Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

[Quiddity]

I don't think that the scriptures are clear either way on the issue of the Trinity. My belief that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost comes from my belief in latter-day prophets who have given testimony to the nature of God. I can see how someone who was reading the bible could interpret the scriptures in other ways.

Jonny, to be fair there are truths you accept as true that are unclear or flat out not there. So what would cause you to discount the Trinity? What makes you accept the Bible for example? An apostastized Church produced the book you read....

 

[john63]

I'm very sorry that you feel compelled to run someone down for merely complimenting someone else on their kindness. Thats sad.

Yes, thank you searcher63 for feeling sorry for me for "running someone down" while running me down. Let's see....how do you spell that...H-Y-P-O-C-R...well you know what I mean. I just love people who feel it's their duty to speak for someone else.

 

[Katzpur]

What makes you accept the Bible for example? An apostastized Church produced the book you read....

Unless I'm mistaken, the books of the Bible were written prior to any apostasy. But it was very nice of you folks to bind them all up in a book for us all. (And I mean that sincerely.)

 

[Quiddity]

Unless I'm mistaken, the books of the Bible were written prior to any apostasy. But it was very nice of you folks to bind them all up in a book for us all. (And I mean that sincerely.)

Oh really? Then why do you not accept various quotes I have shown you of the Trinity that was hundreds of years BEFORE the Bible was assembled? I'm very curious of this contradiction. I await your clarification.

~Victor

 

[michel]

Hi Searcher63

Thanks for the complement.

To do in-depth research on the Trinity, go to:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi John63

Those scriptures you quoted:

Have nothing to do with a trinity, so get real.

Go read the book by Dr. Anthony Buzzard,

The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound
by Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting
Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Iris, i think it is highly unChristian of you to tell someone to 'Get Real' - I could point you straight away to:- http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/22645062df6dfb65a19afeb4da09e526.html

The catholic doctrine of a Trinity, proved by above a hundred short and clear arguments, expressed in the terms of the Holy Scripture ... and digested under the four following titles: 1. The divinity of Christ. 2. The divinity of the Holy Ghost. 3. The plurality of persons. 4. The Trinity in unity : with a few reflections ... upon some of the Arian writers, particularly Dr. S. Clarke: to which is added, A letter to the common people, in answer to some popular arguments against the Trinity

and I could say to you that it is you who should 'get real', but, of course, I wouldn't do so.

 

[benjosh]

Hi, Jonny,

WARNING NOT SUITABLE FOR ALL AUDIENCES, MATURE PEOPLE ONLY


I am surprised at your response on the trinity.

Thanks for this information. It is interesting to read about the history of these teachings. I have never seen a scripture that has convinced me that the trinity doctrine was biblical.

I am an older guy so I am going to kind of take you under my wing on this one. . . . . . . . if you let me.

One of the great things about the restoration through Joseph Smith was the extra-biblical scriptures. They are not contradictory from that which had gone before (Bible OT/NT) but they expand on THEM, shining more light on the subject.
I'm going to use RLDS references but you will find the same in LDS versions.
I am not saying anything here in a critical tone. This is for your own spiritual growth.

You said,

I have never seen a scripture that has convinced me that the trinity doctrine was biblical.

I say,

In the latter day scriptures Jesus clearly teaches the trinity. And, once you understand it in the latter day scriptures, its presence in the Bible will be very obvious. In fact the teaching of the trinity was originally in the Torah as well.

You who may be following this post and have an allergic reaction to latter day scriptures may want to tune out. If you think this will corrupt you. Or if you are too weak in your faith please go no further. (I mean this sincerely, do not raise your blood pressure if these views are too much to consider in a calm way.)

The testimony of latter day scriptures is that Jesus Christ speaks to the Gentiles and Israel through the Holy Ghost. Section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants is an instance where Jesus Christ gives testimony concerning the Book of Mormon, it's doctrine and purpose.

