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Difference between Hinduism and Sanatan Dharma?

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
So where does Arya Samaj and ISKCON fit in because I see that Arya Samaj Hinduism is separate from Sanatan Dharma Hinduism. ISKCON are apparently a resurgence of Bengali Vishnuvaiites but for some reason don't like being called Hindus. My experience with ISKCON is that the behaviour during ratha-yatra is extreme e.g. pushing and shoving each other for prasad and breaking it up in the struggle for it

Namaste,

Not going to comment of my ISKON brothers and sisters as im not too familiar with their perspective on the "Hindu", issue. As for the Arya Samaj, you do have to look at the situation and context in Indian History that produced the movement. Swami Dayananda did criticize the practices of his time of his fellow "Hindus", from his perspective i gather that in a time when more civil action was required to over through the British, many were sitting and praying for the Deva and Devi to help them, also the attack on the Veda and its mistranslated English versions which was largely unchallenged by many Hindu Pundits, or the un-questioned acceptance of Sayanachariyas translations as the Only interpretation of the Veda and making it the "Official", interpretation by the indologists that caused the Swami to rise up and question the establishment. I think he wanted to distinguish and protect the Samhita texts from what he considered further distortion (From the Indology side) and misuse (From the Hindu side), therefore creating for the Samaj a separate identity.

He used the Sahstras as his Authority, and what he criticizes are not "Hindu", philosophy per say, but more the same thing the Buddhist/Jains and Siks did, which are the practices of his time. This is not a new tradition among Indians, Standing up for what you believe is something ingrained in the Indian DNA so to speak. This may make the Arya Samaj different from Hindu or Sanatani ect, but the movement is Astika at its core.

Dhanyavad
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Namaste,

....also the attack on the Veda and its mistranslated English versions ...

Attack?

...or the un-questioned acceptance of Sayanachariyas translations as the Only interpretation of the Veda and making it the "Official", interpretation by the indologists ...

If I may ask, which Indologist insisted that Sayana's way was the only interpretation or the only correct interpretation?

I am confused. If the problem is that the Indologists are wrong because they used Sayana's interpretation, then you are really faulting Sayana and not the Indologists. If you believe their mistake is representing Sayana, then their translations cannot be wrong. Unless, they did mis-translate, in which case, they made two mistakes - one was choosing Sayana and the second was to mis-translate him, in which case, they were technically not representing him.

It should be noted here that Sayana (14th Century) was Vidyarana's* brother and therefore his commentaries are from an Advaita background. Owning to the fact that Advaita has always been the dominant Vedanta tradition, if Indologists had to pick a source commentary, Sayana's would be the most likely.

*Vidyaranya - He was a Shankaracharya (head of the Sringeri Math) and he is the author of the Sarva-darshana-sangraha. Also, known as Madhavacharaya, he is also the author of the Shankara Dig-vijaya, an important biography on Shankara.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Well, even in their defense of Hinduism Swami Dayananda and Aurobindo distorted the meaning of Vedas. Distortions cannot be fought with distortions. 'Satyamevajayate nanritam'.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
There is some degree of subtlety over whether ISKCON considers themselves Hindu. Basically, they do in some senses, but don't consider themselves Hindu in the sense of the Neo-Vedantic Smarta-Brahminical tradition exemplified by Vivekananda and such figures, which is how they see Hinduism as often being perceived, at least in the past. As I understand their stance.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
There is some degree of subtlety over whether ISKCON considers themselves Hindu. Basically, they do in some senses, but don't consider themselves Hindu in the sense of the Neo-Vedantic Smarta-Brahminical tradition exemplified by Vivekananda and such figures, which is how they see Hinduism as often being perceived, at least in the past. As I understand their stance.
What is their stance?
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
and it is unreasonable to infer from it, as Muir has done, that the writer of the Mahâbhârata “was not a particularly good Vedic scholar.”

That is the real meaning of the verses quoted above, and in spite of the attempt of Yâska and other scholars to convert the bad name of Vishnu into a good one by the help of etymological speculations, it is plain that shipivishta was a bad name, and that it signified the dark outer appearance of Vishnu in his fight with the demons in the nether world. If the sun is called brihach-chhepas when moving in regions above the horizon, he can be very well described as shipivishta or enveloped like shepa, “when moving in the nether world” and there is hardly anything therein of which the deity or his worshippers should be ashamed."
Tilak invents problems where there are none, and then tries to answer them in order to somehow manipulate it towards the Arctic theory. Śri Yāska's answer to the literalists itself suffices, for Tilak's alternative involves too many assumptions, and there is no reason why etymological derivation - characteristic of saṃskṛtam - should be discarded just because laymen didn't understand. Vedas were anyways not meant for laymen. Moreover, there is nothing that makes his speculation any better. Etymology on the other hand has a priori that is accepted by even Pāṇini - hence it is untenable to taint it as mere 'speculation'. Tilak's contention and solution are therefore baseless and unnecessary. It is common practice to apply several epithets to deities including apparently "bad names", see śatarudra and you'll find plenty of them like thief, dacoit, etc.

