Difficult questions for Jews and Christians.

[Simplelogic]

Why the first century? Is that the convenient date to base your belief around Jesus?

All the way from 586 BCE to 140 BCE Israel was under occupation. Sometimes bad and sometimes good occupation.

Then from 140 BCE till 37 BCE it wasn't only to end up as a client Kingdom of Rome and then a Roman province.


Why cherrypick the fall of the second Temple? Why not the first?
Perhaps we missed the Moshiach in 586 BCE. Would make sense because we lost the one and only first Temple and everything which was inside it. Contrary to the empty second Temple.

Perhaps the Moshiach was some Jew in 586 BCE. Makes more sense than him being Jesus.

First off..there is no such thing as "good occupation".

No cherry picking. I have addressed the Babylonian exile and the reasons for it many times. When Israel learns the way of the nations around them, they lose sight of YHVH. Israel even got to the point of offering their own children on fires to Molech!! The reasons for the Babylonian exile are clear in the scriptures. This exile lasted 70 years.

Here is the true question. If Israel got 70 years of diaspora for these evil sins, as well as ignoring the Torah…what could have been the reason for a 2000 year diaspora?? My question is still valid.

Please note that I commend the Jewish people for the rejection of Christianity and all its sects. This movement which started in Antioch truly taught against the Torah and the Jewish people. But what if a prophet came and taught pure Torah/repentance to the people. What if the religious leaders rejected this man because he was exposing their false power hold on the people?? What if a clever benjamite came in after him and turned him into a pagan sun god hybrid?? What if this "clever benjamite" was actually prophesied to do exactly that in the Torah!!

What if Israel rejected the ONE call back to true Torah observance?

 

[Simplelogic]

I was actually referring more to the author of the piece to which you linked.



I don't think it has anything to do with how we have been approaching God and Torah per se. I think it has more to do with actually learning Torah, observing mitzvot, and putting into practice what we have been taught.

The Rabbis tell us that the Second Temple was lost because of sinat chinam (baseless hatred, vicious intolerance); by extension, our inability to rein in and refrain from sinat chinam even amongst ourselves is what has driven us into Exile and kept us there.

I think that really controlling and freeing ourselves from sinat chinam-- probably, as Rav Kook taught, through pathways of ahavat chinam, unconditional love and tolerance-- will be a major set of steps on the road to bringing the moshiach and ending the Exile. But I think the moshiach isn't going to come until we have achieved-- or largely achieved-- tikkun olam (the amending/repair of the world), not just amongst the People Israel but among all nations.

I am firmly of the school of thought that holds that the moshiach is a leader who inaugurates a messianic era and leads us in it, not a leader who brings us to a messianic age and causes it to come about. When we have conquered sinat chinam, made peace with our enemies, helped bring about endings to war, poverty, famine, plagues, homelessness, oppression, intolerance, and so forth, then we will have proven that we are worthy of a messianic age, and the moshiach will come to help us organize and to lead us as we rebuild the Temple, reconstitute the Sanhedrin, and dedicate ourselves to renewed spirituality and living in a world guided by the principles of Torah.

Interesting take….stills seems a bit complicated. This one is much more simple:


1“So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,2and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, 3then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4“If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5“The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
6“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7“The LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8“And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. 9“Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. Deut 30 1:10

 

[Levite]

First off..there is no such thing as "good occupation".

No cherry picking. I have addressed the Babylonian exile and the reasons for it many times. When Israel learns the way of the nations around them, they lose sight of YHVH. Israel even got to the point of offering their own children on fires to Molech!! The reasons for the Babylonian exile are clear in the scriptures. This exile lasted 70 years.

Here is the true question. If Israel got 70 years of diaspora for these evil sins, as well as ignoring the Torah…what could have been the reason for a 2000 year diaspora?? My question is still valid.

Please note that I commend the Jewish people for the rejection of Christianity and all its sects. This movement which started in Antioch truly taught against the Torah and the Jewish people. But what if a prophet came and taught pure Torah/repentance to the people. What if the religious leaders rejected this man because he was exposing their false power hold on the people?? What if a clever benjamite came in after him and turned him into a pagan sun god hybrid?? What if this "clever benjamite" was actually prophesied to do exactly that in the Torah!!

What if Israel rejected the ONE call back to true Torah observance?

True Torah observance doesn't include rejecting the Oral Torah.

The age of prophets ended long before Jesus showed up. He wasn't a prophet.

Jesus did none of the things the moshiach is supposed to do, plus the moshiach isn't supposed to be a heretic.

Jesus was just one more wannabe messiah in an age full of wannabe messiahs. He was nothing special or unique.

He should've remained in Rabbi Yehoshua's yeshiva and not rejected the Oral Torah or made false claims to be the moshiach. Then today we might be reading teachings of Rabbi Yeshu in the Talmud, and he would be relevant to Judaism in some way.

 

[Simplelogic]

True Torah observance doesn't include rejecting the Oral Torah.

The age of prophets ended long before Jesus showed up. He wasn't a prophet.

Jesus did none of the things the moshiach is supposed to do, plus the moshiach isn't supposed to be a heretic.

Jesus was just one more wannabe messiah in an age full of wannabe messiahs. He was nothing special or unique.

He should've remained in Rabbi Yehoshua's yeshiva and not rejected the Oral Torah or made false claims to be the moshiach. Then today we might be reading teachings of Rabbi Yeshu in the Talmud, and he would be relevant to Judaism in some way.

