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Disseminating "Jews control America" ...

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.lava

Veteran Member


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.lava

Veteran Member


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.lava

Veteran Member


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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Pete, when you blast everyone who doesn't believe in your position as a bigot, you come across as the worst sort of petty propagandist. You also do a disservice to your own side in the debate, making it seem as if you have nothing more to offer than irrational name calling.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
There is indeed an Israeli lobby in the United States. By most accounts, it is remarkably influential when it comes to American foreign policy. By some accounts, it is also remarkably influential at stifling public debate over America's support for Israel. From what little I've seen, I tend to believe there's some creditability to both points, but I wouldn't put myself forward as an expert on the Israeli lobby.
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is so pathetic that it simply amazes me. Whoever told you that "Jews" were in control is a bigot. It's simply not true and this is spread in order to make people DISTRUST Jews all over

Again, these are the PRECISE thoughts that lead to the Holocaust. That you dismiss it so easily shows just how PERVASIVE this bigotry has become.

The thoughts don't cause mass killing as you think, but using some mere words to justify anything is what might cause incidents like the holocaust. If you kept believing that mere THINKING would lead to another holocaust then your intellect and integrity as a human being is in jeopardy.

You have to know that Zionism is the enemy of the Jewish people but not anybody else, definitely not us. Zionism is brainwashing masses and pushing them into believing that any negative view for *some* Jews would lead to another holocaust which is totally absurd and child-like thinking, and i really feel sorry for those who fall for such fear tactics.

You're kidding right? You are buying into this bigotry? Wow. Let's look at the RICHEST people in America.

Irrelevant.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Zionism is brainwashing masses and pushing them into believing that any negative view for *some* Jews would lead to another holocaust which is totally absurd and child-like thinking, and i really feel sorry for those who fall for such fear tactics.
Zionism is Jewish nationalism - nothing more, nothing less. As with nationalism in general, it lends itself to all manner of xenophobic excesses and is, in my opinion, inherently reactionary. But so too is the bigoted and bellicose denial of the right to nationhood.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Zionism is Jewish nationalism - nothing more, nothing less. As with nationalism in general, it lends itself to all manner of xenophobic excesses and is, in my opinion, inherently reactionary. But so too is the bigoted and bellicose denial of the right to nationhood.

Is it "bigoted and bellicose" for North Americans to deny first nations of the right to nationhood? What about Canadians who object to the Quebec separatist movement? Every time somebody wants to redraw the lines on a map there is bound to be controversy - Israel is a fairly recent imposition on the middle east, so the phenomenon of Israel's former residents and their allies questioning its legitimacy is understandable. Do they have a "right" to nationhood? I don't know - no more or less than anyone else, I suppose. (how would you feel about first nations in N America - also the victims of a vast, horrific campaign of genocide - getting that same "right" if it meant you and your family had to leave your home because it happened to be in the middle of their new country?) Anyway, it's there now and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so we can assume that as generations directly impacted by Israel's exile and persecution of non-Jews die off, the number of people questioning its right to be there will eventually diminish.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Pete, I have to say I think your reaction is a tad on the hysterical side.
Perhaps you just don't see just how quickly these types of ideas can turn deadly. The worst part of all of this is just how systemic the bias has become.

If you ascribe to the belief that "Jews control America", then you are a part of a HUGE problem of Antisemitism here in America. Now, you can get all upset because I am pointing this inconvenient truth out, but SOMEONE needs to. We don't need another Holocaust, and this is the beginning of one.

Now, can you criticize Israel? Sure, since criticizing Israel is not the same. I certainly don't like their blood thirstiness. But now you are equating Israel's National Policies to ALL Jews EVERYWHERE, and that's just plain dangerous. Does Israel have a huge and influential lobby? Yes. Is this a reason to say that "Jews control America"? ABSOLUTELY AND RESOLUTELY NO.

Now, look at .lava's posts about all those people (presumably Jews) who happen to be rich. He has posted 70+ random names who have two crimes against them: They are rich and they are Jewish. Next we'll be requiring them to wear a Yellow "J" stitched to their shirts. I gave the TOP TEN RICHEST PEOPLE in America and asked him how many were Jewish. No follow up there. We might be able to extrapolate about the percentage of rich people we have that are Jewish that way. .lava is not interested in the truth: only in trying to prove an OUTRAGEOUS CLAIM that Jews control America. It would appear that he would want all Jews to take up a vow of poverty. How absolutely pathetic.

