Do Atheists go to hell?

[Blackdog22]

This morning, our bishop told us that the only people who go to outer darkness (AKA hell) are those who belong to our church. Everyone else is guaranteed a position in one of the kingdoms of glory.

We believe that the only way to end up in outer darkness, is if you know without a doubt that God is real - only those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him go to outer darkness, and only those who were once in God's church have had God revealed to them, so only those within God's church have the potential of going to hell...

So basically going to Church and having anything to do with God while on this earth is a terrible idea? Wouldn't your church be more moral to just never preach so everyone is guaranteed a place in Heaven? You are basically saying that going to Church = only way to enter hell, thus making any sane person who would actually believe any of this stay as far away from your church as possible.

Also, how exactly does God reveal himself to people in your church that he doesn't for others? Does he show up and sing a ballad or are you just making claims with no substance?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

If your belief in a god entails a hell, do you think that atheists are going there? If so, why? If not, why? If you think that atheists are going to hell, do you think that this is a just and moral system?

And if you also claim that your god is moral and just, and he sends atheists to hell, how do you justify his morality?

it is Allah issue to decide who will go to heaven or hell.

 

[Sunstone]

I know some atheists who go to parties. But I don't think they've been to hell yet. Is there a cover charge?

 

[Blackdog22]

I guess we're just not talking about the exact same thing. Christianity is not about your good works outweighing your sins. It does not work that way... actually, it that were true, then Christ died in vain and Christianity is worthless.
We do not get to Heaven based on virtues, otherwise, there would have never been any need for sacrifice.

That is the problem, that a person who does more good than bad can go to hell for being honest with himself. If a person honestly doesn't know whether Jesus was God then why should he "burn forever?" If your God is the kind of God who thinks torturing someone forever for being honest with themselves is a good idea then none of us really stand a chance since the guy in charge would then be immoral.

Lets take a situation. Lets say guy A just gets done with supper at a restraurant and sees a woman and thinks about sex for a few seconds then gets shot in the head. According to your theology this person should "burn forever."

Now lets take guy B. He is a good Christian, but has problems with lust that he is trying to overcome. He has a relapse and ends up stumbling into a porn site while searching the internet. He has just lusted the same as Guy A, but Guy B gets shot in the stomach and has the chance to ask forgiveness. Should Guy B live forever in Heaven while guy A is tortured forever in hell?

What if Guy B raped someone and then asked forgiveness? What if he murdered someone? What if he was Hitler?

My point in all of this is I don't believe any salvation based on "belief" in something completely unknowable and thus dishonest is in anyway moral. If Guy A lives his entire life trying to better himself and Guy B lives as a murderer his entire life and asks forgiveness to some unknowable being on his very last breath, I don't see Guy B worthy of eternal paradise. Why do you see Guy A worthy of eternal torture?

 

[cottage]

Yes, the God I believe in created the universe and established the rules. There are things which happen on this temporal earth which are not according to His will...such as sin. God is no more to blame for sending anyone to hell, than a judge in a courtroom is to blame for sending a criminal to prison. Who is the one who broke the law the criminal or the judge???

I fail to understand how people can allow themselves to believe such self-contradictory nonsense. Time and again theists argue (as you've done above) that evil is attributable to secondary causation, which is to say if A kills B, then B is killed by A, not God. In fact this line of defence doesn't answer the Problem of Evil, or the contradictions which result, for secondary causation is by definition an effect, since theists maintain God is the indisputable First Cause.Therefore the series of causes and their effects can be traced directly back to God as the first cause in a series of causes. So if people go to hell it is because God sends them there. St Thomos makes the point:

"Just as God not only gave being to things when the first began, but is also the cause of their being as long as they last...so he not only gave things their operative powers when they were first created, but is always the cause of these in things. Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop. Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to him as a cause.! (Summa contra Gentiles, lII, 67).

So if there is such a place as hell then God caused the existence of such a place.
For if everything created by God was good, then nothing created by God was evil. Therefore if every existent thing is good, then no existent thing is evil. Yet there is evil. Therefore, if some existent things are evil then not everything created by God was good.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If your belief in a god entails a hell, do you think that atheists are going there?

