Died For Our Sins ?

[Heneni]

At some point, all will be washed clean.

Unless they wont. If there was scripture in the bible to show that in the lake of fire they will be 'washed' clean or 'burnt' clean i would believe it.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Like it, do you think it is possible that your thoughts are heaven, a sure place there is no night and no day???

Hmmm....no i wouldnt think so...our mind is part of our soul. Our soul and spirit are two different things.

Our soul is our

1. Volition
2. Intellect
3. Emotions

All these things make up our soul. Dont really think that heaven is in our descisions, our IQ or our feelings.

Heneni

 

[sojourner]

Heaven is the sons inheritance. Does a son not deserve an inheritance. He doesnt work for it sure...but does he deserve not to get it because he is a son? Let me show you who will NEVER inherit the kingdom

1 Cor 6:9
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

Let me show you who will never get the inheritance:
Cain
Ishmael
Esau
David's eldest

All first born, all well within their "rights" according to the law of primogeniture. None of them inherited according to God. According to God, the "wrong" son always inherits. It is those who are lower than a snake's genitals that God will welcome first, and to whom God will give God's kin-dom.

Grace saves. Grace and faith. Salvation is a gift. Can work for it. But if you are a son, god has given you an inheritance

Well, according to your precious Romans passage, even those whom we think are not inheritors are inheritors. And they inherit, not because of something they did, but because of something God does.

Mercy is conditional on the condition that god gives it.

Completely ignoring the obvious. Once again, mercy cannot be conditional because love is not conditional. God always gives it, so the condition is moot on that point alone.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."G 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

"But who indeed are you to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, 'Why have you made me like this?' has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? What if God, although desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -- including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

I dont believe in replacement theology.

Yes, you do. "Replacement theology" assumes a new Israel, such as you assume here:

I believe that god wanted to choose a new group of people for himself and they are called christians.

The Bible assumes a true Israel, comprised of Jews and Gentiles, whom God calls to a new covenant.

Paul is far less obscure than you are at the moment.

Shows what you know.

Paul was an excellent scholar. I trust what he says.

Do you also trust the scholars who have translated Paul for you?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Sojourner it is also sad that you think you know more than Jesus. Was it not Jesus who said that in the last day there will be those that say, "let us come in, for we preached in your name" What was Jesus's reply? I am sure you know what it was, so I will just leave it at that.

Your ideology is neat and probably popular with many people because it paints God as a teddy bear. It is not sound in biblical doctrine though.

Bump to Sojourner

 

[sojourner]

Unless they wont. If there was scripture in the bible to show that in the lake of fire they will be 'washed' clean or 'burnt' clean i would believe it.

Heneni

Why wouldn't they be? Do you believe that God does not love all of us equally? And that God's grace is not sufficient for all of us?

Why are you so adamant about excluding people from reconciliation with God? Where is your hope in the Resurrection?

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner it is also sad that you think you know more than Jesus. Was it not Jesus who said that in the last day there will be those that say, "let us come in, for we preached in your name" What was Jesus's reply? I am sure you know what it was, so I will just leave it at that.

Your ideology is neat and probably popular with many people because it paints God as a teddy bear. It is not sound in biblical doctrine though.

Who said I think I know more than Jesus???

Haven't you ever heard of hyperbole? Don't you suppose that may have been what Jesus was engaging in, such as he was when he suggested that a camel could go through the eye of a needle?

It would be helpful to have a reference, so that a proper exegesis of this passage could be rendered.

The doctrine is sound -- and Biblically-based. It is not popular, though as this thread will bear out. It does not seek to paint God as a teddy bear. it does seek to bring out the extravagance of God's grace, which I believe is extant in the scriptures.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Who said I think I know more than Jesus???

Haven't you ever heard of hyperbole? Don't you suppose that may have been what Jesus was engaging in, such as he was when he suggested that a camel could go through the eye of a needle?

It would be helpful to have a reference, so that a proper exegesis of this passage could be rendered.

The doctrine is sound -- and Biblically-based. It is not popular, though as this thread will bear out. It does not seek to paint God as a teddy bear. it does seek to bring out the extravagance of God's grace, which I believe is extant in the scriptures.

