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Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Our foreshore here offers a different range of benefits to .... say........ Bondi.

In S.W. Blows (the prevailing winds) this foreshore is one of the big centres for Kite-Boarding folks. On even the coldest, windiest winter days their kites can be seen way out offshore, racing across the horizon and lifting the boarders high up in the air as they change tacks. Modern wet and dry suits make British waters accessible all year round. Must be more exciting than a surf board, for sure.

I expect that visiting Australians probably want to come here.... :D

My analogy held the assumption that the beaches were identical, but you guys have to go off comparing ... geocentricity ... the Canadian inland freshwater beaches on our huge lakes are really something else. Fine sand, clean water, and no sharks.

But back to the topic ... in retrospect, it's probably a really good thing that archaic language texts can't be translated into modern English, or any other modern language. Archaic language, archaic religion. That way far less people come to know of it.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It's clear, from your excellent analysis, (and my reading comprehension skills) that the Baha'i faith interpretation of both Christianity and Islam differs quite substantially from both the Christian and Islamic interpretations of their respective faiths. But these faiths all fall under the same general category of Abrahamic. So if they mangled that, imagine how much they mangle faiths like mine, or Buddhism, which are an entirely differing paradigm. I've read a few different short articles here and there and frankly, it's really quite out there. But the Christians and Islamics also have a very incomplete understanding of Sanatana Dharma, so I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
I started reading the posts on the "Karma" thread. After I catch up here, I'm going back to that one.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I would offer that the Christains have accepted the progression and then Muslims excepted another progression and then the Bab and Baha'u'llah have explained how it is a progression.

I saw a post recently where someone had posted what each Faith brought to humanity and how each builds upon the first.

Regards Tony
Hmmm? Builds or points out where the previous religion and it's leaders went wrong?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
CG all things and thoughts done in the spirit of friendship, is great.

Baha'u'llah had said he will raise people that are solid in Faith. It has naught to do with me as far as I can see . I have no idea how I went from no Faith to strong Faith, except by deciding to read the first book offered to me called 'God Loves Laughter' by William Sears.

I did so at a time when I was very angry with my wife for taking on a Faith. I guess letting go of that preconceived anger was the turning point.

Regards Tony
You know I heard Willian Sears speak a couple of times. Also, a hand of the cause named something like Furutan. I forget, but it was at a Baha'i Summer Camp in British Columbia in the early 70's.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Hmmm? Builds or points out where the previous religion and it's leaders went wrong?

Well if it went right, why a succession of Messengers/Prophets, each telling us we need to change. Why was the correction of our ways needed with all other Messengers?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You know I heard Willian Sears speak a couple of times. Also, a hand of the cause named something like Furutan. I forget, but it was at a Baha'i Summer Camp in British Columbia in the early 70's.

Two great men that did a lot for the Faith, but also a lot in life as well. I am a William Sears inspired Baha'i, as it was His book that changed my life. 'God loves Laughter'! My wife gave it for me to read.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
My analogy held the assumption that the beaches were identical, but you guys have to go off comparing ... geocentricity ... the Canadian inland freshwater beaches on our huge lakes are really something else. Fine sand, clean water, and no sharks.
I was only mentioning that North Kent Beaches are sexier, more exciting, safer, freer and more spacious than Oz beaches...... is all
Who is comparing? :p

But back to the topic ... in retrospect, it's probably a really good thing that archaic language texts can't be translated into modern English, or any other modern language. Archaic language, archaic religion. That way far less people come to know of it.
Hang on Vinayaka....... it must be in the middle of the night where you are, so just wait until you've woken up and had a first morning beverage, because it looks as if you're suggesting, above, that mankind does not need to discover more about the ancients....

Imagine what we have gained by the discovery that enables a translation of hieroglyphics (thank the Lord for Google-spell, just there). .... ?

Accurate archaeology and history must surely have great importance for humanity? I only wish that the Mayans, Aztecs, All the American Indians.......... every people who have ever lived, anywhere, could pass down info on their cultures, beliefs, laws, etc.... the lot.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I was only mentioning that North Kent Beaches are sexier, more exciting, safer, freer and more spacious than Oz beaches...... is all
Who is comparing? :p


Hang on Vinayaka....... it must be in the middle of the night where you are, so just wait until you've woken up and had a first morning beverage, because it looks as if you're suggesting, above, that mankind does not need to discover more about the ancients....