According to my religion, it is not for me to pass judgement on others.

If so, why?

Why you ask? our dogma is he who doubts is damned. My religion requires faith in God to be spared from judgement.

If not, why?

I think it would be fair to ask you why you would be concerned with what others believe about this? I'm very sure other religions believe my soul is not in good standing according to their religion. It would be impossible to follow every religion and worry about their so called judgements.

If you think that atheists are going to hell, do you think that this is a just and moral system?

What you are asking me is if my master is just. If he is all mighty, what would this matter? The issue is if he is real or not. If he is real, he will do as he pleases no matter if you think it is moral or not.

And if you also claim that your god is moral and just, and he sends atheists to hell, how do you justify his morality?

I don't justify his morality or even question it.

I see things two ways here. If he is real, it matters little if he is moral or just.

If he is not real, why would we worry about it? Atheists believe God does not exist, so why would they care about an unjust God sending them somewhere they don't believe in?

Why not be truthful about this? Are you just wanting to be told that our religion believes you will be tortured for all eternity because of your disbelief?

The truth of the matter is, we just don't know if there is a God or not and what he will do with disbelievers if anything.

Too many folks worry about what other think, why?

Is this thread about making believers look silly or is it about worrying you could be wrong and might have to face consequences for all eternity?

If it is about portraying God as unjust or immoral what would be the point in that?

If there is an immoral God who wants to extract vengeance on you for your disbelief, what are you going to do about this?

I never have understood why people spend one moment worrying about where a God they don't believe in is going to send them?

Or why they would want to be concerned if God is fair or just? What would it matter?

 

[Blackdog22]

If it is about portraying God as unjust or immoral what would be the point in that?

I think the point would be to point out he is unjust and immoral, just what you said. If you go your entire life thinking might = right then your mindset is one where anyone in power is automatically right.

Hitler needed to be found to be immoral otherwise the Jews could of been exterminated completely. If no one bothered to find a fault in what he was doing then no change could of been made. Once Christians(not saying you do this, but people who claim to be just as Christian as you do) stop sticking their noses in politics and the rights of other human beings, and once Christians stop brainwashing my mom into believing I am going to burn forever causing her to cry over me all Christmas. Once Christians stop following a mob boss mentality that says, "might = right" then I as an atheist will gladly stop coming to these forums.

Not saying this is all Christians, but it is the majority that I personally encounter and the primary type of Christian that has infected my entire family.

 

[cottage]

According to my religion, it is not for me to pass judgement on others.Why you ask? our dogma is he who doubts is damned. My religion requires faith in God to be spared from judgement.I think it would be fair to ask you why you would be concerned with what others believe about this? I'm very sure other religions believe my soul is not in good standing according to their religion. It would be impossible to follow every religion and worry about their so called judgements. What you are asking me is if my master is just. If he is all mighty, what would this matter? The issue is if he is real or not. If he is real, he will do as he pleases no matter if you think it is moral or not.I don't justify his morality or even question it.

I see things two ways here. If he is real, it matters little if he is moral or just.

If he is not real, why would we worry about it? Atheists believe God does not exist, so why would they care about an unjust God sending them somewhere they don't believe in?

Why not be truthful about this? Are you just wanting to be told that our religion believes you will be tortured for all eternity because of your disbelief?

The truth of the matter is, we just don't know if there is a God or not and what he will do with disbelievers if anything.

Too many folks worry about what other think, why?

Is this thread about making believers look silly or is it about worrying you could be wrong and might have to face consequences for all eternity?

If it is about portraying God as unjust or immoral what would be the point in that?

If there is an immoral God who wants to extract vengeance on you for your disbelief, what are you going to do about this?

I never have understood why people spend one moment worrying about where a God they don't believe in is going to send them?

Or why they would want to be concerned if God is fair or just? What would it matter?

