Discrediting the NT (christian bible)

[CMike]

This was in the christianity folder, but I wanted to add my two cents.

Jews don't try and discredit the christian bible. The christian bible belongs to the christian bible. They can believe whatever they want. It's an entirely different religion.

Jews don't consider it authoritative in any way, since it's not their religion.

The christian bible and the Tanach (five books of Moses, plus prophets and scriptures) are mutually exclusive.

There are intellectually inconsistent.

I think many christians try to twist and pervert the Tanach to fit into their beliefs. However, it doesn't work.

 

[Ingledsva]

This was in the christianity folder, but I wanted to add my two cents.

Jews don't try and discredit the christian bible. The christian bible belongs to the christian bible. They can believe whatever they want. It's an entirely different religion.

Jews don't consider it authoritative in any way, since it's not their religion.

The christian bible and the Tanach (five books of Moses, plus prophets and scriptures) are mutually exclusive.

There are intellectually inconsistent.

I think many christians try to twist and pervert the Tanach to fit into their beliefs. However, it doesn't work.

Yes, that is very apparent in the last couple of debates I've been in.



*

 

[Quirkybird]

In my opinion both the OT and the NT was written by humans, with no input from any deity.

 

[Urban Dharmic Warrior]

In my opinion both the OT and the NT was written by humans, with no input from any deity.

I agree.

With rules, controls and dogma to reinforce the agendas of the day.

However, some parts of it (other than the homophobic, hating stuff) can be inspiring; Jesus is a pretty good dude in it.

But the OT sits alongside Lord of the Rings, for me.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I agree.

With rules, controls and dogma to reinforce the agendas of the day.

However, some parts of it (other than the homophobic, hating stuff) can be inspiring; Jesus is a pretty good dude in it.

But the OT sits alongside Lord of the Rings, for me.

LOL, except LOR had an overall plot! The first 5 indeed tell a story, as do the histories. Unfortunately the stories do not add up to anything worthy of admiration. I find Ecclesiastes to be a true work of art in expressing profound philosophy. But the prophets amount to boogie man stories to scare children. There are recurring themes, but they read more like Brothers Grimm than an epic novel.

 

[CMike]

 

[SkylarHunter]

The christian bible and the Tanach (five books of Moses, plus prophets and scriptures) are mutually exclusive.

There are intellectually inconsistent.

I think many christians try to twist and pervert the Tanach to fit into their beliefs. However, it doesn't work.

Can you explain why do you think the books are inconsistent? Maybe give some examples.

It may be that some people twist and pervert the bible but it would be nice if you could be specific.

 

[CMike]

Sure.

The most important tenent/principle in all of judaism/Torah/Tanach is that there is only one G-D. That G-D has no human manifastations. That you may only worship the one G-D, and not to worship any other being form, under any circumstances for any reason.

I know christians will says jesus is G-D. However, that doesn't work. I think they would be hard pressed to state that jesus and G-D are exactly the same being.

Christianity by definiton is centered around jesus.

Worshipping jesus is in stark contradiction of what G-D told the jews emphatically in numerous passages in the Torah.

Also in the Torah G-D says that the laws can not be added to nor subtract from, and they are forever.

Christians redid the Torah to create their own scriptures. That alone would make it mutually exclusive.

That said I am not discrediting the christian bible. I am just stating that the bibles are mutually exclusive. You can really only believe in one or the other if you are intellectually honest.

Also the jesus died for everyone is also contradictory to the Torah. Human sacrifice is not allowed. And we are responsible for getting forgiveness for our sins. Even if jesus did sacrifice himself (which he was caught and executed) it would have no bearing whatsoever on our sins.

G-D stated how to get forgiveness from sins. It certainly isn't based on someone else dying.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Sure.

I know christians will says jesus is G-D. However, that doesn't work. I think they would be hard pressed to state that jesus and G-D are exactly the same being.

Worshipping jesus is in stark contradiction of what G-D told the jews emphatically in numerous passages in the Torah.

Also the jesus died for everyone is also contradictory to the Torah. Human sacrifice is not allowed. And we are responsible for getting forgiveness for our sins. Even if jesus did sacrifice himself (which he was caught and executed) it would have no bearing whatsoever on our sins.

G-D stated how to get forgiveness from sins. It certainly isn't based on someone else dying.

I agree with you on the first point. Jesus and God are not the same person, and I think that is a clear misinterpretation of the Bible done by some (not all) christian religions. This does not appear on the NT, nor did Jesus or his disciples intend to contradict the Shema in the OT.
In fact, the New Catholic Encyclopedia states that "the formulation of one God in 3 persons was not fully assimilated into christian life prior to the end of the 4th century" (long after the NT was finished).
In fact we can see in Mathew 26:39 where Jesus uses the expression "my father" in a prayer. He was not praying to himself (that wouldn't make any sense) and it is very clear in several parts of the NT that the father and Jesus are not the same person.
The Holy Spirit is not even a person, it's God's active force. This is very clear in the texts where it says that people were "filled" with holy spirit or "anointed" with it. These references don't fit a person.

As for Jesus dying for us, the Bible says that Jesus gave his perfect life for us in replacement for the one Adam lost. Since all the descendants of Adam were imperfect, they couldn't make that sacrifice because it wouldn't be the same. This sacrifice is very different from the ones in the OT.
However, since the Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, I can understand where you are coming from. Maybe we can discuss this further another time.

