Divorce?

[Archer]

Though it was taught by Christ that the only justifiable divorce in the eyes of God are infidelity: 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

How do we justify what we do today? Is infidelity of any sort the same as this? Or are we just being human, needing ask forgiveness in these things.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Do you want to say more about it?

 

[Dunemeister]

In context, Jesus was discussing the Jewish law according to which if a man (only a man) wanted a divorce, he could simply complete some formal procedure and it was done. Jesus argued that this law did not represent God's actual desire for marriage but that he had something greater in mind. However, because the people of God (as any other people would have been had God chosen another people) were stubborn and literally incapable of following such a high standard, God provided this means for the people to obtain divorces. At least that way, Israel could maintain her covenant faithfulness.

 

[idea]

Jesus Christ’s Sayings & Marriage Relationships:
They perceived He spake unto them?
Friday night session.

(He) handed each of us a little booklet full of what Jesus said about how we should treat one another. He talked about his mission in Japan, how people there know as much about Christianity as we know about Shinto/Buddhism. Starting from square one, he told a middle aged man how God had a son who was born on Earth and walked among us for a time. The message sunk in, and this man, understanding that the actual son of God was here on Earth, excitedly asked, “What did he say? What did the son of God say?” (He) asked if we understood the magnitude of the words that we hold in our hands, suggested that we study what Jesus said, that we know what he said, that we carry the words of our Savior with us day by day. Contained in the booklet is a collection of the actual words that Jesus said concerning our relationships with one another, how we should treat one another. He asked us to take these booklets home, and read them once a day for three consecutive days, sign the back page each time we read it to keep track. That we take the words of Jesus, and apply them in our marriage, and how we treat our spouse.

I have rearranged the book to the order we discussed it. We went over the Sower, the first parable that Jesus gave, first. This is not about relationships, it is about really seeing, hearing, understanding, letting the words take hold in our hearts. Who are we? Do these words of wisdom fall by the wayside when they reach our ears? Do these words fall on stony ground? Among thorns? Or are we good ground? Do we hold the seed, nourish it, keep it, bring forth fruit with it? Act on it?

The following are the words from the book that was handed out, words of our Savior, words we need to apply to all of our relationships, especially that relationship we have with our spouse:

Pg 7
The Sower – The first parable (Matt 13, Luke 8, Mark 4)
Jesus teaching from a ship to the multitude on the shore.
Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow his seed: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sum was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty and some sixty and some a hundred.

(and then Jesus was silent, rowed the boat back out into the lake, that is all the multitude heard… only the disciples heard the interpretation of the parable)

pg 8
Jesus interpretation of the parable:

The seed is the word of God; The sower soweth the word.

Wayside:
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, and understandeth it not, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts lest they should believe and be saved.

Stony ground
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately reveive it with gladness; and have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction, tribulation, temptation or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, by and by they are offended and fall away.

Among the Thorns
And These are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, pleasures of this life and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Good Ground
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the words keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Pg 1
And Jesus sad….
Divorce devised of men
Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. Matt 19:8
Jesus said we should not put away our wives in divorcement save for the cause of fornication. Matt 5:32
He which made them at the beginning made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. They are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God had joined together, let not man put asunder. Matt 19:4-9


Contention is of the Devil
Verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention. - 3 Nephi 11:29


Control Anger
Ye have heard that it is said of them from old time, Thou shall not kill, but I say whosoever is angry with his brother, without a cause (omitted in JST & 3 Nephi) is in danger of Judgment, don’t say to your brother Raca (worthless) or refer to them as a fool. Matt 5:21-22 Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you. Matt 5:44

Pg 2
Judge not; focus on your own blind spots
Judge not that he be not judged. First cast out the beam (log) out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote (silver) out of thy brother’s eye. Matt 7: 1-5


Forgive
Forgive men their trespasses. Matt 6:14
If thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Matt 18:15
Forgive him not seven times but until seven times seven. Matt 18:22
Take heed to yourself; If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke (confront) him and if he repent, forgive him. Luke 17:3
To whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. Luke 7:47

Reconcile
If thou bring thy gift before the alter (worhip) and remember that your brother hath aught (anything) against you, first be reconciled with your brother. Agree with (have kindly words for or be well disposed toward) your adversary quickly. Matt 5:22-25

Be Humble
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased (humbled) and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Luke 14:11

 

[idea]

Pg 3
Adultery starts with Lust
It was said of them of old time, Thou shall not commit adultery, but whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matt 5:28 Behold I give unto you a new commandment that he allow none of these things to enter into your heart. For it is better that he should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that he should be cast into hell. 3 Nephi 12:29-30