You ask why do people worry about what others think (of belief in a God)? The answer is 1. Because decisions are made by believers that have, or might have, consequences for us all. And 2. because it is a subject for discussion in its own right. (Why should you object to the concept of God and religious belief in general being questioned?)

With respect, it seems slightly odd that you worship and believe in a God that by your own admission might not exist, which means ‘your master’ might not be ‘your master’!

The object of this thread isn't 'to make believers look silly' but to show how the concept of hell and a morally good God is impossible. It also demonstrates the absurdity that is the Creator passing judgement on his own work of creation.

 

[Qymaen]

If your belief in a god entails a hell, do you think that atheists are going there? If so, why? If not, why? If you think that atheists are going to hell, do you think that this is a just and moral system?

And if you also claim that your god is moral and just, and he sends atheists to hell, how do you justify his morality?

Is not Hell, according to at least Abrahamic theology, the destination of the wicked. If your an atheist who works on humanitarian missions voluntarily does that mean you will go to Hell just because you don't believe in God? If so then that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't justify his morality or even question it.

And why not? Surely you were blessed with a brain, and are you not doing your supposed God a disservice by not utilizing those faculties and deciding for yourself whether or not God's moral standard (or, at least, what you have been told your God's moral standard is) meets your own? If God came down to earth and decreed that raping and murdering were no longer sins, but that entry into heaven demanded that you must rape and murder as many people as possible, would you bend to his will? If your moral standard is not based on sound judgement, but instead in defference to the whim of a supernatural, largely unknown entity, then your moral standard is not really a "moral" at all. You're just selling your personal morality to the highest bidder.

I see things two ways here. If he is real, it matters little if he is moral or just.

How can you think that? Of course it matters. If God's an amoral scumbag who is either apathetic or revels in the suffering of human beings, of course it matters that we immediately stop treating such a being with any kind of reverence.

If he is not real, why would we worry about it? Atheists believe God does not exist, so why would they care about an unjust God sending them somewhere they don't believe in?

It's called a hypothetical argument. It's less to do with God's actual existence as much as it is to do with the kind of morality that belief in a God creates in people.

Why not be truthful about this? Are you just wanting to be told that our religion believes you will be tortured for all eternity because of your disbelief?

I'd rather not believe that about anyone, but there are doubtlessly people who do believe that, and the point is to confront those people and their beliefs and question why they should believe such an appallingly amoral thing.

The truth of the matter is, we just don't know if there is a God or not and what he will do with disbelievers if anything.

Too many folks worry about what other think, why?

Because these kinds of beliefs affect people. They have a tangible affect on the real world, and play a powerful role in many people's day-to-day lives. Look at the missionary work in Africa, the American elections, the current global fascination with fundamentalist terrorism. What people believe affects their actions and their impact on the world, so it is of vital importance that we constantly challenge our beliefs - and the beliefs of others - in order to facilitate an understanding and stamp out the most poisonous ideologies that seek to separate and turn us against each other without justification.

Is this thread about making believers look silly or is it about worrying you could be wrong and might have to face consequences for all eternity?

If it is about portraying God as unjust or immoral what would be the point in that?

If there is an immoral God who wants to extract vengeance on you for your disbelief, what are you going to do about this?

I never have understood why people spend one moment worrying about where a God they don't believe in is going to send them?

Or why they would want to be concerned if God is fair or just? What would it matter?

Why are you getting so defensive? Why does there always have to be an ulterior motive in someone questioning a belief system?

 

[Dubio]

The God that I imagine does not care if you believe in Him or not. He would not care if you believe in Adam & Eve or not. He would wish for all to follow a path of growth, enlightenment and love towards others.

 

[cablescavenger]

If your belief in a god entails a hell, do you think that atheists are going there? If so, why? If not, why? If you think that atheists are going to hell, do you think that this is a just and moral system?

And if you also claim that your god is moral and just, and he sends atheists to hell, how do you justify his morality?

If there was a heaven and we ended up in it with you lot, then I would say "Yes we do end up in hell".

 

[sandy whitelinger]

How would this scenario play out for those you believe in a heaven or hell?

