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Discussing Genesis 1&2 - The Beginning

sooda

Veteran Member
Dear Readers,

The basis of dating of the Ancient Religious Leaders and Archbishop James Ussher does NOT agree with the observed Truth of History.

A good example is the below which shows that the first Human cities were built (some are still with us) by Noah's great grandsons some 10k years ago
. Gen 10:10... Not 3500 BC years ago, as other posters will let you believe..... http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

The chronology of Adam's years of living started counting only after he was Born Again spiritually in the Image and Likeness of God during Seth’ generations. That's also why Eve is called the "Mother of all the living". Biblically speaking, those who are NOT yet born again spiritually are considered by the Scripture as "Dead" and not "Living".

Therefore, the number of years of those who were not yet born again spiritually, are NOT INCLUDED in record of the chronology of the number of years as a "LIVING" in the image and likeness of God - as recorded in the Genealogy listings in the Scripture - from the birth Jesus thru Mary’s womb back to Seth .... simply because they are considered "Dead" and not "Living" by the Scripture. The number of LIVING - days/years - started counting only after being Born Again spiritually in the image and likeness of God. Why? Again, simply because....

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Mar 12:27

Therefore, the basis of dating methodology leaves thousands of years more .... (if not double).... to be added to the flawed estimated numbers of years to the Universal Flood of 6K (?) only ... at the time Noah set foot on this present planet of ours.

Only Willingly Ignorant Unbelievers always stumble to this Biblical Truth after being informed with Scriptural Proof Text, repeatedly .... a good example is our opposition poster above.

Note: Adam lived with Jesus for Billions of years before he disobeyed because he was made in a perfect body with a Shekinah Glory like that of Jesus. Adam lived in a body like those which Christians will have in heaven and so did Eve. Some denominations teach that death came into the world then, but Scripture shows that death came unto mankind (Heb-Adam) because he sinned.



I am not referencing Ussher on the flood. I'm referencing the King's list of Sumer. The flood was in 2900 BC.

The tower of Babel dates to 3500 BC.

Yes, there are many cities that predate Adam and Eve.

Bible stories are not dependent on historical facts.. They are quite fanciful and freewheeling.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
What did they borrow from Egypt?

God tells the Israelites in Leviticus 18:3- You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices." So I seriously doubt that statement.

Also you do know Abraham who is the father of the Hebrew nation was from Sumer. And God told him to get out of his country and he followed the true God so I doubt they followed any practices of the culture there either. We have to remember that just because something is written down first somewhere and sounds similar, doesn't mean it's the accurate account.

Well, the people in Sumer were from the East coast of Saudi Arabia, but there was NO Ur of the Chaldees in the time of Abraham.. Until 1850 Bible scholars thought Abraham was from Urfa near Haran in south east Turkey which would have made him from Aram or Syrian.

As for Egypt.. The Canaanites had close ties to Egypt. For much of their history they were under Egyptian control and paid tribute to pharaoh who provided Egyptian garrisons to protect them.

There was also a Jewish settlement at Elephantine Island from about the 6th century BC.. They had a temple, but apparently didn't have the post exilic torah.

The north coast Canaanites (Ugarit) were also under Egypt much of their history and the Hebrews borrowed a great deal from their mythology.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Again, you never answered my question from the other post. You claim to be a Christian yet you respond negatively and deny Christian doctrine. What denomination do you belong to and what is their teaching on the nature of God. I believe you're trolling.

There is so much more to history of the Middle East than just the Jewish story.

Doctrine isn't history.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
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There is so much more to history of the Middle East than just the Jewish story.