Take retaliation out of your heart
Not “an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth”, but rather; whosoever shall smite thee on they right cheek, turn to him the other also. If a man sue thee at law and take away thy coat let him have thy cloak also. Whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Matt 5:38-41

Accountable for idle words
Every idle word that men shall speak they shall give an account thereof in the day of Judgment for by thy words thou shall be justified and nby thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:36-37
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Matt 15:11 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart: for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies, covetousness, wickedness, an evil eye, pride, foolishness. These are the things that defile a man. Matt 15:18-19 Mark 7:20-23

Pg 4
Murmur not
Murmur (complain) not among yourselves. John 6:43 In your patience possess ye your souls. Luke 21:19

It is not about the stuff of this world
Take heed and beware of covetousness (stinginess) for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. Luke 12:15
Take heed to yourselves, lest at anytime your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting (overeating) and drunkenness, and cares of this life and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare. Watch ye therefore, and pray always that he may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21: 34-36
In the world ye shall have tribulations (trouble): but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world. John 16:33

Drowned by child abuse
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones. Matt 18:10 Whosoever shall offend (hurt) one of these little ones, it would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about their neck and they drowned in the depth of the sea. Matt 18:6

Pg 5
Service
Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them. Matt 7:12
He whosoever shall be great among you, chief among you, let him be your servant. Matt 20:26-27
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can corrupt trees bring forth good fruit, wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matt 7:18-20
Do not your alms (service to the poor) to be seen of men, but rather do them in secret: let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth. Matt 6:1-3
Give and it shall be given unto you: good measure, pressed down and shaken together and running over. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Luke 6:38
When ye have done all those things which are commanded you say, we are unprofitable servant: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

Pg 6
Why call me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever heareth these saying of mine and doeth them, I will liken unto a wise man which built his house up on a rock. And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house and it fell not. Matt 7:24-25
Have ye understood all these things? Therefore every scribe (follower) which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out his treasured things new and old. Matt 13:51-52
Let these saying sink down into your ears for the son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. Luke 9:44
Heaven and earth pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luke 21:33
Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst: but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. John 4:14
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed: and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31-32
If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23
These things I have spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. John 15:11
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. Ion the world ye shall have tribulations (trouble): but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world. John 16:33

Pg 7
The Sower – The first parable (Matt 13, Luke 8, Mark 4)
Jesus teaching from a ship to the multitude on the shore.
Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow his seed: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sum was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty and some sixty and some a hundred.

(and then Jesus was silent, rowed the boat back out into the lake, that is all the multitude heard… only the disciples heard the interpretation of the parable)

 

[idea]

pg 8
Jesus interpretation of the parable:

The seed is the word of God; The sower soweth the word.

Wayside:
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, and understandeth it not, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts lest they should believe and be saved.

Stony ground
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction, tribulation, temptation or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, by and by they are offended and fall away.

Among the Thorns
And These are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, pleasures of this life and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Good Ground
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the words keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.



the above are notes from one of the classes in a marriage retreat our church recently did.

 

[Archer]

the above are notes from one of the classes in a marriage retreat our church recently did.

Thanks I will process this.

 

[Archer]

Do you want to say more about it?

Actually I was asking for thoughts on the subject that is all. I personally like to follow the teachings as written, but abusiveness, in a relationship, is dangerous where infidelity is just wrong and a sin against God. There are also infatuations and addictions to worldly things that are as bad or worse than infidelity to the human and the relationship.

Though I am by no means in a bad relationship (I have a great wife) things change and sometimes not for the better. What I am asking is, in the eyes of God, how can a divorce other than infidelity, be justified? Do we do what we feel is best for us, asking guidance in prayer, and then do as we will?

How, without going against scripture, can one sever the covenant made before God?

 

[idea]

Thanks I will process this.

my fave is this one:

To whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. - Luke 7:47

40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
(New Testament | Luke7:40 - 50)


no one is perfect... Do we actually love the other person? or do we just love what they do for us?


43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(New Testament | Matthew5:43 - 48)

obviously, do not stay in a abusive relashonship... but if the issue is just someone being materialistic? meand it, don't end it! Grow together, and find out what love really is


prayers for you and yours!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How, without going against scripture, can one sever the covenant made before God?

This is what I teach:

Christian marriage - in its ideal form - is a testimony about God's faithfulness to the church. There is only one church and one Savior for her, and the faithfulness of Christ to the church is mirrored by the lifelong faithfulness of husband and wife.

