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Do Athiests have morals?

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
An explanation for what?
I've forgotten...
I have no idea why your saying I have those burdens.
Because in the real world if you persuade people to stop having abortions and they give birth to unwanted children since you persuaded them you also have to take care of the results of your powers of persuasion. They would be your responsibility because they would exist because of you.
No, that is why we say it is illegal. We cannot make any action actually wrong or right.
We don't make actions wrong or right. We call them wrong or right. We call murder wrong because we have a survival instinct and don't want to get murdered.
If God exists we can discover what is right or wrong but if he does not we are only left with ethical opinions.
Nope, we are left with the survival instinct and don't want to die so we call murder wrong. Of course if believing that a god can "make" murder wrong makes you less likely to commit murder that is beneficial for everybody. That's the purpose of religion.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I've forgotten...
I appreciate the honesty.

Because in the real world if you persuade people to stop having abortions and they give birth to unwanted children since you persuaded them you also have to take care of the results of your powers of persuasion. They would be your responsibility because they would exist because of you.
Has this miraculous event occurred in any reality that you know of? In this one I do not write laws, I only debate ideas. Can you name me a law maker who ever made a law that another law was made to make the former personal take personal responsibility for every effect of his earlier law? Are you taking responsibility for the deaths of millions of lives in the womb? How so?





We don't make actions wrong or right. We call them wrong or right. We call murder wrong because we have a survival instinct and don't want to get murdered. Nope, we are left with the survival instinct and don't want to die so we call murder wrong. Of course if believing that a god can "make" murder wrong makes you less likely to commit murder that is beneficial for everybody. That's the purpose of religion.
Now your getting it. We can call anything right or wrong, but we can't actually make anything right or wrong.

Was the purpose of Islam to stop killings, if so it has backfired terribly? In fact one of the most common arguments I get is the accusation that religion justifies too much killing. Chesterton abandoned atheism long before he became a Christian. He said he did so because the atheistic arguments against God constantly contradicted. God was too demanding and too passive, too warlike and too "turn the other cheek", too immoral and too morally demanding. He said it was impossible God was both a black mask on a white world and a white mask on a black world. Atheism alone was just internally incoherent.

I gotta go, have a good one.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Then abortion at the present is not excusable (if it ever could be) based on population. I am not going to get into hypothetical future scenarios we can't know, current reality is vexing enough.
I never said that abortion's functional purpose was to fight over population. I was responding to your claim that it would end us as a species.
No you can't know this. The science is all over the place. Regardless even having a genetic appetite for a thing is not justification alone in acting on it. I am an Indian and I have heard we are disposed to being alcoholics. Even if true that does not excuse my drinking. My point was our moral edicts are so fickle that we will reverse them if we feel threatened in general. I do not think it possible no matter what happens that homosexuality will end the human race. However it is still contradictory to what I am told is true of evolution.

What about what is likely to be the case? Homosexuality is not a choice but is a genetic abnormality? Sort of like living next to a nuclear plant and having our genes disposed to being attracted to psychopaths. It is not a choice but it is not something that should be allowed either. That is kind of a paradox.
To be clear, the science isn't all over the place. We know that people are born gay and its an innate quality that cannot be changed about them. They are homosexuals. And they will never not be a homosexual even if they were abstinent their whole life.

Alcoholics for example are not alcoholics unless they drink. Not really comparable

Though it is my opinion that homosexuals should not only be allowed but be treated as equals in every way to heterosexuals.
I did not get this.
Science has now allowed us to breed without the need of actual intercourse.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Has this miraculous event occurred in any reality that you know of? In this one I do not write laws, I only debate ideas. Can you name me a law maker who ever made a law that another law was made to make the former personal take personal responsibility for every effect of his earlier law? Are you taking responsibility for the deaths of millions of lives in the womb? How so?
Because of course I don't argue that every pregnant woman without exception should have an abortion. If I did, I would also have to explain how to deal with all the negative consequences. But you argue that women should give birth to all children, unwanted or not. It's also your responsibility then to have a plan for how to deal with all the negative consequences. Do you never consider reality when you "debate ideas"?
Now your getting it. We can call anything right or wrong, but we can't actually make anything right or wrong.
True. Evolution and natural selection did that for us. Evolution and natural selection is an objective process and selected for the survival instinct. So the survival instinct is objectively right for us to have. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. So we call murder wrong because it is objectively wrong according to evolution and natural selection.
Chesterton abandoned atheism long before he became a Christian. He said he did so because the atheistic arguments against God constantly contradicted. God was too demanding and too passive, too warlike and too "turn the other cheek", too immoral and too morally demanding. He said it was impossible God was both a black mask on a white world and a white mask on a black world. Atheism alone was just internally incoherent.
Atheism is just an absence of belief in gods. How can atheism possibly be incoherent? A person presenting arguments against the existence of gods is an anti-theist. What's the Difference Between Atheism and Anti-Theism?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I never said that abortion's functional purpose was to fight over population. I was responding to your claim that it would end us as a species.
And my claim was in response to someone claiming it is justifiable because we are over crowded. I don't remember claiming it would end us as a species anyway, I think I said it contradictory to evolutions survival at al costs label.