Doctrine isn't history.[/QUOTE
I could care less what you think about history, that's not what I'm asking. I said you're negative towards Christian doctrine which is a contradiction for a Christian. So, I'll ask you again are you really a Christian, and if so what denomination if any do you belong to. Simple question, simple answer. If you go somewhere else with your reply I'll know the answer to my question and won't ever engage with you on this forum again.
I mean at least the atheist on here are true to their beliefs and ideology and don't have to lie about their stance or being something their not:rolleyes:
 

sooda

Veteran Member

I'm Episcopalian. I don't read scripture as literal history or science. I have been taught to look for the message believing that the message is more important than the myth used to teach it. Most children by the age of 10 think Jonah being swallowed by a fish for 3 days is absurd... not much different than a puppet boy (Pinocchio) turning into a real boy or Geppeto being swallowed by a monstrous whale.

But, if you do your homework...… the Book of Jonah is a comic novella that teaches God also loved the people of Nineveh and wanted them to repent. Jonah was angry and sullen because he wanted God to destroy them even though they repented.. When he pouted God took away his shade tree, The story is about obedience and xenophobia..
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi Seve :

Your Opening post said : "...Here’s a brief summary of how I read the first five verses of the the Book of Genesis - The Beginning:
Genesis 1:1 Is a Preface or Summary - The Story of the Beginning of the Physical World
Genesis 1:2 Tells us the condition of the deep - empty / void - before the making of the physical world.
Genesis 1:3 The bringing forth of the LIGHT before anything is made that was made.... before the world was.
Genesis 1:4 The division of light from darkness - the first work of old.
Genesis 1:5 The evening and the morning the first day of creation.
As you can see, based on the above perspective of the cited texts, our physical heaven and earth that we know of today is still formless and void on the 1st Day of Creation. The 1st formation of the firmament of Heaven took place on the 2nd Day - Gen 1:6-8. The Earth was formed/made on the 3rd Day."
(Seve in the opening post, Bold and underline is mine)

Seve

Perhaps I misunderstand your specific statement that “The Earth was formed/made on the 3rd Day.” (Seve, in post #1)

While the earth (γη = earth in septuagint or ארע = earth/land in Masoretic) is in existence in verse one, it is simply not yet organized or furnished.

For example, in the septuagint, the material of the earth exists but is described in verse #2, as unseen and unfurnished (or “unready”), αορατοσ και ακατασκεθαστοσ. This is not a state of non-existence, but merely a less organized condition. The Masoretic description in verse #2 of chaotic and empty (חיתח תהו ובהו) also does not imply non-existence, but that the material of the organized earth was not yet organized and furnished. I cannot tell how much this coordinates with your theory or how much it is different than your personal theory on this specific point. Perhaps I misunderstand your statements in the opening post?

At any rate, good luck in coming up with personal models as to what such scriptures mean.

Clear
ειφυφυδρω
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Here' how I see it:

Genesis 1 is an Outline of ALL of the events leading to the Creation of the Perfect Heaven
. Most of the rest of the Bible refers to the present 6th Day, but ALL of the Bible refers to the events of God's 6 Creative Days. That's why we are taken back to the 3rd Day at Gen 2:4. The narrative is adding details to the events listed in Gen 1. Both accounts Gen 1 & 2 agree totally and in detail.

Since God sees the end from the beginning, Isa 46:10 He wrote the complete HISTORY of His Seven Days in the first 34 verses of Genesis. At Gen 2:4 the narrative RETURNS to the details of the THIRD Day.

[Isa 46:10 KJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

In other words, the first 34 verses of Genesis tell us the ENTIRE History of God's 7 Days of Creation, including events which will NOT happen until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet. Gen 1:28-31.

Here’s a brief summary of how I read the first five verses of the the Book of Genesis - The Beginning:

Genesis 1:1 Is a Preface or Summary - The Story of the Beginning of the Physical World
Genesis 1:2 Tells us the condition of the deep - empty / void - before the making of the physical world.
Genesis 1:3 The bringing forth of the LIGHT before anything is made that was made.... before the world was.
Genesis 1:4 The division of light from darkness - the first work of old.
Genesis 1:5 The evening and the morning the first day of creation.

