Discrimination in the Catholic Church

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have nothing against gay people. We all are sinners. You can believe me or not. I do not care.

I'm surprised by this, because it was a similar attitude that changed my mind about the Catholic Church and the role it will play in the up ringing of my (future) children. I went from thinking that it wasn't that bad a place in which to raise a child to being dead-set against it having any more influence than absolutely necessary.

I've promised to allow my wife to see to the "Catholic upbringing" of my children, but in my view, the bare minimum of this commitment is to allow my children to receive baptism and First Communion... and that's it. And I regret having promised to allow that much.

If this means that our children don't become Catholics later in life, that's just fine by me.

 

[sojourner]

It means the person himself is not hated, but his actions are hated. The Homosexual is a sinner when he commits homosexual acts. Just like I am a sinner when I commit sexual sins.

Well, then that would make you a "fornicator." And a "fornicator" is a sinner. A "homosexual" is one who engages in homosexual acts. If a "homosexual" is not a sinner, how can the act be a sin???

You have failed to answer that question time and again.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Well, then that would make you a "fornicator." And a "fornicator" is a sinner. A "homosexual" is one who engages in homosexual acts. If a "homosexual" is not a sinner, how can the act be a sin???

You have failed to answer that question time and again.

Because its the act that is the sin. Not the person themself. How do you not get that?

Lets try something else.

What is a sin?

 

[JacobEzra.]

I'm surprised by this, because it was a similar attitude that changed my mind about the Catholic Church and the role it will play in the up ringing of my (future) children. I went from thinking that it wasn't that bad a place in which to raise a child to being dead-set against it having any more influence than absolutely necessary.

I've promised to allow my wife to see to the "Catholic upbringing" of my children, but in my view, the bare minimum of this commitment is to allow my children to receive baptism and First Communion... and that's it. And I regret having promised to allow that much.

If this means that our children don't become Catholics later in life, that's just fine by me.

Im sorry to sound rude, but why are you telling me this? I do not care about your children, they are your children not mine. I do not care if you want the Church to have as little influence on them as possible. Your their father. You guide them however you want.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Im sorry to sound rude, but why are you telling me this? I do not care about your children, they are your children not mine. I do not care if you want the Church to have as little influence on them as possible. Your their father. You guide them however you want.

My point is just that the relevancy of the Catholic Church will be determined in large part by non-Catholics like me, whether it's in choices about raising children or, say, in the political arena when deciding how much of a voice the Pope or the local bishop should be given as an advisor on affairs of the day. If your church is seen in the eyes of non-Catholics as working against the common good, they will stop listening to church representatives, and they'll see the Catholic Church as something to protect people from, not as a positive force.

If you're okay with belonging to a marginal religion that doesn't have relevance to modern life, that's fine by me, but you'd be the first Catholic that I've met to tell me that he feels this way.

 

[sojourner]

Because its the act that is the sin. Not the person themself. How do you not get that?

Lets try something else.

What is a sin?

The act arises from natural impulses naturally placed within the persons, ostensibly by God. People don't engage in sexual acts that are foreign to them. Therefore, how can the act be sinful, if the person who has the natural impulse is not sinful?

 

[sojourner]

Im sorry to sound rude, but why are you telling me this? I do not care about your children, they are your children not mine. I do not care if you want the Church to have as little influence on them as possible. Your their father. You guide them however you want.

"If you cause one of these little ones to stumble..." I don't think that's a proper attitude for the church to take.

 

[JacobEzra.]

My point is just that the relevancy of the Catholic Church will be determined in large part by non-Catholics like me, whether it's in choices about raising children or, say, in the political arena when deciding how much of a voice the Pope or the local bishop should be given as an advisor on affairs of the day. If your church is seen in the eyes of non-Catholics as working against the common good, they will stop listening to church representatives, and they'll see the Catholic Church as something to protect people from, not as a positive force.

If you're okay with belonging to a marginal religion that doesn't have relevance to modern life, that's fine by me, but you'd be the first Catholic that I've met to tell me that he feels this way.

The Church continues to have an influence on a lot of people. Especially thous who belong to the Church that Christ started. It would be against the Church to force you to convert or care. And your not the first to not care. It certainly wont be the first time in history the church has been ignored and hated, and wont be the last.

Id like it for more people to believe. But I know the church will never become just a "marginal religion". And I know she will always be relevant. It takes real disciples of Christ to go against the culture of modern society, fighting against the secularization and attacks. Historic claims that the church and Christ are not relevant for the modern age, mainly because she is against the norms of today. I herd Archbishop Fulton Sheen say while talking about going against the secular culture "Even dead bodies can float downstream, but it takes a real man, a real woman, to swim against the current.".