Imagine what we have gained by the discovery that enables a translation of hieroglyphics (thank the Lord for Google-spell, just there). .... ?

Accurate archaeology and history must surely have great importance for humanity? I only wish that the Mayans, Aztecs, All the American Indians.......... every people who have ever lived, anywhere, could pass down info on their cultures, beliefs, laws, etc.... the lot.
You missed the point there, OB. Yes of course there is wisdom in some ancient texts. But the ones that have brutality against the masses, 'kill the infidels' and all that surely aren't worth updating. They don't help modern society. But best the horrid unethical nasty ones are left untranslated. My faith would be far better off if nobody had ever translated the laws of Manu. The Vedas, on the other hand ... sure.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You missed the point there, OB. Yes of course there is wisdom in some ancient texts. But the ones that have brutality against the masses, 'kill the infidels' and all that surely aren't worth updating. They don't help modern society. But best the horrid unethical nasty ones are left untranslated. My faith would be far better off if nobody had ever translated the laws of Manu. The Vedas, on the other hand ... sure.
Oh go on....... let's discover and translate the lot...... if only.
It's more than just about the truth of humanity, but about our mistakes and outright inhumanities.

I am interested in the Mosaic Laws at present, and am seeking more info from any detached sources.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Haven't heard from you in a while. How's thing going?

I have to lay low for a while because RF now has a Baha'i MOD ... Just kidding.:D:p

I've been busy with a project at work. I have to work extra hours at home. But soon it will be finished and I'll be more active.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I have to lay low for a while because RF now has a Baha'i MOD ... Just kidding.:D:p

I've been busy with a project at work. I have to work extra hours at home. But soon it will be finished and I'll be more active.
Great. Thanks for stopping by. Your wisdom is greatly missed... by some, maybe not all.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well if it went right, why a succession of Messengers/Prophets, each telling us we need to change. Why was the correction of our ways needed with all other Messengers?

Regards Tony
Well definitely their is a progression. But, it's from the successor's pov. Judaism does fine without needing to be superseded by Christianity. Same with Christianity, it doesn't need Islam. And then Islam doesn't need the Baha'i Faith. They all know things have gotten off and there have been changes made to get their religions back on track. So, there is an important progression within each religion as it tries to accommodate modern times.

So, since people aren't perfect and probably won't be perfect in the near future, how will the Baha'i Faith prevent problems from within happening? Especially since there have already been problems. Mainly the covenant-breakers. There other thing that might happen is that the Baha'i Faith gets bigger but not big enough to make the world into one big harmonious place? That they only join in with the other major religions as being a part of a world that has many diverse religions? 'Cause isn't that all that has happened in the past? The new one just gets added into the mix.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Well definitely their is a progression. But, it's from the successor's pov. Judaism does fine without needing to be superseded by Christianity. Same with Christianity, it doesn't need Islam. And then Islam doesn't need the Baha'i Faith. They all know things have gotten off and there have been changes made to get their religions back on track. So, there is an important progression within each religion as it tries to accommodate modern times.

So, since people aren't perfect and probably won't be perfect in the near future, how will the Baha'i Faith prevent problems from within happening? Especially since there have already been problems. Mainly the covenant-breakers. There other thing that might happen is that the Baha'i Faith gets bigger but not big enough to make the world into one big harmonious place? That they only join in with the other major religions as being a part of a world that has many diverse religions? 'Cause isn't that all that has happened in the past? The new one just gets added into the mix.

That is a possibility. I would suggest it will not be long now when you see the many Christian denominations, Islam as a whole and countries such as India amongst a few other countries, start to see the potential within this Faith and thus arise to try to stop the influence.

It is because we do not actively proselytize that the growth is slow and steady.

The Faith will hold firm against division. That is a key to this Faith. One can not break the covenant. Why we will get it wrong, is yet unknown. I guess into the future, personalities may take over? The process of those mistakes unfold over centuries and they become engraved into our mindset, thus hard to change.

There will be a substantial calamity, to me I now see no other way, people just do not want God in their lives, especially here in Australia. The lucky country has created a lifestyle where people see God is not needed. That lifestyle will crumble and I have no doubt about it. At the same time I do not worry about it at all, I do long for the change to happen, but first that must be my own self.

Regards Tony
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
The argument provided that Muhammad who revealed the Quran from 610 to 632 AD refers to an extant Gospel is extremely weak IMHO. It appearsd a fabrication of Muslim scholars only. If it were really true that the Christians had a false gospel Muhammad would have made it clear. He didn't, but instead on occasion admonishes the Christians for not following it.