[youtube]PFJPtVRlI64[/youtube]

:seesaw:

Give me the Cliff's notes please!

 

[Zap Brannagan]

Yes, the bible says atheists go to hell.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[Sgloom]

It is not so much about disbelief in Christ as it is about what Christianity calls a "sinful life", which we all, Christians and non-Christians alike, live. As a matter of fact, pretty much all that we do is sinful in nature: either the intention, the action or both.

why has this god set up an existance where pretty much everything we do is sinful in nature? and then make it so you only have one option, christ, to save yourself, and make it all extremely enigmatic? its like it was set up for most of us to fail.
it would make more sense to me, if there was a god that does some kind of judgement, he would be judging us on our actions in life and not on what religion we believed, then again religion never made much sense to me.

and just because i dont happen to believe in this doesnt mean im not curious about it, or the thinking behind it. thats why im in these forums in the first place to better understand the thinking behind various religious and non religious beliefs.

 

[Cesar]

why has this god set up an existance where pretty much everything we do is sinful in nature? and then make it so you only have one option, christ, to save yourself, and make it all extremely enigmatic? its like it was set up for most of us to fail.
it would make more sense to me, if there was a god that does some kind of judgement, he would be judging us on our actions in life and not on what religion we believed, then again religion never made much sense to me.

and just because i dont happen to believe in this doesnt mean im not curious about it, or the thinking behind it. thats why im in these forums in the first place to better understand the thinking behind various religious and non religious beliefs.

You start from a false premise - that God allegedly created a sinful/fallen world. That, however, is not true, as He described the creation as being "very good" after completion. Adam and Eve, in their disobedience, led to sin entering the world and the utter corruption of all creation, which had formerly been "very good".

People, even Christians unfortunately, believe that simply believing there was some guy called Jesus saves them. I don't deny salvation by faith, but we cannot attribute such superficiality to it. It's more about what He accomplished on the cross - suffering hell in the place of His people, as He took the sins of believers upon Himself. He became sin and for now responsible for all sins - lies, greed, lust, violence, blasphemy, fraud, envy, murder and so on.

Judgment is not related to rituals, i.e. it's not that Christians are saved because they make the sign of the cross when passing by a church or something like that. The Bible declares that people can only sin continually, their intentions are totally depraved and they cannot do anything except for what is natural to them - evil. There are none that do good, but God and yes, God does judge people according to their deeds, which are wicked.

I think it's great that you have an interest in religion and similar subjects; I personally have no problem with it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You start from a false premise - that God allegedly created a sinful/fallen world. That, however, is not true, as He described the creation as being "very good" after completion. Adam and Eve, in their disobedience, led to sin entering the world and the utter corruption of all creation, which had formerly been "very good".

And how, exactly, did they do that? Did they create sin? Was it an oversight on God's part? Why would an all-powerful being allow his creation to be corrupted if it was not through his/her/its own design?

If God is the creator of everything, then God created sin. That's just how it is.

People, even Christians unfortunately, believe that simply believing there was some guy called Jesus saves them. I don't deny salvation by faith, but we cannot attribute such superficiality to it. It's more about what He accomplished on the cross - suffering hell in the place of His people, as He took the sins of believers upon Himself. He became sin and for now responsible for all sins - lies, greed, lust, violence, blasphemy, fraud, envy, murder and so on.

This is what doesn't make sense to me. Was Jesus God or not? If Jesus was God, then that whole "self-sacrifice" thing is just total nonsense. Why would God create an irredeemable world, then send himself down in human form to sacrifice himself to himself in order to free human beings of the rules that he, himself, created? That's totally ludicrous. And also, it's hardly a sacrifice if you get to be an all-powerful, all-knowing being after you die. If someone said to me "let me torture you and nail you to a cross until you die, but afterwards you become the immortal and omnipotent emperor of all the Universe" I would go and buy the nails myself.