Sure here is an actual reference to discuss,

Luke ch 13"24": Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
"25": When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
"26": Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
"27": But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
"28": There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

I suppose this could be construed as hyperbole, but I think you would need a slinky and some real stretchy tape to make it happen.

 

[sojourner]

[Quote:]
Luke ch 13"24": Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
"25": When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
"26": Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
"27": But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
"28": There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
I suppose this could be construed as hyperbole, but I think you would need a slinky and some real stretchy tape to make it happen.[/quote]


Notice who makes it in:
Abraham -- a foreigner
Isaac -- the younger son of a foreigner
Jacob -- a younger son and a cheat
Prophets -- those who often speak against the establishment

All lowly. None were favored by "the system."

This isn't about who will and will not receive grace. It's anti-establishment. Entering by the narrow gate is a parabolic act, put there to get the audience to see the other side of God's coin.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

[Quote:]
Luke ch 13"24": Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
"25": When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
"26": Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
"27": But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
"28": There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
I suppose this could be construed as hyperbole, but I think you would need a slinky and some real stretchy tape to make it happen.

Notice who makes it in:
Abraham -- a foreigner
Isaac -- the younger son of a foreigner
Jacob -- a younger son and a cheat
Prophets -- those who often speak against the establishment

All lowly. None were favored by "the system."

This isn't about who will and will not receive grace. It's anti-establishment. Entering by the narrow gate is a parabolic act, put there to get the audience to see the other side of God's coin.

What in the world are you going on about?
It is pretty straightforward.
It's not worth it though to argue with you. We are both suppose to be Christians, so hopefully we can just leave it at that. We disagree, nothing knew among Christians.

Instead let's focus on what we agree on. Jesus is sweet!

 

[Freelancer7]

Hmmm....no i wouldnt think so...our mind is part of our soul. Our soul and spirit are two different things.

Our soul is our

1. Volition
2. Intellect
3. Emotions

All these things make up our soul. Dont really think that heaven is in our descisions, our IQ or our feelings.

Heneni

interesting that you call spirit and soul two different things unless you mean spirit as in spirited??? Emotional voice is of the soul (Intelligent Energy) the two voices you have within, but these two voices can go to war with each other, sometimes I think some politicains do not have a emotional voice, or just shut it out. You have the voice in you head, say something like 'Hello' in your head, but also you can say hello in your heart, the voice is coming from the soul, you know its a different voice alltogether. Its listening to the one in the Heart that matters, even though sometimes if you want to get on in the world the way it is at the moment just go with the voice in the head that falls under the spell of materialism.

 

[sojourner]

What in the world are you going on about?
It is pretty straightforward.
It's not worth it though to argue with you. We are both suppose to be Christians, so hopefully we can just leave it at that. We disagree, nothing knew among Christians.

Instead let's focus on what we agree on. Jesus is sweet!

Luke was written for a largely Gentile audience. He is compassionate toward the outcast -- which the Gentiles of the time were.

It is hyperbole in that it has Jesus tell those of the "establishment" that they will not get in, and will, instead, stand looking at the outcasts who did get in.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Luke was written for a largely Gentile audience. He is compassionate toward the outcast -- which the Gentiles of the time were.

It is hyperbole in that it has Jesus tell those of the "establishment" that they will not get in, and will, instead, stand looking at the outcasts who did get in.

Again I have said I disagree.
The important thing is Jesus did come and is coming again.
Peace!

 

[sojourner]

Does anyone else find it significant that when the early Church -- under great persecution -- was preaching healing to the lame, sight to the blind, welcome to the outcast, and God's unmitigated love and mercy, it enjoyed a steady growth rate of at least 5% per year;
and now that we're preaching exclusion, conditional love, and entitlement of the "favored ones," in a friendly and supportive environment, the Church is in serious decline?

Does anyone have to wonder why?

 

[Thief]

Thief here...
Getting into heaven are we?
We came into this world naked....we leave the same way.

Picture yourself at 'the door'.
About the moment when you overcome your personal embarrassment...and you raise your hand to knock on the door....you will hear a voice from behind you...
"You don't want to do that. Knocking on that door is betrayal to me."

Most people will know that voice.