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). (Surah Al-Imran, 3)

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, (Surah Al-Imran, 48)

Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding? (Surah Al-Imran, 65)

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 46)

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 47)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side.There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 66)

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy|.But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 68)

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother.Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave.And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 110)

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them.So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." (Surah Al-A‘raf, 157)

Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah.then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. (Surah At-Tawba, 111)

Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward. (Surah Al-Fath, 29)

Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah. but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors. (Surah Al-Hadid, 27)


Scholarship of the Bible is to be welcomed. The fact is that the Gospels were all written between 66 to 100 AD so within 30 - 70 years of the crucifixion of Christ. The Gospel of John is likely to have been written by the apostle John but we can not be certain. It is likely that at least the synoptics whose authors collaborated were written by anonymous authors. All the early Christian writers/scholars were unanimous in thier acceptance and authenticity of the four gospels. Although the case for authenticity for the Gospels is not as strong as for the Quran, I have no problem accepting the authenticity of the Gospels in substance although we can not affirm every word written was the exact words Jesus spoke. It obviously suits the agenda of the Muslims to find as many holes as possible for the both the Gospel and Torah to reject them as corrupted as they have the Quran they see has superseded the Gospels. The Muslim position in regards the Gospels and Torah being corupt is well known and rightly rejected by most Christians and Baha'is IMHO.

Hello Adrian.

Sorry for the delay.

You’ve offered much to think about. It might be advisable to munch this particular elephant one piece at a time.

You write: ‘The argument provided that Muhammad who revealed the Quran from 610 to 632 AD refers to an extant Gospel is extremely weak IMHO. It appears a fabrication of Muslim scholars only.’

I know of no Islamic scholar who teaches that the ʾInjīl is extant. I’d be grateful for any help you can give. My understand is that the ʾInjīl has been lost (although certain elements may yet be found in the Gospels, for example the Sermon of the Mount).


You write: ‘It obviously suits the agenda of the Muslims to find as many holes as possible for the both the Gospel and Torah to reject them as corrupted as they have the Quran they see has superseded the Gospels. The Muslim position in regards the Gospels and Torah being corrupt is well known and rightly rejected by most Christians and Baha'is IMHO.’

The Qur’an does not ‘supersede the Gospels’, as you claim. It merely corrects errors that have distorted the message given to Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). I’ve already mentioned certain literal corruptions of the Gospels:

The spurious ‘Comma Ioanneum’: ‘…added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect . . . ’ (Anthony and Richard Hanson: ‘Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith; page 171)’.

What is this if not corruption?’

The ‘pericope adulterae’; a source of much controversy for decades. I have pointed out that the King James Version (based on the Textus Receptus) includes the ‘pericope adulterae’ as an original part of the Gospel. On the other hand, more modern translations – such as the ESV, NIV, RV; NRVS; and GNB – include the ‘pericope adulterae’, but bracket it as not original; while others print it in a smaller font (TNIV), or place it at the end of the gospel (REB), all with notes of explanation. This is because the story is not found in the earliest Greek manuscripts.

What is this if not corruption?’

The various endings of Mark: Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9-20 immediately after verse 8. At least one manuscript inserts additional material after verse 14; some manuscripts include, after verse 8, the following: ‘But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.’ These manuscripts then continue with verses 9-20.

What is this if not corruption?’

But there is a more pernicious form of corruption:

For many years there has been broad agreement among New Testament scholars that the historical Yeshua did not lay claim to deity; that he did not understand himself to be God, or God the Son, incarnate.

Here are some quotes for you to think about:

'Jesus did not claim deity for himself' (Archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey: ‘Jesus and the Living Past’).

'Any case for a "high" Christology that depended on the authenticity of the alleged claims of Jesus about himself, especially in the Fourth Gospel, would indeed be precarious' (C.F.D Moule – an Anglican priest and theologian: ‘The Origin of Christology).

‘There was no real evidence in the earliest Jesus tradition of what could fairly be called a consciousness of divinity' (James Dunn – New Testament scholar, and minister of the Church of Scotland: ‘Christology in the Making’).

‘It is no longer possible to defend the divinity of Jesus by reference to the claims of Jesus' (Canon Brian Hebblethwaite - a staunch supported of Nicene/Chalcedonian Christology: ‘ The Incarnation).

