Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

[CG Didymus]

I see we are to use science with reason.

There are miracles mentioned in the Bible attributed to Jesus, I see no valid reason they could not be done as Baha'u'llah also did the same. Science in the future may discover how this can be so. We are told not to use them as proof but to gain spiritual insight from them.

There are Stories in the Bible that are obviously metephorical as science has shown them not to to be possible, thus they obvioisly impart spiritual meanings. Many now see them as only miracles and look no deeper.

It is up to you as to how you use science and reason.

Regards Tony

So if a person is stone dead, and another is born blind, and another has pieces of his body falling off from leprosy... did Jesus heal them and make them whole? Or, are they "obviously" some kind of symbolic thing?

 

[CG Didymus]

That is correct. The world wide flood and the creation of the world in six days, six thousand years ago contradicts everything we know in the natural sciences. It makes no sense God would have done this and then hidden His Handiwork.

So then God didn't do those things, yet the Bible says that those things happened. What does that make those Bible stories? You know which word I like to use. And here is the definition of that word:

A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.​

Does that definition fit with the Creation and Flood story?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is merit of the Spiritual aspects of healing. It has its place, It will not heal broken bones.

We are told not to use our spirituality in this immature state of being. We are unaware of what we are doing and we can not determine what is good and what is not.

Regards Tony

Really? God can't... of course he can, so God won't heal broken bones? Tell that to the Christians.

 

[CG Didymus]

I was suggesting as our spiritual and science abilities advance, it may be seen how things we are now are unaware of, but then discover, have the power to heal. Abilities that all the Manifestestion posess, but see humanity are not ready to use. Baha'u'llah has said many things could not be disclosed, as we were not ready. I see our nuclear capabilities were a very good lesson we need for the future.

So God is holding back on the use of spiritual powers to heal people, even though many people in other religions do spiritual healings, but God thought we were ready for nuclear power? In the U.S., we not even ready for guns.

 

[CG Didymus]

Science is still learning about this subject.

There is now some good studies on this subject, how a mindset can also change young minds. I need not offer more than that.

Lets wait and see, that is, if you can not accept what Baha'u'llah offered.

I'm heading home from Melbourne tomorrow, will be flying over Adrian, thus be back in a couple of days

Regards Tony

I thought you were in the Outback somewhere with Crocodile Dundee? How are you going over New Zealand? Or, is that metaphorical?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha’i Writings do not deny that the Prophets had healing powers only that such miracles were only a proof for those who were present and the real miracle is to be able to change hearts even centuries after Their passing.

if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent. – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 99.

Hey Loverofhumanity, haven't heard from you for awhile. But... like I said in another post here, Christians do use the stories to show the power Jesus had. And, ultimately, come to the conclusion that he must be God in the flesh. But the question is... do Baha'is believe things like healing the lepers and the blind were literal or only symbolic? But then, again, if Jesus had the power to heal, and the gospels say he did, why wouldn't it be literal?

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha’u’llah didn’t like talk of miracles because it degraded the Cause of God to a circus. When He was asked by the religious leaders to perform a miracle to prove His validity as a Manifestation He agreed in condition they accept Him once He performed it.

Bahá’u’lláh replied, “Although you have no right to ask this, for God should test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow and accept this request. But the Cause of God is not a theatrical display that is presented every hour, of which some new diversion may be asked for every day. If it were thus, the Cause of God would become mere child’s play.

In the end they couldn’t decide on a miracle and didn’t push the issue further because of fear He would produce it.

The fact He agreed to perform any miracle of their choosing surprised those who challenged Him when He agreed to accept their demand.

The ulamas must, therefore, assemble, and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that, after the performance of this miracle they will no longer entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if not, We shall be convicted of imposture.”

Baha’u’llah, being a Manifestation of God knew He could perform anything they asked so was just up to them to choose and they got scared and backed off.

Well, the gospels are just the opposite. Jesus tells them they can move mountains. He stopped a storm. Oh yes, he brought a couple of people back to life. He tells his followers to ask anything in his name and he will do it.

But maybe the Baha'is are right. Some Christian groups focus on the miracles and it does become a circus. Speaking in tongues, people jumping up and down because their back pain has disappeared, people praying for money and getting a check in the mail... of course the exact amount of their rent.

