the HS for salvation if all are in chirst. And again, if you cant find scripture that says that the HS is in everybody, then i would say everybody is not sealed for salvation.

Look in Genesis. God breathed Spirit into the man's nostrils, and he became a living being.
We are made in God's image, after all...

But as it is, a seared conscience is proof of the absence of the HS. You cant have a seared conscience and claim to have the HS! And therefore cant claim that you are in christ, because those who are in christ are precisely those who have the HS. And the HS is what seals our salvation.

Poetic hyperbole. Everybody has a "seared conscience" -- except for sociopaths.

There is no salvation without faith sujourner....faith and grace.

Christ's faith was sufficient to make up for the lack of faith in the rest of us.

And the bible is literaly stacked with scripture showing that not everbody has faith.

it's also stacked with scripture showing that God has mercy in spite of our disbelief.

So if you dont have faith, how do you propose people can be saved without it?

By the faith of Christ.

Faith comes by hearing and understanding, and since the world hears but doesnt understand it is foolishness to them.

And yet, little children -- without understanding -- are the ones for whom God's kin-dom exists.

Can the gospel be foolishness to anybody that is IN christ?

Only to those who are too entitled to see the mercy that is available for the very least among us.

 

[Heneni]

1) You'll have to show me the fallacy of my take on the I Cor. passage.
2) It's not convenient, I assure you.
3) I'm not ignoring -- just concentrating on this particular one for now. Proof-texting doesn't get us anywhere.

I can assure that:
1) I'm not ignoring anything
2) I don't base doctrine on one passage. There are many, many passages -- indeed -- the overarching message of the Bible is God's redemptive mercy.

The Bible also says that Job's Triumph was heard throughout the land, too. But I doubt he ever rode a motorcycle.

False. Patently false.

Look in Genesis. God breathed Spirit into the man's nostrils, and he became a living being.
We are made in God's image, after all...

Poetic hyperbole. Everybody has a "seared conscience" -- except for sociopaths.

Christ's faith was sufficient to make up for the lack of faith in the rest of us.

it's also stacked with scripture showing that God has mercy in spite of our disbelief.

By the faith of Christ.

And yet, little children -- without understanding -- are the ones for whom God's kin-dom exists.

Only to those who are too entitled to see the mercy that is available for the very least among us.

First of all if being created in adam meant we are all saved then jesus wasted his time.

To be saved you have to put your faith in him. Any other gospel is false, and it seems to me, you are right on track with that one.

Again god did not breathe the HS into adam, LOL...if he did he wasted his time to send the comforter, because all man has it already according to you.

There is ample proof in the bible that folk have seared consciences

1 Timothy 4:2 whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Cant have a seared concience with the HS working in it which is why paul said:

1 Timothy 3:9
They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience

Holding on to the deep truths of faith. You cant be saved without it, so you have to hold onto it. And how? With a clear conscience. Cant hold on to faith with a seared conscience.

The next time jesus comes he does not come with mercy he comes with judgement. He came with mercy the first time around. You have to BELIEVE in him to recieve that mercy. Cant get mercy from something you dont believe in lol....

 

[Thief]

Thief here....

The forgiveness of sin is not well addressed here.
There are incidents reported in the gospels wherein relief was dealt....
and little if nothing was said about the offense...or the person against whom the offense was dealt.

The parable of the prodigal son might help here.
Surely you recall the objection made as a feast was prepared to celebrate the return of a wayward son?
Doing good things is important...of course.
But will you celebrate when someone who offended you is welcomed with open arms...and a party?

What if someone who has offended you greatly...name the most serious action you dare to....is then "forgiven".... and treated equal to you?

At the same time, warning has been dealt....
There are many who do good things...and the Lord knows them not.

You people know your rhetoric well enough.
But you will be forgiven as you forgave others.
The line drawn....is the line you draw.