To be clear, the science isn't all over the place. We know that people are born gay and its an innate quality that cannot be changed about them. They are homosexuals. And they will never not be a homosexual even if they were abstinent their whole life.
I did not find that in my research. I saw a lot of research suggesting it was choice, and even that it was not a choice but abnormal. But I don't want to get to far afield here. In fact I want to phase out the homosexual aspect of this discussion all together. I am burned out on it.

Alcoholics for example are not alcoholics unless they drink. Not really comparable
I am not talking about the term alcoholics. I am saying that even being genetically disposed to liking a thing does not justify actualizing that desire. I naturally like promiscuity, but my liking it does not justify my practicing it.

Though it is my opinion that homosexuals should not only be allowed but be treated as equals in every way to heterosexuals.
The only way human lives can make a claim to equality that is grounded on anything sufficient is in God. Look at the declaration of independence, Martin Luther King's promissory note, Gandhi's justifications, equality does not find purchase in evolution, but God. Evolution never made two equal things.

Science has now allowed us to breed without the need of actual intercourse.
I can certainly allow that this process can be used by the wealthier of societies but I don't know why your mentioning this. What does this prove?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Because of course I don't argue that every pregnant woman without exception should have an abortion. If I did, I would also have to explain how to deal with all the negative consequences. But you argue that women should give birth to all children, unwanted or not. It's also your responsibility then to have a plan for how to deal with all the negative consequences. Do you never consider reality when you "debate ideas"?
It is you who are operating in a hypothetical. I don't write laws in actual reality, it does not look like what I would like to be true is going to be true any time soon in actual reality, and to debate whether a thing is morally justifiable does not require cost benefit analysis to resolve in actual reality. I am in reality, come join me.




True. Evolution and natural selection did that for us. Evolution and natural selection is an objective process and selected for the survival instinct. So the survival instinct is objectively right for us to have. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. So we call murder wrong because it is objectively wrong according to evolution and natural selection.
I knew it was to optimistic that you had caught on. It is not an objective truth we should use evolution for any moral or legal code. I think we can do a lot better than patterning our behavior on a cold, unintelligent, and amoral natural mechanism which does not care what is right or wrong. So even if we can establish what is true of evolution (and whatever it likely would be is contradictory, justifying inconsistent behavior) it is not true that we should adopt any behavioral pattern based upon it. The only thing we can say is what action is or is not consistent with evolution. We cannot say our behavior should be based on evolution. You can not get right, wrong, should, or justice from any natural entity or process. No matter how many objective facts you can find in it, it does not contain those.




Atheism is just an absence of belief in gods. How can atheism possibly be incoherent? A person presenting arguments against the existence of gods is an anti-theist. What's the Difference Between Atheism and Anti-Theism?
I was talking about atheistic arguments, which if atheism is built upon them would also be incoherent. I gave you Chesterton's take on it. Here it is in full (it is worth reading, history has produced only a handful of wordsmiths like him, he is called the apostle of common sense):

There is nothing new in this atheistic dishonesty. The great GK Chesterton was, in part, converted from agnosticism by the contradictions he found in the attacks on Christianity a century ago, as he relates in the sixth chapter of his masterpiece Orthodoxy,