Don't be so harsh on Max Mueller. Even Dhundhakari and Ajamil were pardoned by Lord Vishnu. The important thing is that he repented. Let the modern scholars right his wrongs.
Ajamila repented and took corrective action, else it is kunjaraśaucavaṫ!

Don't blame me for what is written in RigVeda.

त्रि यच छता महिषाणाम अघो मास त्रि सरांसि मघवा सोम्यापाः l
कारं न विश्वे अह्वन्त देवा भरम इन्द्राय यद अहिं जघान ll
trī yac chatā mahiṣāṇām agho māsa trī sarāṃsi maghavā somyāpāḥ l
kāraṃ na viśve ahvanta devā bharama indrāya yad ahiṃ jaghāna ll
When thou had eaten three hundred buffaloes' flesh, and drunk, as Maghavan, three lakes of Soma,
All the Gods raised as it were a shout of triumph to Indra praise because he slew the Dragon.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv05029.htm
Blamable to the extent of accepting bad translations :)

Actually I do not see any problem in this. The Aryans, when they were outside India were beef-eaters. When they settled in India where cows were respected, they changed their tradition and went along with the indigenous tradition of the majority. They also took up worship of Rama, Krishna, Shiva and Durga, who are non-Vedic deities, in preference to the worship of Indra, Agni and Soma. Like we say 'if in Rome, do as Romans do'.
There is an implicit assumption that the so called "aryans" replaced their deities with Rāma, Kṛṣṇa etc. Well, it is wrong, who said current practices have done away with Indra, agni, etc? There isn't a single sampradāya, be it advaita/v-advaita/tāttvika where yajñas have no invocation or pre-eminence of these deities. Even daily practices like sandhya incorporate the deities. Makes me doubt, given that you are a Vāsiṣṭḥa you don't perform sandhya? you'd know that your statement is wrong if you did. You are atheistic; but then no point in contending we have given up/demoted the vaidika deities, we haven't. Advaitins too haven't, for all of us use the same mantras depending on the śākhā & sūtra. The age-old practices are consistent and very cogent - the mantras and their application, their deities and their function have all been preserved in the practical tradition even before the times of Śri Śaṅkara. But can't blame western indologists with hidden agendas for not studying existing traditions as is.

Can you provide a single unambiguous reference for the theory "outside bhāratavarṣa, the so-called 'aryans' ate beef, and gave it up once they came here"? Valid references would be for instance "in śatapatha there is a verse which says in place X there were aryans who used to eat beef, and then they travelled to bhāratavarṣa and gave up in reverence to local culture (draviḍa?) of non-aryans" and not conjectures based on bad translations of two/more unrelated events.

It should be noted here that Sayana (14th Century) was Vidyarana's* brother and therefore his commentaries are from an Advaita background. Owning to the fact that Advaita has always been the dominant Vedanta tradition, if Indologists had to pick a source commentary, Sayana's would be the most likely.
Well, Sāyaṇa's commentary arguable belies even advaita approach at places. The second point is not fully right, because the great south Indian hindu Vijayanagara empire that reached its pinnacle under Kṛṣṇadevarāya had Vyāsatīrtha - a Mādhva saint - as its Guru, tho' the foundation for the empire was laid down by advaita Gurus. Only saints of Mādhva lineage haven't been exclusivist unlike others despite significant influence on most kingdoms of the south as well as in marāṭḥa and oḍḍissi (kaliṅga) empires. There are documented evidences of even advaita gurus instigating kings under their influence into being antagonistic to other schools. The advaita school rose to dominance just like the buddhists schools did earlier - thru influence on kings. It is not difficult to see that the only malleable translation available to the indologists was that of Sāyaṇa's. But you are right in that, the indologists haven't been fully faithful even to Sāyaṇa's commentary using it only in places that suits their purpose, but the overall schematics and priori have been borrowed from Sāyaṇa. Also taking only a popular approach is far from being scientific.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु।
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Could you be a little more specific? :confused:
They are a valid sect of Hinduism. They are monotheistic (and creationists), but some other sects also are monotheistic. I consider them Hindu. If someone from them differs, he/she is welcome.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
There is an implicit assumption that the so called "aryans" replaced their deities with Rāma, Kṛṣṇa etc. Well, it is wrong, who said current practices have done away with Indra, agni, etc? There isn't a single sampradāya, be it advaita/v-advaita/tāttvika where yajñas have no invocation or pre-eminence of these deities. Even daily practices like sandhya incorporate the deities. Makes me doubt, given that you are a Vāsiṣṭḥa you don't perform sandhya? you'd know that your statement is wrong if you did. You are atheistic; but then no point in contending we have given up/demoted the vaidika deities, we haven't.
Oh yes, the Aryan Gods are invoked when there is a yajna or homa or a Satyanarayana puja, which is not frequent. A few verses, and then the indigenous Gods and Goddesses rule, I do not know how many Hindus do Sandhyas, perhaps more in South India. In this part of the country, not many. Yes, I am an atheist. I love and respect deities as part of my culture but do not do any puja. (BTW, I belong to a Karma-kandi brahmin family).