Judgment is not related to rituals, i.e. it's not that Christians are saved because they make the sign of the cross when passing by a church or something like that. The Bible declares that people can only sin continually, their intentions are totally depraved and they cannot do anything except for what is natural to them - evil. There are none that do good, but God and yes, God does judge people according to their deeds, which are wicked.

And I personally think that's a very sick and cynical way of viewing the world, and any God that would allow such a world to exist is nothing but contemptable.

 

[Cesar]

And how, exactly, did they do that? Did they create sin? Was it an oversight on God's part? Why would an all-powerful being allow his creation to be corrupted if it was not through his/her/its own design?

If God is the creator of everything, then God created sin. That's just how it is.


This is what doesn't make sense to me. Was Jesus God or not? If Jesus was God, then that whole "self-sacrifice" thing is just total nonsense. Why would God create an irredeemable world, then send himself down in human form to sacrifice himself to himself in order to free human beings of the rules that he, himself, created? That's totally ludicrous. And also, it's hardly a sacrifice if you get to be an all-powerful, all-knowing being after you die. If someone said to me "let me torture you and nail you to a cross until you die, but afterwards you become the immortal and omnipotent emperor of all the Universe" I would go and buy the nails myself.


And I personally think that's a very sick and cynical way of viewing the world.

Sin entered the world through their disobedience. They, however, did not create sin. Evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat. So no, God did not create sin. It's just separation from His holiness.

Jesus is God. I do believe in predestination and that God wanted Adam and Eve to fall, although He didn't make them do it. It was their personal choice, not God's fault that they fell. I think the Father wanted to exalt the Son and glorify Him though His sacrifice. He did what is totally impossible for humans - save them from the Wrath of God because of their sins.God didn't create an irredeemable world; it's quite a nonsense, because the creation was perfect and there was nothing from which to be redeemed. Redemption became needed after people's choice to disobey their Creator. It was a sacrifice, since He died for our sins and suffered hell on the cross.

"And I personally think that's a very sick and cynical way of viewing the world."
How does that dictate whether something is true or not?

"and any God that would allow such a world to exist is nothing but contemptable."
It's called mercy. But you're right in a sense - we all deserve to perish by His holy wrath.

 

[Dubio]

Sin entered the world through their disobedience. They, however, did not create sin. Evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat. So no, God did not create sin. It's just separation from His holiness.

Jesus is God. I do believe in predestination and that God wanted Adam and Eve to fall, although He didn't make them do it. It was their personal choice, not God's fault that they fell. I think the Father wanted to exalt the Son and glorify Him though His sacrifice. He did what is totally impossible for humans - save them from the Wrath of God because of their sins.God didn't create an irredeemable world; it's quite a nonsense, because the creation was perfect and there was nothing from which to be redeemed. Redemption became needed after people's choice to disobey their Creator. It was a sacrifice, since He died for our sins and suffered hell on the cross.

"And I personally think that's a very sick and cynical way of viewing the world."
How does that dictate whether something is true or not?

"and any God that would allow such a world to exist is nothing but contemptable."
It's called mercy. But you're right in a sense - we all deserve to perish by His holy wrath.

Regarding Adam & Eve, if I recall correctly, God spent time with Adam & Eve. Adam & Eve must have loved God. God told them that if they ate of the fruit, they would surely die. Who in their right mind, pride or no pride, would disobey such a warning especially from a deity that they loved. I can't see anyone except a fool to ignore that warning. Adam & Eve were fools. God created Adam & Eve yet God gets 0.0000000000000000000000 blame.

 

[Cesar]

Regarding Adam & Eve, if I recall correctly, God spent time with Adam & Eve. Adam & Eve must have loved God. God told them that if they ate of the fruit, they would surely die. Who in their right mind, pride or no pride, would disobey such a warning especially from a deity that they loved. I can't see anyone except a fool to ignore that warning. Adam & Eve were fools. God created Adam & Eve yet God gets 0.0000000000000000000000 blame.

I don't find that so unimaginably foolish. We all disobey restrictions even from people we love, particularly when others 'tempt' us to do it, telling we should be independent and so on.