Jesus said,

10d. And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers;

10e. yea, and this was their faith, that my gospel which I gave unto them,
that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren, the
Lamanites, and also, all that had become Lamanites, because of their
dissensions.
11a. Now this is not all, their faith in their prayers was, that this gospel
should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should
possess this land;
11b. and thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers,
that whosoever should believe in this gospel, in this land, might have
eternal life;
11c. yea, that it might be free unto all of whatsoever nation, kindred,
tongue, or people, they may be.
12. And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers, will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up.

You will notice that Jesus said this record (B of M) was not to destroy (take away, compete with) what they (Christians in America) had already received.

Jesus then acknowledges that he does have a Christian church in America.

13b. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church; therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven;

An important thing to note here is that Jesus said this before April 6, 1830. The day the Church of Christ (LDS/RLDS) was established according to civil law in the state of New York.

Let's look at 13b again.

I do not say this to destroy my church

Jesus is talking about the intent of the message contained in the Book of Mormon. He says the B of M is meant to build up not tear down.

If this was the purpose of the book why did it cause such division?
The following verse holds the answer. It was because within the Christian church there were those who said they were serving Christ but were serving themselves.

13c. but it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments, but build up churches unto themselves, to get gain; yea, and all those that do wickedly, and build up the kingdom of the Devil;
13d. yea, verily, verily I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb,
and cause to tremble and shake to the center.
14a. Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I came unto my own,
and my own received me not.
14b. I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness
comprehendeth it not.

I've said all this just to set up the main point of this post. Which is actually appropriately three truths in one.
One. The Bible teaches the trinity.
Two. The Book of Mormon teaches the trinity.
Three. Neither the Book of Mormon nor the Bible teach the trinity because truth is made known by the Holy Ghost through writings verified in the hearts of believers. Revelation is the foundation of Jesus Christ's church and it may manifest in the Gentiles and Israel at the same time.
Here is the simplest explanation of Jesus Christ's church you will ever find.

16a. Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church;
16b. whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore, he is not of my church.

The simple truth of Jesus' words just quoted is currently buried beneath the rubble of the infighting between Christianity and Mormonism and all religions for dominance as Christ's sole respresentative on earth.

Jesus stated a truth that applies to all churches.
When we and our churches say we follow him and don't keep his commandments we twist scriptures to support our religion at the expense of keeping His commandments.

15d. yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention,
concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for
they do wrest the Scriptures, and do not understand them;

What did Jesus teach about the trinity in the Book of Mormon?

3 Nephi 5:
11 And it came to pass that He stretched forth His hand and spake unto the people, saying: “Behold, I Am Jesus Christ of which the prophets testified that should come into the world; 12 And behold, I Am the light and the life of the world; And I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given Me, And have glorified the Father in taking upon Me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.”

“And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying, ‘Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.’

“And after this manner shall ye baptize in My name. “For behold, verily I say unto you that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one; And I Am in the Father and the Father in Me and the Father and I are one;

And this is My doctrine and it is the doctrine
which the Father hath given unto Me—
33 And I bear record of the Father, And the Father beareth record of Me, And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and Me— And I bear record that the Father commandeth all men everywhere to repent and believe in Me; 34 And whoso believeth in Me and is baptized, the same shall be saved, And they are they which shall inherit the kingdom of God; 35 And whoso believeth not in Me and is not baptized shall be damned! 36 “Verily, verily I say unto you that this is My doctrine, And I bear record of it from the Father; And whoso believeth in Me, believeth in the Father also; 37 And unto him will the Father bear record of Me, For He will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost; 38 And thus will the Father bear record of Me; And the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and Me, For the Father and I and the Holy Ghost are one. 39 “And again I say unto you, Ye must repent,
and become as a little child,
and be baptized in My name,
Or ye can in no wise receive these things!

BenJosh

 

[alexander garcia]

trinity is a lie, here is one of the things that are used to show it Matt.28, in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit. One thing that people should do is get a dictionary and find out what words mean. Father is a title not a name! Holy spirit is a title not a name! So unless you can find a name in scripture for the spirit you can not obey this, and befor you go to the titles of comforter and all the other titles these are TITLES NOT NAMES! So try and find a name.