‘There is good evidence to suggest that (Jesus) never saw himself as a suitable object of worship…..(it is) impossible to base any claim for Christ's divinity on his consciousness once we abandon the traditional portrait as reflected in a literal understanding of St. John's Gospel' (David Brown – an Anglican priest and another staunch supporter of Nicene/Chalcedonian Christology: ‘The Divine Trinity).

About fifty years ago I had a colleague who was a Biblical Unitarian (I was a Trinitarian). We discussed (often) both the trinity and incarnation. He was older than I, and very well acquainted with the Bible. On one occasion I became angry with him (I was fiery in those days!). I grabbed my Bible and thrust it under his nose. ‘This is my Book’, I hissed. ‘What’s yours?’

He smiled, and gently removed the book from my hand. ‘This!’, he replied. I was stunned. How could this man read the very same book as I, and yet reach conclusions so opposed to my own? He was no fool; neither was he perverse. He was both genuine and honest; a decent man who lived his faith according to his conscience. And yet, he did not, could not, believe what I believed.

What we have here is corruption by interpretation: Two people read the very same scriptures. One interprets these in a way that makes God a Trinity, and Yeshua ‘wholly God, and wholly Man’. The other’s interpretation sees no justification for the notion of a trinity; and regards Yeshua as just a man; in no way divine. Which interpretation is correct, and which is the corruption?

In šāʾ Allāh, I will return to your other comments, once we are done with the above.

Have a great day, and very best regards.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
I would offer that the Christains have accepted the progression and then Muslims excepted another progression and then the Bab and Baha'u'llah have explained how it is a progression.

I saw a post recently where someone had posted what each Faith brought to humanity and how each builds upon the first.

Regards Tony

Hello Tony.

Progression?

I imagine the Báb being invited to speak at my Grandfather’s Chapel (in the 1950’s when I was a child). I imagine him holding his Farsi and Arabic Bayans aloft (in the manner of certain Welsh preachers who loved to wave their Bibles about, much to the amusement of us kids) and declaring that he was the very latest ‘Manifestation’ of the Almighty; and that the Almighty had made it: ‘Unlawful to teach books other than the Bayan unless there be therein something relating to Scholastic Philosophy.’ (Wahid IV, Chapter 10); and that all books must be destroyed: ‘Except such as have been or shall be composed in this religion (the Bab’s religion).’ (Wahid VI, Chapter 6). I don’t need to imagine the reaction of the congregation. There would have been no mad rush to the local schools and Miners’ Institute; no sweeping up of books; and no bonfires.

I imagine the Báb telling his audience that they must bequeath to each of their heirs ‘nineteen sheets of fine paper.’ (Wahid VIII, Chapter 2); and that they must not ‘break eggs before they are cooked.’ (Arabic Bayan: Unit 10: Chap. 15). These words - if delivered on the 1st of April - would taken for an April Fool stunt.

I imagine the Báb telling each of his listeners that even if they, or their children, were to fall ill or suffer injury they: ‘Must not possess, buy, sell, or use medicine.’ (Arabic Bayan: Unit 9: Chap. 8). In other words, disease must be allowed to run its course. I carry, on my upper, arm the mark of a smallpox injection. I recall, with gratitude and admiration, the work of Edward Jenner.

You might care to Google ‘Smallpox - Wikipedia’ and take a good hard look at the photo of a young girl infected with smallpox in Bangaldesh, in 1973. Smallpox is reported to have killed around 300 to 500 million people during the 20th century alone. You will read in the article that: ‘After vaccination campaigns throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the WHO certified the global eradication of smallpox in 1979.’ This eradication would not have happened had the Báb got his way.

But, of course, he didn’t. Bahá'u'lláh came along; and he was a much better marketing manager. He was clever enough to realise that the Baha’i Faith did not have a cat-in-hell’s chance of being accepted by the West - nor by anyone with any sense - so long as these ridiculous ‘laws’ remained. And so he scrapped them.

However, instead of admitting that the Báb had got it wrong; that these ‘laws’ were not from the Almighty after all; Bahá'u'lláh claimed that, indeed, they were; but that He (the Almighty) - over the space of a mere twenty-five years or so - had changed His mind!

It is said that when St Thomas Aquinas was a Dominican novice he was told that a pig was flying outside his dormitory window. Thomas rushed off to see for himself. He was mocked by the other novices, and called a fool. He replied that he would rather be thought a fool than believe that any Dominican would tell a lie! I would rather be considered a dumb - obdurate - Muslim fool than believe that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) could decree such ‘laws’.