Just like every time the Church faced scandal, abuse, or accusations of not being "relevant" Christ has called saints to show the way to Christ. As faithful witnesses. There will always be another Pope, another Bishop and another Convert who will be devout and faithful Despite what the society accuses her of.

 

[JacobEzra.]

The act arises from natural impulses naturally placed within the persons, ostensibly by God. People don't engage in sexual acts that are foreign to them. Therefore, how can the act be sinful, if the person who has the natural impulse is not sinful?

We are naturally lustful and yet Christ said that when we look at a women lustfully we commit adultery in our hearts.

If natural impulses are not sins, then how is lusting after women a sin?

You should read more of the Gospel.

 

[JacobEzra.]

"If you cause one of these little ones to stumble..." I don't think that's a proper attitude for the church to take.

Oh yeah. Ill let the Pope know that unless the Chruch start forcing people to raise their children catholic, and if the parent fails to do so, then take the children from them. If not, then the Church is forcing the children to stumble.

As I said, and any normal person will say, I am not the parent. Who am I to say you must give them a Catholic education? Its certainly not my place.

 

[kepha31]

Please understand,
I personally don't give a rats behind what your church says
about anything at all.
I couldn't care less what it does or doesn't change,
because it means nothing at all to the rest of us.
And if people want to be discriminated against,
and ruled over,
it's a wonderful place to go.
I would recommend it highly.

I do feel sorry for the children who grow up in it though.
Whose parents force feed these doctrines on their children.
I say this as a child who grew up in it.
I also say this as a parent
who tried to make of it a way of life for her first child
till the age of 14.
At which point we BOTH decided we didn't want it.

I almost did to her,
the wrong that was done to me.
It's all so insidious and messed up.

Most of my posts do not argue against gay marriage from the Church's point of view, but from a sociological POV. I bring up Church teaching because she is under attack for teaching what marriage is. I don't need Church teaching to prove that gay marriage is harmful to society.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

The Church continues to have an influence on a lot of people. Especially thous who belong to the Church that Christ started. It would be against the Church to force you to convert or care. And your not the first to not care. It certainly wont be the first time in history the church has been ignored and hated, and wont be the last.

Id like it for more people to believe. But I know the church will never become just a "marginal religion". And I know she will always be relevant.

Have you taken a look at Europe lately? Poll after poll shows high levels of education and secularism, low levels of church attendance. The places where the Church has consistent footholds seem to be in less-educated, less-developed areas, like South America and Africa.

I can almost guarantee, let South America and Africa become developed and educated, and you'll see church attendance begin to lag behind.

The church will never be relevant while it commits to ridiculous platforms like anti-contraception.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Have you taken a look at Europe lately? Poll after poll shows high levels of education and secularism, low levels of church attendance. The places where the Church has consistent footholds seem to be in less-educated, less-developed areas, like South America and Africa.

I can almost guarantee, let South America and Africa become developed and educated, and you'll see church attendance begin to lag behind.

The church will never be relevant while it commits to ridiculous platforms like anti-contraception.

Wont be the first time. She will rise again

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Wont be the first time. She will rise again

Possibly, but it's going to take some major readjusting.

She needs to get liberal on social issues and conservative on worship style.

How they could exchange the Solemn High Mass for the Ordinary Form... Ugh!

 

[sojourner]

Most of my posts do not argue against gay marriage from the Church's point of view, but from a sociological POV. I bring up Church teaching because she is under attack for teaching what marriage is. I don't need Church teaching to prove that gay marriage is harmful to society.

Oh? How?

 

[JacobEzra.]

Possibly, but it's going to take some major readjusting.

She needs to get liberal on social issues and conservative on worship style.

How they could exchange the Solemn High Mass for the Ordinary Form... Ugh!

I think she needs to stay the way she is.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Oh? How?

Seconded.

Please; do tell.

 

[sojourner]

We are naturally lustful and yet Christ said that when we look at a women lustfully we commit adultery in our hearts.

If natural impulses are not sins, then how is lusting after women a sin?

You should read more of the Gospel.

I lust after my wife...
Keeps things in the bedroom healthy!

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I think she needs to stay the way she is.

Nonsense. Would you rather her still condemn heliocentric cosmology?

 

[sojourner]

Oh yeah. Ill let the Pope know that unless the Chruch start forcing people to raise their children catholic, and if the parent fails to do so, then take the children from them. If not, then the Church is forcing the children to stumble.

As I said, and any normal person will say, I am not the parent. Who am I to say you must give them a Catholic education? Its certainly not my place.

The point is, by the attitude of "This is how we do it -- everybody else be damned," you are pushing people away from Christ -- especially those most in need of his mercy!
Jesus made the broken whole. Gay people can be whole people -- by what you've told me here. And "being whole" includes freedom of expression within the bounds of a loving, monogamous relationship.