As for me being hysterical, I am sure that Hitler's Germany said that about all those people who disagreed with the concentration camps as well. I have fought bigotry my entire life: I am NOT going to be silenced because it makes a few people uncomfortable. Deal with your bigotry and you won't feel so uncomfortable.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Pete, when you blast everyone who doesn't believe in your position as a bigot, you come across as the worst sort of petty propagandist.
Wow, I haven't had my position so clearly misstated in a long time. I am glad that you are joining the ranks of mball in completely missing what I am saying because you are so easily offended. I don't consider ANYONE a bigot for disagreeing with me. Jay and I routinely disagree and I do not consider him a raging bigot for one moment.

However, a few years ago Jay made a statement about Muslims that I called him on. No, Jay was not pleased that I did so, but I think he finally came to terms with it! It really doesn't matter WHO the bigotry is against: we have to eradicate it all. Jews aren't out to control America, Muslims are not out to blow up cities, Blacks aren't out to get white girls pregnant, atheists aren't out to destroy America and the list of UGLY stereotypes goes on and on.

Please, STOP THE BIAS AND THE BIGOTRY. The very first step is to stop DEFENDING the bias and the bigotry. Now go and destroy the stereotypes. Be bold and tell people that they are FULL OF BALONEY when they make these types of statements.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Scuba Pete, i don't think you got me.

i tell what i think about USA government and i also share how i feel. it could be difficult to accept what others think about USA government, because they represent you. i can understand that. that's the reason why i always put public aside. it is same with Israeli government. my thoughts about them is not what i think for Jewish people.

if you or anyone want to discuss or share views, i would join, i did many times. but this is not a discussion. it can not be a discussion subject. it can only make people argue over nothing. none of us could prove anything.

i don't know if there's anything left for me to say. i believe i've been clear enough.



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Alceste

Vagabond
Perhaps you just don't see just how quickly these types of ideas can turn deadly. The worst part of all of this is just how systemic the bias has become.

If you ascribe to the belief that "Jews control America", then you are a part of a HUGE problem of Antisemitism here in America.

I don't even live in America.

Now, you can get all upset because I am pointing this inconvenient truth out, but SOMEONE needs to. We don't need another Holocaust, and this is the beginning of one.

Please point out where I said I ascribe to the belief that "jews control America". Do you think saying "AIPAC has a tremendous impact on American foreign policy" is the same thing? (Although I didn't even say that!) Your post suggests you do, which makes me think perhaps your "lifetime of fighting against bigotry" has made you a little over-sensitive.

But now you are equating Israel's National Policies to ALL Jews EVERYWHERE, and that's just plain dangerous. Does Israel have a huge and influential lobby? Yes. Is this a reason to say that "Jews control America"? ABSOLUTELY AND RESOLUTELY NO.

First, I didn't say that.

Second, the way criticism of Israel is framed depends on who you're talking to. If it's a simplistic person with a loose grasp of facts and not much of a penchant for accuracy (ie the opposite of someone like me), then "Jews control America" is just a different way of saying "AIPAC has a tremendous impact on American foreign policy toward Israel." or "The Asper family sacks reporters and editors who attempt to run articles that are critical of Israel in their papers". If the members of AIPAC are Jewish, and the Asper family is Jewish, then is it really so unreasonable to say Jewish people are attempting to control public opinion and foreign policy in North America?

Put another way, if Bush and all his cronies are Christian (or claim to be), is it bigoted to point out that Christians are attempting to control America?

Now, look at .lava's posts about all those people (presumably Jews) who happen to be rich. He has posted 70+ random names who have two crimes against them: They are rich and they are Jewish....

He's responding to your own post where you asked (for whatever incomprehensible reason) for someone to show you some rich Jews. Failed debate tactic on your part and pointless response on his. Just leave it at that.

As for me being hysterical, I am sure that Hitler's Germany said that about all those people who disagreed with the concentration camps as well. I have fought bigotry my entire life: I am NOT going to be silenced because it makes a few people uncomfortable. Deal with your bigotry and you won't feel so uncomfortable.