 

[Buttons*]

trinity is a lie, here is one of the things that are used to show it Matt.28, in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit. One thing that people should do is get a dictionary and find out what words mean. Father is a title not a name! Holy spirit is a title not a name! So unless you can find a name in scripture for the spirit you can not obey this, and befor you go to the titles of comforter and all the other titles these are TITLES NOT NAMES! So try and find a name.

....Yeshua?

 

[James the Persian]

trinity is a lie, here is one of the things that are used to show it Matt.28, in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit. One thing that people should do is get a dictionary and find out what words mean. Father is a title not a name! Holy spirit is a title not a name! So unless you can find a name in scripture for the spirit you can not obey this, and befor you go to the titles of comforter and all the other titles these are TITLES NOT NAMES! So try and find a name.

But if someone says 'open up in the name of the law', do they mean that there's actually someone called 'the law' that wants you to open the door, or do they mean that they are there representing the law of the land? Your argument is way too simplistic and linguistically naive to hold much water.

James

 

[iris89]

Hi Alexander Garcia

With regard your fine comment,

trinity is a lie, here is one of the things that are used to show it Matt.28, in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit. One thing that people should do is get a dictionary and find out what words mean. Father is a title not a name! Holy spirit is a title not a name! So unless you can find a name in scripture for the spirit you can not obey this, and befor you go to the titles of comforter and all the other titles these are TITLES NOT NAMES! So try and find a name.

You are 'right on.' You should go to the following and learn even more with respect what you are speaking about and how correct you are.

http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1141851947&page=1

Please be so kind as to let me know how much you enjoy it.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[sojourner]

I find this thread really interesting. What we seem to have is an argument drawn across these lines:

ANTI TRINITARIAN:
*An "independent Bible Researcher," a JW, who uses the King James for research,
instead of a translation with greater scholastic ingtegrity.
*Two or three LDS individuals, who argue using extra-Biblical writings and theology,
and who believe that the trinitarian churches are "apostate."
*A Jew whose acitivity in this forum is historically less than amicable toward the Christian viewpoint.
*An individual of unknown religious affiliation.
**These people, two groups of which, all come from non-traditional communities,and all of which claim to be privy to "The Truth," employ proof-texting to support their claims to "The Truth."


PRO TRINITARIAN:
*A person who is listed as "Christian."
*An Orthodox Christian.
*A person who is very sympathetic to the RC viewpoint.
**These people come from traditional communities, two of which claim apostolic Succession. Their argument is based upon tradition, church teaching, and scripture.

The Pro group, claiming common roots to the Apostolic faith, proclaims a doctrine that has been basic to the Christian faith for centuries, and is arguably Biblically supported.

The anti group, claiming disparate roots, and in great disagreement with each other on other issues, disclaims this basic doctrine on the basis that they know "The Truth." Their position is both arguably Biblically supported, along with later, extra-Biblical influence.

Interesting.

 

[iris89]

Hi sojourner vbmenu_register("postmenu_375421", true);

Nice post. Now to know the facts, go to the following:

http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=post&thread=1133366068&page=1 on Counterfeit vs. genuine Christians – an entire thread on the subject.

And,

http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1135723580&page=1 On Mainstream Christianity

And,

http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=belief&action=display&thread=1137232810 discourse Belief In The Trinity A Distinguishing Feature

And,

http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1140448273&page=1 Discourse on the Two Paths of Christianity

Your Friend in christ Iris89

 

[sojourner]

Hi sojourner vbmenu_register("postmenu_375421", true);

Nice post. Now to know the facts, go to the following:

http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=post&thread=1133366068&page=1 on Counterfeit vs. genuine Christians – an entire thread on the subject.

And,

http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1135723580&page=1 On Mainstream Christianity

And,

http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=belief&action=display&thread=1137232810 discourse Belief In The Trinity A Distinguishing Feature

And,

http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1140448273&page=1 Discourse on the Two Paths of Christianity

Your Friend in christ Iris89

I'm well acquainted with the facts, as they have been presented. Thank you.