As you can see, based on the above perspective of the cited texts, our physical heaven and earth that we know of today is still formless and void on the 1st Day of Creation. The 1st formation of the firmament of Heaven took place on the 2nd Day - Gen 1:6-8. The Earth was formed/made on the 3rd Day.

Your thought…..


God bless

I believe that is a presumption without supporting evidence.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Genesis is a compilation of various older (Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite, and Ugarit) sources, blended edited and redacted with Hebrew traditional sources and oral myths. There is no value trying reconcile Genesis 1 and 2 that are two distinct different sources in the compilation.

It is best to just accept it as ancient mythology and move on.

I believe that is poppycock. There is no evidence that Moses derived his information from anyone except God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is just a story, which is why every known
bit of data ever uncovered shows it is a
fairy tale.

I believe saying it is a fairy tale is a fairy tale. There is no evidence. I challenge you to find anything other than the Bible that says something different.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I believe that is poppycock. There is no evidence that Moses derived his information from anyone except God.

There is absolutely no evidence anything of the Pentateuch was written prior to ~800-600 BCE, and no text until the Dead Sea scrolls. The only other ancient Pentateuch is found in the cuneiform tablets of Sumeria, Babylonia, Canaanite, and Ugarit sources.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I do believe Moses existed, but not the Moses of Exodus, nor the author of the Pentateuch.

Well, the Pentateuch was written 800 years after the death of Moses. Do you wonder about borrowing myths from Babylon, Egypt and the Ugarit???
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well, the Pentateuch was written 800 years after the death of Moses. Do you wonder about borrowing myths from Babylon, Egypt and the Ugarit???

The present evidence is that the Pentateuch is a product of different sources, Hebrew traditional sources, and no first author evidence. Yes there is extensive evidence that yes there are sources.

If you are sorting out first person authored sources that are not evolved text to justify belief, that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have scripture of poor provenance.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
I believe saying it is a fairy tale is a fairy tale. There is no evidence. I challenge you to find anything other than the Bible that says something different.


Your challenge will go unmet because,
A- what the bible "says" seems different for each person
B- i can make no sense of what you said. Sorry, but
maybe rephrase?

I any event, the noahs ark story, while it lacks fairies,
is a fantastical tale with no historical truth to it.

If you are an adult who does not grasp that fact,
there may be little anyone, nor all the evidence in
the universe coukd do for you.
 
Here' how I see it:

Genesis 1 is an Outline of ALL of the events leading to the Creation of the Perfect Heaven
...

Heavens. There were seven of them, aka the seven palaces. :)

The following is the alphabetic acrostic of Genesis 1 and 2.
The letters run in this order (right to left):
א 1 ב 2 ג 3 ש 3 ד 4 ת 4 ה 5 ו 6 ז 7 ח 8 ט 9 י 10 כ 20 ל 30 מ 40 נ 50 ס 60 ע 70 פ 80 צ 90 ק 100 ר 200

Similar to the alphabetical acrostics in Psalms, each letter is relative to a section of Chapters 1 and 2 of the Book of Genesis and is mapped to the diagram of the Seven Palace. This is why the text is not linear.

sp-line-drawing-e1554675454874.jpg


The Palace of Beth (2).
‎“1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2. The earth was formless and void, and ‎darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the ‎waters. “‎

The two Palaces of the Aleph (1).
‎“3. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4. God saw that the light was good; and ‎God separated the light from the darkness.”‎
‎ “5. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was ‎morning, one day.”‎

The path of Gimel (3)‎.
‎“6. Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters ‎from the waters.” ‎
‎“7. God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the ‎waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.” ‎
‎“8. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.”‎

The path of Shin 3‎.
‎“9. Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land ‎appear”; and it was so. “‎
‎“10. God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it ‎was good.”‎

Dalet 4‎.
‎“11. Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth ‎bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12. The earth brought forth vegetation, ‎plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God ‎saw that it was good. 13. There was evening and there was morning, a third day.”‎