Riiiiiiight. So, let me get this straight - since I don't suppress my honest opinion of groups like AIPAC, CAMERA, and the Asper family I'm no different from Hitler. :clap

What about if i'm Jewish, like this guy, am I allowed to do it then? Or am I still launching a second haulocaust?

The bottom line for me in Israel policy is what I saw in the Occupied Territories. The separate roadway system, the religious girls stoning Arab girls who were going to school... the settlements are, as poet David Shulman writes, evil. The settlers are driving Palestinians off the land and getting the Israeli army and American political system to back them.

Last night at dinner my sister asked me Why if everyone and his brother is for the two-state solution is there not a real push for a two-state solution? The easy answer is that the Israel lobby in the U.S., which has virtually set policy, is dominated by the right wing. - Philip Weiss
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
You're kidding right? You are buying into this bigotry? Wow. Let's look at the RICHEST people in America. From The World's Billionaires - Forbes.com

1 Warren Buffett United States 77 62.0 United States
3 William Gates III United States 52 58.0 United States
12 Sheldon Adelson United States 74 26.0 United States
14 Lawrence Ellison United States 63 25.0 United States
26 Christy Walton & family United States 53 19.2 United States
26 Jim Walton United States 60 19.2 United States
26 S Robson Walton United States 64 19.2 United States
29 Alice Walton United States 58 19.0 United States
32 Sergey Brin United States 34 18.7 United States
33 Larry Page United States 35 18.6 United States

Here in the top ten richest Americans, I would like you to show me who is Jewish. Go ahead, I am patient.

What exactly does this prove? Maybe I'm missing something.

BTW, I'm not saying Jews do control everything or anything close. I would tend towards the view that all the rumors and such about Jews controlling stuff are false. I just don't have evidence one way or the other. I'm not going to go claiming "You're completely wrong! There is no foundation for your claim!" when I can't prove that there is no foundation for the claim. If the claim is being used to further anti-semitism, then, sure, bring up the fact that it's probably some rumor blown out of proportion. The way you're going about it, though, is no better than what the other side is doing.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Please point out where I said I ascribe to the belief that "jews control America".
You apparently MISSED the big "IF" I used in this statement.
me said:
If you ascribe to the belief that "Jews control America", then you are a part of a HUGE problem of Antisemitism here in America.
I made it red so you won't miss it this time. Thanks for playing.

Now, does anyone ELSE want to misrepresent me and what I am saying?
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Now, does anyone ELSE want to misrepresent me and what I am saying?

i don't accept things you claim about me. i am not racist, i am not antisemitic, i don't hate people because they believe in the book Torah, i am not bigot, i am not Nazi...etc and i am not going to be any of those just because i perceive things as the way i do.


thanks :)



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Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
What exactly does this prove? Maybe I'm missing something.
If Jews REALLY do control America, then they would DOMINATE the top 10 richest people here in America. That doesn't appear to be the case, now does it.
BTW, I'm not saying Jews do control everything or anything close. I would tend towards the view that all the rumors and such about Jews controlling stuff are false.
Then you are on the road to giving the stereotypes the credit they deserve: nothing.
The way you're going about it, though, is no better than what the other side is doing.
The old "It's not WHAT your saying, but HOW you are saying it" complaint. I am under no delusion that my methodology is the best for all situations. However, I have fought against bigotry my whole life and have found that often just being "nice" won't get people to look at their own personal bigotry, nor will it expose the bigots for what they are.
 

kai

ragamuffin
i don't accept things you claim about me. i am not racist, i am not antisemitic, i don't hate people because they believe in the book Torah, i am not bigot, i am not Nazi...etc and i am not going to be any of those just because i perceive things as the way i do.


thanks :)



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i like how you put thanks on the end of a serious post ,its very polite
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Pete, would you agree with the Jewish bloggers I linked to in my post who claim that AIPAC - a right-wing Jewish lobby group - shapes US foreign policy in Israel?
 

.lava

Veteran Member
wow

i guess i am not someone ELSE! but you're the one who's civilized, you're the one who does not spread hatred, you're the one who's not bigot. don't blame me if i admit i am just a mirror, nothing more, nothing less. just a flat mirror! fight with your ghost as you like, i am done.

and you, Jay, as a director of this scene to be seen one more time, i applaud you. just don't try to explain how a nine year old got shot right in the forehead, ok?



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