As I read and re-read all the non-Christian or anti-Christian accounts of the faith... a slow and awful impression grew gradually but graphically upon my mind -- the impression that Christianity must be a most extraordinary thing. For not only (as I understood) had Christianity the most flaming vices, but it had apparently a mystical talent for combining vices which seemed inconsistent with each other. It was attacked on all sides and for all contradictory reasons. No sooner had one rationalist demonstrated that it was far too the east than another demonstrated with equal clearness that it was far too the west. No sooner had my anger died down at its angular and aggressive square-ness than I was called up again to notice and condemn its enervating and sensual roundness. Chesterton then goes on to provide some examples that he encountered while still "a complete agnostic," first one similar to our dilemma above,
I was much moved by the eloquent attack on Christianity as a thing of inhuman gloom....a thing purely pessimistic and opposed to life... that it prevented men, by morbid tears and terrors, from seeking joy and liberty in the bosom of nature. But another accusation was that it comforted men with a fictitious providence, and put them in a pink-and-white nursery.... One rationalist had hardly done calling Christianity a nightmare before another began to call it a fool's paradise. This puzzled me... Christianity could not at once be the black mask on a white world, and also the white mask on a black world. The state of Christianity could not be at once so comfortable that he was a coward to cling to it, and so uncomfortable that he was a fool to stand in it. Chesterton goes on to site another example common in his (as well as our) day, I felt a strong case against Christianity lay in the charge that there is something timid, monkish, and unmanly about all that is called "Christian," especially in its attitude towards resistance and fighting....it did seem... that there was something weak and over patient about Christian counsels... (which)... made plausible the accusation that Christianity was an attempt to make man too like a sheep.... I turned the next page in my agnostic manual, and my brain turned up-side down. Now I found that I was to hate Christianity not for fighting too little, but for fighting too much. Christianity, it seemed, was the mother of wars. Christianity had deluged the world with blood. I had got thoroughly angry with the Christian, because he never was angry. And now I was told to be angry with him because his anger had been the most huge and horrible thing in human history. After providing more examples (the whole chapter is well worth reading, as is the whole book, and well, pretty much everything the man wrote) Chesterton concludes,

It looked not so much as if Christianity was bad enough to include any vices, but rather as if any stick was good enough to beat Christianity with. What again could this astonishing thing be like which people were so anxious to contradict, that in doing so they did not mind contradicting themselves?


GK Chesterton


Which brings us back to our "new atheist" friends. Perhaps it isn't the Christian God who is inexplicably the vilest and most disgusting character to ever be dreamed up by man and simultaneously the "invisible friend" of weak minds clinging desperately to a friendly-face in a menacing and foreboding universe. Perhaps it is rather the case that any argument is still "good enough" as long as it is wielded against Christianity.

Adoro Ergo Sum: On the Willingness of Atheists to Contradict Themselves if it just Attacks the Faith
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I knew it was to optimistic that you had caught on. It is not an objective truth we should use evolution for any moral or legal code. I think we can do a lot better than patterning our behavior on a cold, unintelligent, and amoral natural mechanism which does not care what is right or wrong.
Our moral codes are based on evolution and instincts like the survival instinct. Except for some specific religious moral codes the rest of the religious moral codes are just copied from evolutionary moral codes such as the Golden Rule.
The only thing we can say is what action is or is not consistent with evolution. We cannot say our behavior should be based on evolution. You can not get right, wrong, should, or justice from any natural entity or process. No matter how many objective facts you can find in it, it does not contain those.
Then next time you see somebody instinctively run out of the way of an oncoming car tell him that he shouldn't have, that he should have just let himself get run over, that it would have been right for him to let himself get run over.
I was talking about atheistic arguments, which if atheism is built upon them would also be incoherent. I gave you Chesterton's take on it. Here it is in full (it is worth reading, history has produced only a handful of wordsmiths like him, he is called the apostle of common sense):
I can't find anything useful here.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It is you who are operating in a hypothetical. I don't write laws in actual reality, it does not look like what I would like to be true is going to be true any time soon in actual reality, and to debate whether a thing is morally justifiable does not require cost benefit analysis to resolve in actual reality. I am in reality, come join me.




I knew it was to optimistic that you had caught on. It is not an objective truth we should use evolution for any moral or legal code. I think we can do a lot better than patterning our behavior on a cold, unintelligent, and amoral natural mechanism which does not care what is right or wrong. So even if we can establish what is true of evolution (and whatever it likely would be is contradictory, justifying inconsistent behavior) it is not true that we should adopt any behavioral pattern based upon it. The only thing we can say is what action is or is not consistent with evolution. We cannot say our behavior should be based on evolution. You can not get right, wrong, should, or justice from any natural entity or process. No matter how many objective facts you can find in it, it does not contain those.