The only way for the marriage to work is mutual love and constant forgiveness.

But, we must recognize that we are not Christ and the church. We can't live up to the perfect ideal of Christ, completely forgiving and loving unconditionally. When a couple can no longer remain together as a symbol of the unity of Christ and the church, divorce may be the only thing that can release the pressure.

I previously thought that the church has the rite of marriage, but no rite for divorce. But the Eastern Orthodox church has the rite of divorce, and divorcees are free to remarry.

 

[Archer]

@ idea

It looks like you guys had a great retreat! Though much is covered that is Biblical, I saw nothing (I might have missed it) about the failed marriage. What is one to do Bucolically? Deal with it as it is not seen as an offence worthy of divorce in God's eves? To seek counseling could mean the death to a woman in an abusive relationship.

I know God understands but is the only loophole to do it (divorce) and ask forgiveness?

 

[Archer]

This is what I teach:

Christian marriage - in its ideal form - is a testimony about God's faithfulness to the church. There is only one church and one Savior for her, and the faithfulness of Christ to the church is mirrored by the lifelong faithfulness of husband and wife.

The only way for the marriage to work is mutual love and constant forgiveness.

But, we must recognize that we are not Christ and the church. We can't live up to the perfect ideal of Christ, completely forgiving and loving unconditionally. When a couple can no longer remain together as a symbol of the unity of Christ and the church, divorce may be the only thing that can release the pressure.

I previously thought that the church has the rite of marriage, but no rite for divorce. But the Eastern Orthodox church has the rite of divorce, and divorcees are free to remarry.

@ idea

It looks like you guys had a great retreat! Though much is covered that is Biblical, I saw nothing (I might have missed it) about the failed marriage. What is one to do Bucolically? Deal with it as it is not seen as an offence worthy of divorce in God's eves? To seek counseling could mean the death to a woman in an abusive relationship.

I know God understands but is the only loophole to do it (divorce) and ask forgiveness?

So in essence God never said be stupid.

 

[Charity]

@ idea

It looks like you guys had a great retreat! Though much is covered that is Biblical, I saw nothing (I might have missed it) about the failed marriage. What is one to do Bucolically? Deal with it as it is not seen as an offence worthy of divorce in God's eves? To seek counseling could mean the death to a woman in an abusive relationship.

I know God understands but is the only loophole to do it (divorce) and ask forgiveness?

I've never understood why the woman is always the scape goat, after all it takes two to marry and two people to get a divorce....What if the man was the one who commited adultery? Then if the poor exwife marries again then she is the one who is the adultress?

 

[Archer]

I've never understood why the woman is always the scape goat, after all it takes two to marry and two people to get a divorce....What if the man was the one who commited adultery? Then if the poor exwife marries again then she is the one who is the adultress?

Charity you are correct in that much (at least from my perspective), Paul did pretty much lay out that marriage is equal man and woman as far as, I will say nothing here is the scripture: 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

And

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Now as to marital duties that is another ball game that would be a great thread. I will say this a Christian man need be willing to lay down his life for his wife. You never hear that said by the guys saying the woman need obey do you?

I think (personal perspective), this: 1 Cor 7:15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

Above may address the question as one who believes and follows would not seek divorce.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So in essence God never said be stupid.

I'm not sure how that's a response to what I wrote.

I don't think that Jesus wants us to be in a miserable, loveless marriage any more than he wants us proud that we never lust after women (after all, that's adultery, too).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I've never understood why the woman is always the scape goat, after all it takes two to marry and two people to get a divorce....What if the man was the one who commited adultery? Then if the poor exwife marries again then she is the one who is the adultress?

Here it is critical to deferintiate between idealism and practical living.

Jesus also said that if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.... and that looking at a woman lustfully (which every heterosexual man has done) is an adulterer.

In other words, all of us are sinners, no matter how self-righteous we appear to be. There's not a loophole for sin, but our need for redemption and forgiveness are brought to light by our brokenness... and there is no room for pride.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband.

I quote this line when I want the wife to do the dishes.

 

[Charity]

I quote this line when I want the wife to do the dishes.

Does it work?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Does it work?

Never.

She just quotes the next sentence, at which time I explain that this particular line is a later non-Pauline interpolation.

 

[Archer]

I'm not sure how that's a response to what I wrote.

I don't think that Jesus wants us to be in a miserable, loveless marriage any more than he wants us proud that we never lust after women (after all, that's adultery, too).

I made the response out of context, sorry. I was reading and that thought got posted just nothing else. In my response to Charity I covered some of the texts I was reading.