Have a great day, and very best regards.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Hello Tony.

Progression?

I imagine the Báb being invited to speak at my Grandfather’s Chapel (in the 1950’s when I was a child). I imagine him holding his Farsi and Arabic Bayans aloft (in the manner of certain Welsh preachers who loved to wave their Bibles about, much to the amusement of us kids) and declaring that he was the very latest ‘Manifestation’ of the Almighty; and that the Almighty had made it: ‘Unlawful to teach books other than the Bayan unless there be therein something relating to Scholastic Philosophy.’ (Wahid IV, Chapter 10); and that all books must be destroyed: ‘Except such as have been or shall be composed in this religion (the Bab’s religion).’ (Wahid VI, Chapter 6). I don’t need to imagine the reaction of the congregation. There would have been no mad rush to the local schools and Miners’ Institute; no sweeping up of books; and no bonfires.

I imagine the Báb telling his audience that they must bequeath to each of their heirs ‘nineteen sheets of fine paper.’ (Wahid VIII, Chapter 2); and that they must not ‘break eggs before they are cooked.’ (Arabic Bayan: Unit 10: Chap. 15). These words - if delivered on the 1st of April - would taken for an April Fool stunt.

I imagine the Báb telling each of his listeners that even if they, or their children, were to fall ill or suffer injury they: ‘Must not possess, buy, sell, or use medicine.’ (Arabic Bayan: Unit 9: Chap. 8). In other words, disease must be allowed to run its course. I carry, on my upper, arm the mark of a smallpox injection. I recall, with gratitude and admiration, the work of Edward Jenner.

You might care to Google ‘Smallpox - Wikipedia’ and take a good hard look at the photo of a young girl infected with smallpox in Bangaldesh, in 1973. Smallpox is reported to have killed around 300 to 500 million people during the 20th century alone. You will read in the article that: ‘After vaccination campaigns throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the WHO certified the global eradication of smallpox in 1979.’ This eradication would not have happened had the Báb got his way.

But, of course, he didn’t. Bahá'u'lláh came along; and he was a much better marketing manager. He was clever enough to realise that the Baha’i Faith did not have a cat-in-hell’s chance of being accepted by the West - nor by anyone with any sense - so long as these ridiculous ‘laws’ remained. And so he scrapped them.

However, instead of admitting that the Báb had got it wrong; that these ‘laws’ were not from the Almighty after all; Bahá'u'lláh claimed that, indeed, they were; but that He (the Almighty) - over the space of a mere twenty-five years or so - had changed His mind!

It is said that when St Thomas Aquinas was a Dominican novice he was told that a pig was flying outside his dormitory window. Thomas rushed off to see for himself. He was mocked by the other novices, and called a fool. He replied that he would rather be thought a fool than believe that any Dominican would tell a lie! I would rather be considered a dumb - obdurate - Muslim fool than believe that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) could decree such ‘laws’.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Hello Niblo, great to hear from you it has been a while. :)

Allah doeth as Allah so Willeth. Who am I to condemn Allah's Messengers and how Allah revealed them to Humanity?

Thus I take the Bab's (Gate) Message in context of the age and I look for its purpose. I see time has proven that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are Mesengers from God, albeit some Muslims are yet to awake to this fact. :)

You are aware the Bayan was revealed to prepare humanity for the 'One whom God would make Manifest', the Day of God foretold in the Bible and all other Holy books, where great earthquakes and calamity would accompany the Message.

The Bab delivered all that with the Bayan, a distinct separation of the age of prophecy that was sealed by Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) and preperation for the 'Glory of God' who would give the new Laws and teachings for this age of fulfillment. Laws that would permeate the mind of all Humanity and not just one people.

The people that waved their books about and spat the dummy in the time of the Bab, were the Muslim Divines. History has recorded those stories that will be read for many hundreds maybe thousands of years to come. The muslim account clothed in deception will fade away as will the names of those that have rejected the Bab.

I revently enjoyed my pilgrimage to the shrine of the Bab on Mt Carmel, the Mount that in the Bible would see the 'Glory of the Lord' and offered prayers for all humanity at that holy threshold, who are those that rejected the Bab? ;)

Peace be upon you and all Niblo. I hope you are well and happy, regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hello Niblo, great to hear from you it has been a while. :)

Allah doeth as Allah so Willeth. Who am I to condemn Allah's Messengers and how Allah revealed them to Humanity?