 

[barnabus]

C.S. Lewis' essay, "The Three Personal God," is a good rationale of the Trinity.(Yes, one exists.)

"An ordingary simple Christian kneels down to say his prayers. He is trying to get into touch with God. But if he is a Christian he knows that what is prompting him to pray is also God: God, so to speak, inside him. But he also knows that all his real knowledge of God comes through Christ, the Man who was God-that Christ is standing beside him, helping him to pray, praying for him. You see what is happening? God is the thing to which he is praying- the goal he is tryng to reach. God is also the thing inside him which is pushing him on- the motive force. God is also the road or bridge along which he is being pushed to that goal. So that the whole threefold life of the three-personal Being is actually going on in that ordinary little bedroom where an ordinary man is saying his prayers. The man is being caught up into the higher kinds of life- what I call Zoe or spiritual life: he is being pulled into God, by God, while still remaining himself.
And that is how Theology started. People already knew about God in a vague way. Then came a man who claimed to be God; and yet He was not the sort of man you could dismiss as a lunatic. He made them believe Him. They met Him again after they had seen Him killed. And then, after they had been formed into a little society of community, they found God somehow inside them as well: directing them, making them able to do things they could not do before. And when they worked it all out they found they had arrived at the Christian definition of the three-personal God."

 

[sojourner]

C.S. Lewis' essay, "The Three Personal God," is a good rationale of the Trinity.(Yes, one exists.)

"An ordingary simple Christian kneels down to say his prayers. He is trying to get into touch with God. But if he is a Christian he knows that what is prompting him to pray is also God: God, so to speak, inside him. But he also knows that all his real knowledge of God comes through Christ, the Man who was God-that Christ is standing beside him, helping him to pray, praying for him. You see what is happening? God is the thing to which he is praying- the goal he is tryng to reach. God is also the thing inside him which is pushing him on- the motive force. God is also the road or bridge along which he is being pushed to that goal. So that the whole threefold life of the three-personal Being is actually going on in that ordinary little bedroom where an ordinary man is saying his prayers. The man is being caught up into the higher kinds of life- what I call Zoe or spiritual life: he is being pulled into God, by God, while still remaining himself.
And that is how Theology started. People already knew about God in a vague way. Then came a man who claimed to be God; and yet He was not the sort of man you could dismiss as a lunatic. He made them believe Him. They met Him again after they had seen Him killed. And then, after they had been formed into a little society of community, they found God somehow inside them as well: directing them, making them able to do things they could not do before. And when they worked it all out they found they had arrived at the Christian definition of the three-personal God."

I like that. thank you!!! Well put!

 

[lunamoth]

One way I think of the Trinity is that it is like any model used to help us understand a scientific concept. For example, the Theory of Evolution. What is it? Well, it is a model. It uses words and concepts to describe a process by which the diversity of living organisms came to be. It takes into account observations and emprical evidence we gather from the world around us. It is consistent with natural law and the fate of the universe as we understand it. But, it is not a thing in itself, but an expression of reality.

The Trinity is also a model. It takes into account our experience of God and the collected wisdom passed down to us in our Scripture. It is not based upon natural law, but on divine law, which is only understood by the Spirit within us. Like the ToE, you need to start with certain foundational assumptions, such as belief in God and faith in the wisdom expressed in the Bible. But most important of all, it illuminates and extends the nature of our relationship with God, as so simply and beautifully expressed in the passage by CS Lewis above.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[sojourner]

This was clearly a test of loyalty, would Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH) keep his loyalty to Almighty God (YHWH) or not. However, if he were God as per the Trinity doctrine, how could God rebel against himself and be disloyal to himself? [Please explain]

2-question) Let's assume for a moment that Jesus were part of a Godhead, i.e., a Trinity, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God's (YHWH's) own Law required per "And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25 AV) and "And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:19-21, AV).