 

[truthBtold]

Can you explain why do you think the books are inconsistent? Maybe give some examples.

It may be that some people twist and pervert the bible but it would be nice if you could be specific.

HHMM..A loving god would not do this:.....God sends forth two bears to kill forty-two*children*for making fun of Elisha’s bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24). Why would the omnibenevolent God feel the necessity to have two bears viciously maul little children for acting like…children? This is supposed to be the same “wonderful” and “loving” God who promises people eternal life..

 

[Pastek]

As for Jesus dying for us, the Bible says that Jesus gave his perfect life for us in replacement for the one Adam lost.

Which verse, please.

 

[CMike]

As for Jesus dying for us, the Bible says that Jesus gave his perfect life for us in replacement for the one Adam lost. Since all the descendants of Adam were imperfect, they couldn't make that sacrifice because it wouldn't be the same. This sacrifice is very different from the ones in the OT.
However, since the Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, I can understand where you are coming from. Maybe we can discuss this further another time.

That is once again a contradiction from what G-D told the jews in the Torah.

Other than G-D there is no other being that is perfect. He stated in numerous passages that there is only him. Therefore, by making jesus a god it contradicts the Torah.

Here are some of the passages.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

O Lord, are You not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One… (Habakkuk 1:12)

I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere Him. (Ecclesiastes, 3:14)

 

[CMike]

I agree with you on the first point. Jesus and God are not the same person, and I think that is a clear misinterpretation of the Bible done by some (not all) christian religions. This does not appear on the NT, nor did Jesus or his disciples intend to contradict the Shema in the OT.
In fact, the New Catholic Encyclopedia states that "the formulation of one God in 3 persons was not fully assimilated into christian life prior to the end of the 4th century" (long after the NT was finished).
In fact we can see in Mathew 26:39 where Jesus uses the expression "my father" in a prayer. He was not praying to himself (that wouldn't make any sense) and it is very clear in several parts of the NT that the father and Jesus are not the same person.
The Holy Spirit is not even a person, it's God's active force. This is very clear in the texts where it says that people were "filled" with holy spirit or "anointed" with it. These references don't fit a person.

It seems to me as well pretty clear that jesus and god are not exactly the same in christianity.

 

[gilligan8914]

Marcion of Sinope found the vengeful, wrathful, violent God of the old testament to be incompatible with the all loving peaceful God of Jesus. Gnostics also separated the old testament God from the NT God. They referred to the OT God as the demiurge.

 

[steeltoes]

The Old Testament is about the Father, the New Testament is about the Son. Who knows, maybe God will have a Daughter next.

 

[CMike]

lol

 

[Thana]

Sure.

The most important tenent/principle in all of judaism/Torah/Tanach is that there is only one G-D. That G-D has no human manifastations. That you may only worship the one G-D, and not to worship any other being form, under any circumstances for any reason.

I know christians will says jesus is G-D. However, that doesn't work. I think they would be hard pressed to state that jesus and G-D are exactly the same being.

Christianity by definiton is centered around jesus.

Worshipping jesus is in stark contradiction of what G-D told the jews emphatically in numerous passages in the Torah.

Also in the Torah G-D says that the laws can not be added to nor subtract from, and they are forever.

Christians redid the Torah to create their own scriptures. That alone would make it mutually exclusive.

That said I am not discrediting the christian bible. I am just stating that the bibles are mutually exclusive. You can really only believe in one or the other if you are intellectually honest.

Also the jesus died for everyone is also contradictory to the Torah. Human sacrifice is not allowed. And we are responsible for getting forgiveness for our sins. Even if jesus did sacrifice himself (which he was caught and executed) it would have no bearing whatsoever on our sins.

G-D stated how to get forgiveness from sins. It certainly isn't based on someone else dying.

I disagree with the two books being mutually exclusive, You saying that is pretty much dismissing the faith of all Messianic Jews

I do believe they're one in the same, And believing that is not contradictory or being intellectually dishonest.

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

 

[CMike]

I disagree with the two books being mutually exclusive, You saying that is pretty much dismissing the faith of all Messianic Jews

I do believe they're one in the same, And believing that is not contradictory or being intellectually dishonest.

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

"
"Messianic jews" are called christians.

 

[psychoslice]

In my opinion both the OT and the NT was written by humans, with no input from any deity.

I also agree with you.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Which verse, please.

It's not only one verse.

In Genesis we read that Adam and Eve rebelled against their creator and therefore lost their source of life becoming imperfect mortals. All their descendants inherited their imperfection. However God decided to send someone to undo the consequences of sin as stated in Genesis 3:15 "will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."
Later on God made a covenant with Abraham and promised him that the savior would come through his line of descent (Genesis 17:19).
The arrival of the Messiah was mentioned in different parts of the old testament such as Isaiah 7:14, Daniel 9:25,26 and Micah 5:2.
You can find scriptures about Jesus being the savior in Luke 2:11, 2 Tim 1:10, Titus 1:4, Romans 8:1,2, John 1:29, etc.
Of course this only makes sense to people who believe that Jesus was the son of God and the Messiah.