Thus I take the Bab's (Gate) Message in context of the age and I look for its purpose. I see time has proven that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are Mesengers from God, albeit some Muslims are yet to awake to this fact. :)

You are aware the Bayan was revealed to prepare humanity for the 'One whom God would make Manifest', the Day of God foretold in the Bible and all other Holy books, where great earthquakes and calamity would accompany the Message.

The Bab delivered all that with the Bayan, a distinct separation of the age of prophecy that was sealed by Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) and preperation for the 'Glory of God' who would give the new Laws and teachings for this age of fulfillment. Laws that would permeate the mind of all Humanity and not just one people.

The people that waved their books about and spat the dummy in the time of the Bab, were the Muslim Divines. History has recorded those stories that will be read for many hundreds maybe thousands of years to come. The muslim account clothed in deception will fade away as will the names of those that have rejected the Bab.

I revently enjoyed my pilgrimage to the shrine of the Bab on Mt Carmel, the Mount that in the Bible would see the 'Glory of the Lord' and offered prayers for all humanity at that holy threshold, who are those that rejected the Bab? ;)

Peace be upon you and all Niblo. I hope you are well and happy, regards Tony
Is Niblo correct in what he is saying about the laws given by The Bab?
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Is Niblo correct in what he is saying about the laws given by The Bab?

Yes he is right. I can even provide you with scans of his writings in the original Arabic and Persian. Add these to the above:

“You must destroy everything [non-Bābī?] that you have written and you must argue using the Bayān,” The Bāb, Arabic Bayān, unit 6, chap. 6.

“Chapter six of the sixth unit which is about destroying all books but those that have been written or will be written about this Order (meaning the Bab’s creed),” The Bāb, Farsi bayān, unit 6, chap. 6;

“The fifth chapter of the fifth unit which is about the decree of taking the property of those who do not believe in [the religion] of Bayan and giving it back if they become believers in this religion, except in the lands where taking [property] is not possible,” The Bāb, Farsi Bayan, unit 5, chap. 5;

“The sixteenth chapter of the seventh unit which is about [the decree] that all rulers who rise who are [followers] of the religion of the Bayan, leave no-one in their land who is not a follower of this religion. This is compulsory upon all the people too,” The Bāb, Farsi Bayān, unit 7, chap. 16;

“He who acquires a position of ruling is a manifestation of God’s wrath and if possible for him, must not leave [alive] on earth anyone but the Bābīs!” The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 4, chap. al-Bahā;

“Make everyone accept the [religion of] Bayān and do not accept from them jewels that would amount to the whole earth as payment so that they are excused from becoming Bābīs,” The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 5, chap. al-Lād.
The followers of the Bab wreaked havoc in Iran following these teachings and killed hundreds of people until the government finally crushed them. Baha'is make it look like the poor innocent Babis were simply killed by the Persian government solely because they were Babis without ever translating these Babi laws to English. These laws were so evident that Abdu'l-Baha stated:

“The utterance of the [book or religion] of Bayān in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`lā (meaning the Bāb) was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it,” `Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb (Egypt: 1330 AH), vol. 2, p. 266;
Baha'u'llah went a step further and outright called the Babis unbelievers and faithless while claiming to be the promised one of the same person that made up these laws:

“The unbelievers and the faithless have set their minds on four things: first, the shedding of blood [beheading]; second, the burning of books; third, the shunning of the followers of other religions; fourth, the extermination of other communities and groups. Now however, through the strengthening grace and potency of the Word of God these four barriers have been demolished, these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes.” Bahā’u’llāh, Tablets of Bahā’u’llāh Revealed After the Kitāb-i-Aqdas, p. 91;​
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Is Niblo correct in what he is saying about the laws given by The Bab?

The Laws in the Bayan were subject to the approval and implementation of Baha'u'llah. To which the turmoil of the times were never implemented prior to Baha'u'llah revealing the Most Holy Book. That Most Holy Book then became the laws for this age.

There is no offical translation of the Bayan at this time, there are approved extracts.

You can gain great insight into metaphor by reading prophecy and then the challenge given in the Bayan.

But you can also interpret it by providing a translation that does not consider the purpose of the Message of the Bab.

Much like a Christain giving their ideas as to Quranic verses.

Regards Tony
 
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