Remember it was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. Thus the ransom, to be equivalent or in line with God's (YHWH's) justice, had to be strictly an equivalent, i.e., a perfect human, "the last Adam." Therefore, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would equate or satisfy justice, not an incarnation, nor a god-man, but a perfect man, " But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9 AV). How could any part of an almighty Godhead (Trinity) of Father (YHWH) , Son (Jesus), or holy spirit ever be lower than angels? [Please explain]

3-question) Supporters of the Trinity claim that in the case of Jesus, "only-begotten" is different from the dictionary definition of "begetting," that is "to procreate as the father," [Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary]. They claim that in Jesus case it means "a sort of only son relationship without the begetting; however, "Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words." Now does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him? [Please explain]

To answer your original questions:
1) Jesus was FULLY HUMAN, and, according to Trinitarian theology, a distinct person from the Father. When in human form, Jesus taught by example -- a human being faithful to God the Father.

2) Jesus was the fullness of humanity, just as Adam had been created perfectly.

3) Then why does the Nicene Creed say, "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father?" Trinitarian Xy does believe that God begat Jesus, through the work of the Holy Spirit.

I hope these facts help out your research.

 

[michel]

C.S. Lewis' essay, "The Three Personal God," is a good rationale of the Trinity.(Yes, one exists.)

"An ordingary simple Christian kneels down to say his prayers. He is trying to get into touch with God. But if he is a Christian he knows that what is prompting him to pray is also God: God, so to speak, inside him. But he also knows that all his real knowledge of God comes through Christ, the Man who was God-that Christ is standing beside him, helping him to pray, praying for him. You see what is happening? God is the thing to which he is praying- the goal he is tryng to reach. God is also the thing inside him which is pushing him on- the motive force. God is also the road or bridge along which he is being pushed to that goal. So that the whole threefold life of the three-personal Being is actually going on in that ordinary little bedroom where an ordinary man is saying his prayers. The man is being caught up into the higher kinds of life- what I call Zoe or spiritual life: he is being pulled into God, by God, while still remaining himself.
And that is how Theology started. People already knew about God in a vague way. Then came a man who claimed to be God; and yet He was not the sort of man you could dismiss as a lunatic. He made them believe Him. They met Him again after they had seen Him killed. And then, after they had been formed into a little society of community, they found God somehow inside them as well: directing them, making them able to do things they could not do before. And when they worked it all out they found they had arrived at the Christian definition of the three-personal God."

I agree with the others, that is very good; thank you.

 

[lunamoth]

Ever notice how non-trinitarian types need a really big unabridged dictionary and lots of 'splainin to get their point across? Wouldn't it be easier to just say, well, we see it differently. No need to argue.

Isis, why do you think one's mortal soul would be in danger simply from having a different understanding of their relationship with God than you do? I'm pretty sure no one has the whole picture. Do you really think God is going to grade us on how right we are? Isn't it more important that we just do our best to love God and each other?

The approach taken in the OP of this thread seems quite legalistic to me. Not like the God of love and grace I know.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[michel]

Ever notice how non-trinitarian types need a really big unabridged dictionary and lots of 'splainin to get their point across? Wouldn't it be easier to just say, well, we see it differently. No need to argue.

Isis, why do you think one's mortal soul would be in danger simply from having a different understanding of their relationship with God than you do? I'm pretty sure no one has the whole picture. Do you really think God is going to grade us on how right we are? Isn't it more important that we just do our best to love God and each other?

The approach taken in the OP of this thread seems quite legalistic to me. Not like the God of love and grace I know.

peace,
lunamoth

So incredibly well said....................

One of the things that has really surprised me (since joining a Religious Forum - this being the first one where I became a member), was the vast array of 'brand names'. The feeling of "I have it right!" shouts, replied to with a "No you are wrong, my religion is more correct than yours" actually upsets me.

It is as though we are all fighting to get to the top of a mountain............yet, the summit is the same, whichever track you take.

The approach taken in the OP of this thread seems quite legalistic to me. Not like the God of love and grace I know.

....such a shame, isn't it?