The path of Tav 4‎.
‎14. Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the ‎night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15. and let them be for lights ‎in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16. God made the two great ‎lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; ‎

The Path and Palace of the Heh (5)‎.
He made the stars also. 17. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the ‎earth, 18. and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and ‎God saw that it was good. 19. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Vau 6‎.
‎20. Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the ‎earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21. God created the great sea monsters and every ‎living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after ‎its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22. God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill ‎the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”‎
‎23. There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.‎

Zayin 7‎.
‎ 24. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and ‎creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25. God made the beasts of the ‎earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its ‎kind; and God saw that it was good.‎

Cheth 8‎.
‎26. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over ‎the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over ‎every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27. God created man in His own image, in the image of ‎God He created him; male and female He created them. 28. God blessed them; and God said to them, ‎‎”Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the ‎birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”‎

Teth 9.
‎29. Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the ‎earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30. and to every beast of ‎the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have ‎given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was ‎very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Yod 10‎.
‎ 1. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2. By the seventh day God ‎completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He ‎had done. 3. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His ‎work which God had created and made.‎

Kaph 20‎.
‎4. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD ‎God made earth and heaven. 5. Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the ‎field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to ‎cultivate the ground. 6. But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ‎ground. ‎

Lamed 30‎.
‎7. Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath ‎of life; and man became a living being. ‎

Mem 40‎.
‎8. The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He ‎had formed. ‎

Nun 50‎.
‎9. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good ‎for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and ‎evil.‎

Samekh 60‎.
‎10. Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four ‎rivers. 11. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is ‎gold. 12. The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13. The name of ‎the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. 14. The name of the third river is ‎Tigris; it flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.‎

Ayin 70‎.
‎15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. ‎‎16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17. ‎but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from ‎it you will surely die.”‎

Peh 80‎.
‎18. Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable ‎for him.” 19. Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, ‎and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living ‎creature, that was its name. 20. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and ‎to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. ‎

Tsade 90‎.
‎21. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ‎ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He ‎had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.‎

Qoph 100‎.
‎23. The man said,‎
‎“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”‎

Resh 200‎.
‎24. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall ‎become one flesh. 25. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.‎”


If I were to mnemonic the letters via the descriptions from Genesis they’d probably resemble something like this:

Beth ~ Gods house, everything in Heaven and Earth.
Aleph ~ Light/ Day and Night.
Gimel ~ Sky / Heaven.
Shin ~ Fire / Dryness / Heat.
Daleth ~ Doors into and out of the world.
Tav ~ the Measurement of Solar and Lunar Time.
Heh ~ Stars and Starlight.
Vav ~ Birds, Fish and Sea Monsters.
Zayin ~ Cattle and Insects.
Cheth ~ Sight, Vision, Appearance, Prophesy, Man.
Teth ~ Food.
Yod ~ Rest and Contemplation.
Kaph ~ Mist, Rain, Desire.
Lamed ~ The breath of Life, Neshamah.
Mem ~ Pregnancy.
Nun ~ Life, but also Death for all living things under the Sun.
Samekh ~ the great River.
Ayin ~ Temptation.
Peh ~ Mating.
Tsade ~ Childbirth, because Eve is regarded as the first birth according to Kabbalah.
Qoph ~ Moon / Eve / female.
Resh ~ Sun / Adam / male.

The letter Daleth needs a little further explanation; as it is assigned to two Palaces, but only one of them – the one to the left – is being discussed in her verses. This Palace represents the door through which all things enter into the world from heaven. It’s twin on the right side is the door through which all things exit the world and enter heaven. In these verses, though they seem to be about the creation of trees and vegetation in the world, the take away is that it is the first time God has caused anything to live upon the earth and so it is the first time one of these doors are used.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There was no Moses. He is a literary device. Exodus is a morality tale not history.

I believe you are calling God a liar since He has Moses in the Bible.I suppose your information comes from someones wild imagination.
 
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