How come you take Krishna is the Supreme God? Is he mentioned in RigVeda? Vedic Aryans would have been greatly surprised by your devotion to Krishna. I do not face this problem as I believe that in the assimilation, Aryans accepted the indigenous Gods just as the Indigenous people accepted Vedas. I am perfectly comfortable with Krishna. If my forefathers accepted him, why should I have any problem? So what if the Gods and Goddesses I rever are not part of the RigVedic pantheon. I am following the tradition set my my ancestors

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु।
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Could you be a little more specific? :confused:

I can try.

They feel they are Hindu in the sense that they are part of a broader Hindu culture, history, set of moral systems, etc. But they feel they are not Hindu in the sense that they perceive the term 'Hindu' to often be used to refer to Neo-Vedanta (which is a kind of modern Advaita and related ideas).
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
Oh yes, the Aryan Gods are invoked when there is a yajna or homa or a Satyanarayana puja, which is not frequent.
A few verses, and then the indigenous Gods and Goddesses rule
Not really Aup ji, we perform at least twice a day - called agnihotra, and more at times, which is quite frequent like dvādaśis, pradoṣa, saṅkramaṇa, caturthis, during two-navarātris, well even the daily-twice śoḍaṣopacāra pūja is comprised entirely of vaidika mantras. Maybe you speak from purely smārta &/or kalpokta approach, well, it is smārta &/or kalpokta - based on smṛitis - can't question on the vaidika practices based on that. Nothing newfound in these either, these have been practiced as such for a very long time. Smṛitis make them a little easier with easier mantras (without intonations et al) but otherwise the basic theology is the same.

How come you take Krishna is the Supreme God? Is he mentioned in RigVeda?
Vedic Aryans would have been greatly surprised by your devotion to Krishna. I do not face this problem as I believe that in the assimilation, Aryans accepted the indigenous Gods just as the Indigenous people accepted Vedas. I am perfectly comfortable with Krishna. If my forefathers accepted him, why should I have any problem? So what if the Gods and Goddesses I rever are not part of the RigVedic pantheon. I am following the tradition set my my ancestors
I take Viṣṇu to be the Supreme and Kṛṣṇa as His avatāra. Accepted by everyones forefathers worth their name without having to assume some kind of assimilation. There is in fact no reason to be uncomfortable. Of course you are free to subscribe and propagate the western-indologist views but such a predominantly etic perspective cannot be singularly held as scientific / unbiased.
BTW all avataras are mentioned in the Rg, can't help if Muellers/Griffiths failed to see it. Don't ask for a quote-fest, it won't help unless you learn vaidika saṁskṛtaṃ.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु।
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
="shivsomashekhar, post: 4472738, member: 56157"]Attack?

Namaste,

Yes that is how it was seen by the early Samajis.

If I may ask, which Indologist insisted that Sayana's way was the only interpretation or the only correct interpretation?

H.H Wilson is one who copies Sayana almost entirely, plus Max Muller also comes to mind, it was believed by Swami Dayananda that only allowing for one type of interpretation was akin to insisting on the validity of that one interpretation over others.

I am confused. If the problem is that the Indologists are wrong because they used Sayana's interpretation......,

No you may have misunderstood me, the contention (By the Swami and later Arya Samajis) is not that Sayanas interpretations are "WRONG", but that these are not the "ONLY", interpretations available of the Veda Samhita, But there are many instances that the Arya Samajis have pointed some inconsistencies with Sayana, one such claim is that Sayana believed that the Samhitas are Apurushay and therefore no human history could be read into them, but then translates many Suktas using Puranic and even Brahmana stories, there is more in Swami Dayananda's Rikvedabhashyabhumika and Satyartha Prakasha if you which to read his work.