I was talking about atheistic arguments, which if atheism is built upon them would also be incoherent. I gave you Chesterton's take on it. Here it is in full (it is worth reading, history has produced only a handful of wordsmiths like him, he is called the apostle of common sense):

There is nothing new in this atheistic dishonesty. The great GK Chesterton was, in part, converted from agnosticism by the contradictions he found in the attacks on Christianity a century ago, as he relates in the sixth chapter of his masterpiece Orthodoxy,

As I read and re-read all the non-Christian or anti-Christian accounts of the faith... a slow and awful impression grew gradually but graphically upon my mind -- the impression that Christianity must be a most extraordinary thing. For not only (as I understood) had Christianity the most flaming vices, but it had apparently a mystical talent for combining vices which seemed inconsistent with each other. It was attacked on all sides and for all contradictory reasons. No sooner had one rationalist demonstrated that it was far too the east than another demonstrated with equal clearness that it was far too the west. No sooner had my anger died down at its angular and aggressive square-ness than I was called up again to notice and condemn its enervating and sensual roundness. Chesterton then goes on to provide some examples that he encountered while still "a complete agnostic," first one similar to our dilemma above,
I was much moved by the eloquent attack on Christianity as a thing of inhuman gloom....a thing purely pessimistic and opposed to life... that it prevented men, by morbid tears and terrors, from seeking joy and liberty in the bosom of nature. But another accusation was that it comforted men with a fictitious providence, and put them in a pink-and-white nursery.... One rationalist had hardly done calling Christianity a nightmare before another began to call it a fool's paradise. This puzzled me... Christianity could not at once be the black mask on a white world, and also the white mask on a black world. The state of Christianity could not be at once so comfortable that he was a coward to cling to it, and so uncomfortable that he was a fool to stand in it. Chesterton goes on to site another example common in his (as well as our) day, I felt a strong case against Christianity lay in the charge that there is something timid, monkish, and unmanly about all that is called "Christian," especially in its attitude towards resistance and fighting....it did seem... that there was something weak and over patient about Christian counsels... (which)... made plausible the accusation that Christianity was an attempt to make man too like a sheep.... I turned the next page in my agnostic manual, and my brain turned up-side down. Now I found that I was to hate Christianity not for fighting too little, but for fighting too much. Christianity, it seemed, was the mother of wars. Christianity had deluged the world with blood. I had got thoroughly angry with the Christian, because he never was angry. And now I was told to be angry with him because his anger had been the most huge and horrible thing in human history. After providing more examples (the whole chapter is well worth reading, as is the whole book, and well, pretty much everything the man wrote) Chesterton concludes,

It looked not so much as if Christianity was bad enough to include any vices, but rather as if any stick was good enough to beat Christianity with. What again could this astonishing thing be like which people were so anxious to contradict, that in doing so they did not mind contradicting themselves?


GK Chesterton


Which brings us back to our "new atheist" friends. Perhaps it isn't the Christian God who is inexplicably the vilest and most disgusting character to ever be dreamed up by man and simultaneously the "invisible friend" of weak minds clinging desperately to a friendly-face in a menacing and foreboding universe. Perhaps it is rather the case that any argument is still "good enough" as long as it is wielded against Christianity.