You will either, throw yourself to the door and beat on it....or you will gather your composure and raise your hand a second time.
And again you will hear that voice....

"You really don't want to do that. Oh sure...the door will open and They will let you in. But...won't They look you over?...the same way They did me?
And won't They throw you back out?...the same way They did me?
And then you will deal with me...traitor!"


BTW...was it not a thief who followed the Carpenter into heaven?

 

[Kurt31416]

Does anyone else find it significant that when the early Church -- under great persecution -- was preaching healing to the lame, sight to the blind, welcome to the outcast, and God's unmitigated love and mercy, it enjoyed a steady growth rate of at least 5% per year;
and now that we're preaching exclusion, conditional love, and entitlement of the "favored ones," in a friendly and supportive environment, the Church is in serious decline?

Does anyone have to wonder why?

Testify.

 

[Heneni]

Why wouldn't they be? Do you believe that God does not love all of us equally? And that God's grace is not sufficient for all of us?

Why are you so adamant about excluding people from reconciliation with God? Where is your hope in the Resurrection?

God is not boxed in by your opinion of what 'love' is or what 'god' is.

God said that he was love, not so that you can hang him up with it.

God does have compassion for the lost sinners. Compassion is part of who he is and so is justice. God's glory can be revealed by his compassion, his justice, his wrath and the lake of fire.

 

[Heneni]

That was a very good post Heneni, thank you.

I don't believe that forgiveness can be separated from salvation. But forgiveness is for those in Christ alone.

This thread originally started with a question about "Christ dying for our sins". I felt the need to distinguish exactly who Christ forgave and died for. I don't think the Bible teaches that he forgave everyone or died for everyone. Quite the contrary, I believe Christ came to save the elect of God.

Hi michael. Before jesus died on the cross he already forgave some people their sins. So im thinking that the dying on the cross was not exclusively to forgive sins, it was to be punished for it.

I think that jesus could forgive sin because he would be punished for it.

There is only one sin i think that god cannot forgive and that will still lead to death, and that is unbelief. If god does not forgive unbelief neiter can we.

 

[sojourner]

God is not boxed in by your opinion of what 'love' is or what 'god' is.

First of all, these are not personal opinion. They are Biblical statements. Love is patient. Love is kind...
God is love. These are Biblical concepts.
Second, I'm not the one boxing God in. I'm trying to break God out so that God's love can be expansive and extravagant.

God said that he was love, not so that you can hang him up with it.

God said God is love, because that's what God is. And love bears all things, hopes all things, believes all things, and endures all things.

God does have compassion for the lost sinners.

Yes, God is! And that's why God created many souls to spend eternity in torment, separated from their Father.

Compassion is part of who he is and so is justice.

Hah! Even earthly judges temper justice with compassion. How much more compassionate is God than an earthly judge? What could be more magnanimous, more compassionate, more merciful, more forbearing, more forgiving than searching for the lost until they are found, and then exercising complete forgiveness, mitigating the prescribed sentence? If you look at it from the POV of those who are lost (instead of from the entitled POV of one who is found), having one's sentence mitigated is compassion, is mercy, is grace. It's only unfair to the saved. Remember the story of the Prodigal? You're throwing a mad fit, just as the older brother did.

God's glory can be revealed by his compassion, his justice, his wrath and the lake of fire.

"Glory" = fatness, wealth. I can't imagine compassion being so poverty-stricken as to condemn a precious soul to torment. Wrath and lake of fire do not reveal glory.

 

[sojourner]

So im thinking that the dying on the cross was not exclusively to forgive sins, it was to be punished for it.

Most sensible and compassionate human systems have outlawed the death sentence. Is God not more sensible and compassionate than we? Punishment by crucifixion is laughable at best and despicable at its core. It's an act of terrorism. Have you ever witnessed a crucifixion? Apparently not.

 

[sojourner]

I think that jesus could forgive sin because he would be punished for it.

Jesus could forgive sin because Jesus was God Incarnate.

There is only one sin i think that god cannot forgive and that will still lead to death, and that is unbelief.

I thought the Bible says that the only unpardonable sin is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit...
BTW, I'm not so sure disbelief is, by definition, sin.