It should be noted here that Sayana (14th Century) was Vidyarana's* brother and therefore his commentaries are from an Advaita background. Owning to the fact that Advaita has always been the dominant Vedanta tradition, if Indologists had to pick a source commentary, Sayana's would be the most likely.

That is the same mentality that is/was being challenged by Arya Samaj and Swami Dayananda himself, now im no expert in their history but am a avid supporter of their Vadic stance.

Dhaynavad
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Well, even in their defense of Hinduism Swami Dayananda and Aurobindo distorted the meaning of Vedas. Distortions cannot be fought with distortions. 'Satyamevajayate nanritam'.

I don't agree to this, the same charge can be placed against Wilson, Muller ect, only instead of defense it is in offence of Hinduism. or Tilak?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I do not understand your point. Do you mean something like "all is fair in love and war"? On the other hand, I believe that even in defense we cannot take recourse to falsehood.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Not really Aup ji, we perform at least twice a day - called agnihotra, and more at times, which is quite frequent like dvādaśis, pradoṣa, saṅkramaṇa, caturthis, during two-navarātris, well even the daily-twice śoḍaṣopacāra pūja is comprised entirely of vaidika mantras.
Now you do not expect today's Hindus to spend so much time on rituals. They have other things in life to care for. My grandfather used to spend more than half an hour on 'homa' in the morning. But times have changed. I remain a Hindu without such long rituals. One has to understand the core and follow 'dharma', that is all that is necessary.

Are Vishnu's avataras mentioned in RigVeda? What about Shiva, Ganesha, Subramanya, Adi Shakti? Are they mentioned in Vedas? Should we stop worshiping all these Gods and Goddesses? Are the people who do not do the rituals as you do and just bow to their deities for five minutes in the morning/evening, not Hindus? Hinduism is clearly NOT JUST VEDIC. It includes much more.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Where exactly is Advaita mentioned in RigVeda? Genuine question.
:) An interesting question. Leave out the Upanishads and the later Vedas (the Vedics will object :)), where there are many mentions. Trying to find in the oldest book, RigVeda. Here is one:

यो नः पिता जनिता यो विधाता धामानि वेद भुवनानिविश्वा l
यो देवानां नामधा एक एव तं सम्प्रश्नम्भुवना यन्त्यन्या ll
Yo naḥ pitā janitā yo vidhātā dhāmāni veda bhuvanāniviśvā l
yo devānāṃ nāmadhā eka eva taṃ sampraśnambhuvanā yantyanyā ll

Father who made us, he who, as Disposer, knows all races and all things existing,
Even he alone, the Deities' narne-giver, him other beings seek for information.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10082.htm, Verse 3

Other sutras dedicated to Vishvakarman may also have similar views, I need to check. However the most famous is Hiranyagarbha sutra:

हिरण्यगर्भः समवर्तताग्रे भूतस्य जातः पतिरेकासीत l
स दाधार पर्थिवीं दयामुतेमां कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ll
Hiraṇyagharbhaḥ samavartatāghre bhūtasya jātaḥ patirekaāsīt l
sa dādhāra pṛthivīṃ dyāmutemāṃ kasmai devāyahaviṣā vidhema ll

In the beginning rose Hiranyagarbha, born Only Lord of all created beings.
He fixed and holds up this earth and heaven. What God shall we adore with our oblation?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10121.htm, Verse 1

All Hindu rituals (that I have seen or participated) seem to begin with this verse.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
I do not understand your point. Do you mean something like "all is fair in love and war"? On the other hand, I believe that even in defense we cannot take recourse to falsehood.

Namaste,

No that is not what i mean, I shall try to expand without loosing the essence of what im trying to convey, when you claim that in "defense of Hinduism Swami Dayananda and Shri Aurobindo have distorted" the meaning of the Vedas in their translations and interpretations, to me you are suggesting that their version is incorrect somehow, then i can also say that Wilson, Muller and Griffith and other indologists in their misunderstanding and sometimes blatant disrespect of Hinduism have also distorted the meaning of the Vedas to suit their personal agendas, and also i can claim that due to the unquestioned acceptance of a Aryan peoples/Race/language assumption the great Indian patriot Tilak has also distorted the meaning of the Vedas to reach his desired outcome. Now in both our assertions we have to assume that Me and You both have a TRUE standardized universal version of the meaning of the Vedas to make such claims, which we don't have and therefore both our claims are valid and invalid at the same time.

Dhanyavad
 
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