Adoro Ergo Sum: On the Willingness of Atheists to Contradict Themselves if it just Attacks the Faith
It's weird. You say that we "can do better than fashioning our morals" on Evolution, but I'm not sure that anyone would argue this, and I can certainly say that no one has argued for it on this thread. Using Evolution as a mechanism for explaning something is completely different than using Evolution as a basis for morality. Evolution is always used as nothing momre than an explanation. Only the mentally unbalanced would dare to design anything based on it. And, even in those rare cases, unless they specifically state that their reasoninig was based on Evolution as a scientific law (which it most certainly is not), it is absurd to associate their methods with it merely because there are similarities.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Our moral codes are based on evolution and instincts like the survival instinct. Except for some specific religious moral codes the rest of the religious moral codes are just copied from evolutionary moral codes such as the Golden Rule.Then next time you see somebody instinctively run out of the way of an oncoming car tell him that he shouldn't have, that he should have just let himself get run over, that it would have been right for him to let himself get run over.I can't find anything useful here.
What do you mean by morality being based on Evolution (sorry 1Robin, I guess I was wrong)? Do you mean that societal evolution would be a plausible explanation for these concepts? Because, that is wholly different than basing moral codes on Evolution. I would argue that nothing is "based" on evolution. These kinds of things can only be a "result" of evolution.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
What do you mean by morality being based on Evolution (sorry 1Robin, I guess I was wrong)? Do you mean that societal evolution would be a plausible explanation for these concepts? Because, that is wholly different than basing moral codes on Evolution. I would argue that nothing is "based" on evolution. These kinds of things can only be a "result" of evolution.
1. We have a survival instinct.
2. Survival good, death bad.
3. What is beneficial for survival we call "moral".
4. What is detrimental to survival we call "immoral".
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
1. We have a survival instinct.
2. Survival good, death bad.
3. What is beneficial for survival we call "moral".
4. What is detrimental to survival we call "immoral".
Ok, you didn't answer my question. Those points would signifiy morals based on survival instinct, not evolution. Evolution was the cause, not the basis. Does that make sense?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
"Evolution" is defined as "the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth." How can morals be based on a process?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Ok, you didn't answer my question. Those points would signifiy morals based on survival instinct, not evolution. Evolution was the cause, not the basis. Does that make sense?
Evolution and natural selection "evolved" the survival instinct. Because of the survival instinct organisms subconsciously instinctively see survival as "good" and death as "bad". Cooperation increased our chances of survival. Some behaviours were more beneficial for survival than others and were selected for. Like the Golden Rule. We call these behaviours moral and the detrimental behaviours immoral.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Our moral codes are based on evolution and instincts like the survival instinct. Except for some specific religious moral codes the rest of the religious moral codes are just copied from evolutionary moral codes such as the Golden Rule.
No they are not. I have asked you many times to find me a single society who recorded that their societal laws were purposely based on evolution. Since you did not even attempt it, I volunteered that Hitler's Germany was the closest by far any society ever came and it was so a horrific failure it did not last a decade and even it was not a pure form of what you describe. I would even bet no society ever will do so.




Then next time you see somebody instinctively run out of the way of an oncoming car tell him that he shouldn't have, that he should have just let himself get run over, that it would have been right for him to let himself get run over.I can't find anything useful here.
We are not discussing what is subjectively true. You keep trying to suggest subjective goals are actually objective. Of course that is useless.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
No they are not. I have asked you many times to find me a single society who recorded that their societal laws were purposely based on evolution. Since you did not even attempt it,
Every society bases its laws on what is perceived to be beneficial for the survival of the society and its population. And our survival instinct is a result of evolution and natural selection.
I volunteered that Hitler's Germany was the closest by far any society ever came and it was so a horrific failure it did not last a decade and even it was not a pure form of what you describe. I would even bet no society ever will do so.
He acted in a manner he thought would be beneficial for the survival of his society. He simply thought wrong. If you attack others they will retaliate in self defence and you will end up reducing your chances of survival instead of increasing them. So his behaviour was against evolution and natural selection.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
And my claim was in response to someone claiming it is justifiable because we are over crowded. I don't remember claiming it would end us as a species anyway, I think I said it contradictory to evolutions survival at al costs label.
Evolution seeks the survival of the species. Evolution in reality doesn't give a crap about the individual. In fact killing off certain individuals would be necessary as it is survival of the fittest. Though this isn't the justification for abortion. The justification for abortion is entirely separate.
I did not find that in my research. I saw a lot of research suggesting it was choice, and even that it was not a choice but abnormal. But I don't want to get to far afield here. In fact I want to phase out the homosexual aspect of this discussion all together. I am burned out on it.
I don't think there is anything I can say to evolve your opinion. Its stuck till something life changing happens to you. I will say your research is absolutely dead wrong and I very much encourage you to do research in accredited sources. Even scholarly ones. If you keep going to pro-conservative broken record sites then of course you will find what you are looking for. But it doesn't make it correct.