Proof of the Oral Law - Nehemia's WallNehemia's Wall

 

[Levite]

Proof of the Oral Law - Nehemia's WallNehemia's Wall

I am assuming you posted a link to an idiotic Karaite blog piece because you, like other Jesus followers, can offer no good reason as to why Judaism-- which has been solidly Rabbinic for two thousand years-- should reject teachings that draw on old oral traditions, and which have successfully shaped Judaism into a vibrant path of Torah, in favor of the teachings of one dead heretic who did nothing but inspire another religion.

 

[Flankerl]

First off..there is no such thing as "good occupation".

Of course there is such a thing.
Under the Achaemenid Empire we were allowed to move back to Israel and began to rebuild the Temple.
There is a reason why Cyrus is seen as a Moshiach.

What if Israel rejected the ONE call back to true Torah observance?

And that should have been your Jesus? You know just because you give him a Hebrew name doesn't change the fact that everything you know about the guy is out of books which Gentile-Hellenistic Christians wrote and later selected.

Here is the true question. If Israel got 70 years of diaspora for these evil sins, as well as ignoring the Torah…what could have been the reason for a 2000 year diaspora?? My question is still valid.

Perhaps Hashem is mad that we didn't stone him.

I could relate to that.

 

[Simplelogic]

I find it interesting that the OP really slammed Christianity….not Judaism. Ye

I am assuming you posted a link to an idiotic Karaite blog piece because you, like other Jesus followers, can offer no good reason as to why Judaism-- which has been solidly Rabbinic for two thousand years-- should reject teachings that draw on old oral traditions, and which have successfully shaped Judaism into a vibrant path of Torah, in favor of the teachings of one dead heretic who did nothing but inspire another religion.

2000 years of Rabbinic literature. Not the best 2000 years of Israel's history

I am assuming you posted a link to an idiotic Karaite blog piece because you, like other Jesus followers, can offer no good reason as to why Judaism-- which has been solidly Rabbinic for two thousand years-- should reject teachings that draw on old oral traditions, and which have successfully shaped Judaism into a vibrant path of Torah, in favor of the teachings of one dead heretic who did nothing but inspire another religion.

Yes…a vibrant 2000 year old path of diaspora and suffering. Might want to rethink that one.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think the diaspora has been good for the rest of the world. We have gotten good out of it. Until this 'Tikkun olam' thing happens I'd rather not end the diaspora. Is it really a bad thing?

 

[Tarheeler]

First off..there is no such thing as "good occupation".

No cherry picking. I have addressed the Babylonian exile and the reasons for it many times. When Israel learns the way of the nations around them, they lose sight of YHVH. Israel even got to the point of offering their own children on fires to Molech!! The reasons for the Babylonian exile are clear in the scriptures. This exile lasted 70 years.

Here is the true question. If Israel got 70 years of diaspora for these evil sins, as well as ignoring the Torah…what could have been the reason for a 2000 year diaspora?? My question is still valid.

Please note that I commend the Jewish people for the rejection of Christianity and all its sects. This movement which started in Antioch truly taught against the Torah and the Jewish people. But what if a prophet came and taught pure Torah/repentance to the people. What if the religious leaders rejected this man because he was exposing their false power hold on the people?? What if a clever benjamite came in after him and turned him into a pagan sun god hybrid?? What if this "clever benjamite" was actually prophesied to do exactly that in the Torah!!

What if Israel rejected the ONE call back to true Torah observance?

Well, at least you've stopped beating around the bush.

 

[Simplelogic]

Well, at least you've stopped beating around the bush.

My personal beliefs are plain and up front in every post. Discussion of Torah observance and repentance is the heart of the matter. I could care less if other Jews hold the same opinions as me regarding Yeshua. Nor do I believe Jews need to have the same beliefs concerning Yeshua as I do. Repentance and turning to Torah is the whole point.

I am willing to discuss the mainstream Jewish approach to Torah. I would also like to add that I am not against the Talmud. I simply don't believe that ANY man has the ability to change Biblical law. I also believe that many of the added commands have created a false perception of Torah to many Jews. This is part of the reason why I believe many Jews decide not to follow Torah. It has become an impossible law which dictates what a man must do every second of the day…if one follows it strictly. Everything from tying your shoes in the morning to taking a crap is carefully outlined in the Talmud. This is NOT the intent of our Fathers commandments. They are not a burden and they are a delight.

That being said. I have spent my life helping and assisting the Jewish people. I have even fought alongside the state of Israel. I have condemned Christian replacement theologies (Pauline doctrine) and any mindset which seeks to usurp the authority from the Jewish people. I have given up much of the doctrines that I was taught since childhood. I realize that I probably look like every other "messianic" who tries to convert Jews to Yeshua. I don't, and I actually call out people who do. They believe that Jews who don't recognize Yeshua are lost…like Christians. I believe that anyone who is humble and seeking Hashem with sincerity is already "saved".

I do believe that Paul's Christianity is completely opposed to every concept Yeshua taught. This I am willing to prove. I realize this may not make a bit of difference to you. Thats fine. My true concern is elevating Torah and repentance. It does seem like a travesty that the most famous (Torah observant) Jew in history is shrouded in pagan sun god concepts which he never taught or believed in.