This isn't part of the debate but I would like to see you have a candid discussion where you simply listen or ask questions without assuming anything with a gay person. I am sure there are people on this site that would be willing to do that. It would be better in person though. But this is an experience I think you could benefit from.
I am not talking about the term alcoholics. I am saying that even being genetically disposed to liking a thing does not justify actualizing that desire. I naturally like promiscuity, but my liking it does not justify my practicing it.
True. Typically all things are well till we have a reason to avoid it. So far there isn't a reason to avoid homosexual intercourse if one is homosexual and following precautions. Though alcoholism itself is an addiction. There is sexual addiction but homosexuality and abortion are not "addictions".
The only way human lives can make a claim to equality that is grounded on anything sufficient is in God. Look at the declaration of independence, Martin Luther King's promissory note, Gandhi's justifications, equality does not find purchase in evolution, but God. Evolution never made two equal things.
I disagree. I think we can treat everyone equally. On a personal level this will never happen since we intrinsically make assumptions and judgement at all times.But we don't desire that everyone be exactly equal. I don't know who desires that (communists maybe). I desire equal "rights" or "treatment". Inhibiting discrimination. That all can be done easily without god. Hell I am doing it right now. And even if we did put something based on god it doesn't matter which god you chose you are already being discriminatory by the very definition.
I can certainly allow that this process can be used by the wealthier of societies but I don't know why your mentioning this. What does this prove?
That even if we were a 100% homosexual society we wouldn't die out. Lack of population problems are irrelevant.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Evolution and natural selection "evolved" the survival instinct. Because of the survival instinct organisms subconsciously instinctively see survival as "good" and death as "bad". Cooperation increased our chances of survival. Some behaviours were more beneficial for survival than others and were selected for. Like the Golden Rule. We call these behaviours moral and the detrimental behaviours immoral.
I agree, but this doesn't show that morals were based on evolution, just that morals evolved through evolution. You showed it as the cause, not the basis.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But we don't desire that everyone be exactly equal. I don't know who desires that (communists maybe).

I'm not sure how useful this will be to this discussion, but it is only in really authoritarian and utopian ones when applying absolute ethics, typically from religious sources aim for exact equality. This is often ridiculed as "barracks communism" because of how authoritarian it has to be.
Most Communists struggle with the problem of social evolution; some people are more 'advanced' and other less so in a communist society. There remains competition between these higher and lower forms by a process of "creative destruction" (as happens technologically in capitalist societies). This is why communist societies have to be 'democratic' (in principle) so as to try to solve the perpetual instability of social evolution. there is a constant struggle between individual growth and wider collective change which makes "exact" equality impossible. such equality assumes a final and definite state or 'utopia', which is impossible because man keeps growing indefinitely.
So under Communism people are not equal in the sense of being "the same". equality refers to equal rights to access resources by common ownership or more broadly 'unity' through a collective social organization. i.e. making people identical is considered immoral as the suppression of individuality and social evolution.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I'm not sure how useful this will be to this discussion, but it is only in really authoritarian and utopian ones when applying absolute ethics, typically from religious sources aim for exact equality. This is often ridiculed as "barracks communism" because of how authoritarian it has to be.
Most Communists struggle with the problem of social evolution; some people are more 'advanced' and other less so in a communist society. There remains competition between these higher and lower forms by a process of "creative destruction" (as happens technologically in capitalist societies). This is why communist societies have to be 'democratic' (in principle) so as to try to solve the perpetual instability of social evolution. there is a constant struggle between individual growth and wider collective change which makes "exact" equality impossible. such equality assumes a final and definite state or 'utopia', which is impossible because man keeps growing indefinitely.
So under Communism people are not equal in the sense of being "the same". equality refers to equal rights to access resources by common ownership or more broadly 'unity' through a collective social organization. i.e. making people identical is considered immoral as the suppression of individuality and social evolution.
Thank you for the clarification. I was unsure of the exact stance held by modern communists on the subject so that is why I tentatively put "maybe" on the end of that.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
It's weird. You say that we "can do better than fashioning our morals" on Evolution, but I'm not sure that anyone would argue this, and I can certainly say that no one has argued for it on this thread.
I have seen people do so quite a bit. Many times I respond to a specific claim, others I address what is true given a world view.

Using Evolution as a mechanism for explaning something is completely different than using Evolution as a basis for morality. Evolution is always used as nothing momre than an explanation. Only the mentally unbalanced would dare to design anything based on it. And, even in those rare cases, unless they specifically state that their reasoninig was based on Evolution as a scientific law (which it most certainly is not), it is absurd to associate their methods with it merely because there are similarities.
Yes I know the difference. What I cannot figure out why my ontological statements about the nature of morality given God or minus God are responded to by theories about how we came to believe this or that as a result of evolution. That is an epistemological issue and not what my primary claims have been about.

You are certainly doing nothing wrong by doing so, but you must be careful when you respond to arguments I make to another person. I may have a long debate with many things already stated that are part of the context but you would not be aware of the unless you read up on the whole debate, I also may know and what they believe from other threads or from years ago and you would not be aware of that. BT all means you can comment on anything I say to anyone just keep this in mind.
 
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