 

[CG Didymus]

True....
When I read some of Jesus's healings I smile, or grin, or laugh out loud.... not because I don't believe the stories, but because they seem so absolutely obviously truthful to me.

Jesus was one amazingly 'knowing' person, but of course that attitude upsets some Christians......... I must to bed before I get set upon by several religions all at once.


Good Night, All.

When Adrian says, "Jesus bringing Himself to life three days after being put to death is a major step up from merely healing another from sickness." Really? Jesus had no father. Where did the rest of his DNA come from? He turned water into wine, walked on water, stopped a storm, raised others from the dead, but God raising him from the dead? That's impossible? What's wrong with believing all of it or denying all of it? Why do the Baha'is put themselves into some vague symbolic middle ground?

And when you say, "they seem so absolutely obviously truthful to me". That's the thing. If they aren't truthful, then what? The gospel writers and the rest of the NT writers sure built up a good story.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So if a person is stone dead, and another is born blind, and another has pieces of his body falling off from leprosy... did Jesus heal them and make them whole? Or, are the "obviously" some kind of symbolic thing?

We were not there the modern medical diagnosis and further details are not available. Thats plain and simple.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Really? God can't... of course he can, so God won't heal broken bones? Tell that to the Christians.

God has told us to seek expert medical advice and also use prayer. Prayer alone will not heal a bone.

I do not need to tell anybody, this will be obvious.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

So then God didn't do those things, yet the Bible says that those things happened. What does that make those Bible stories? You know which word I like to use. And here is the definition of that word:

A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.​

Does that definition fit with the Creation and Flood story?

Of course

 

[Dawnofhope]

If the power is "beyond" nature, how is science going to prove or disprove it?

We can disprove the story of creation, a worldwide flood and the ascension. We can’t disprove that Jesus healed someone nearly two thousand years ago. That’s the point.

Then it says that manifestations "are superior to all others"? I still don't see how Moses, Abraham, Adam and any other person in the Jewish Bible was superior than any one else. There only strength was when it came to crunch time, most of them turned to their God.

We know little of Manifestations prior to Moses so it’s a moot point.

Finally, what did Jesus conquer? Christians say he conquered death. But Baha'is don't believe that. And, the religion started based on his actions and teachings, makes the miracles of upmost importance... and one of the greatest miracles, if not the greatest, was his resurrection. Something that the Baha'is say never happened. But Trinitarian Christians trust in the power of their three-part God, because he is a miracle worker,and can heal them along with saving them. I've seen healings and I've seen lives changed because those people believed in the power of Jesus to perform miracles, even now. All in their heads? Maybe. What do you think?

Jesus conquered the death of unbelief and raised a vibrant community of faithful followers that spread the gospel through all nations as He commanded.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I thought you were in the Outback somewhere with Crocodile Dundee? How are you going over New Zealand? Or, is that metaphorical?

Adrian is in Brisbane at this time. I am Melbourne going to Cairns very soon.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So God is holding back on the use of spiritual powers to heal people, even though many people in other religions do spiritual healings, but God thought we were ready for nuclear power? In the U.S., we not even ready for guns.

All great questions for you to consider and look for the answers. No need to repost my thoughts on the subject.

Of course there are quotes available, only if you wish for us to give ideas from Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well, the gospels are just the opposite. Jesus tells them they can move mountains. He stopped a storm. Oh yes, he brought a couple of people back to life. He tells his followers to ask anything in his name and he will do it.

But maybe the Baha'is are right. Some Christian groups focus on the miracles and it does become a circus. Speaking in tongues, people jumping up and down because their back pain has disappeared, people praying for money and getting a check in the mail... of course the exact amount of their rent.

Hi CG. The Manifestations are capable of any miracle and they have performed various ones in their life times.

It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendour, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages....(Baha’u’llah)
(Cited in Shoghi Effendi, “The Advent of Divine Justice”, pp. 80–81) [11]

Every single letter proceeding from Our mouth is endowed with such regenerative power as to enable it to bring into existence a new creation—a creation the magnitude of which is inscrutable to all save God. He verily hath knowledge of all things....
(Cited in Shoghi Effendi, “The Advent of Divine Justice”, p. 80) [10]

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hey Loverofhumanity, haven't heard from you for awhile. But... like I said in another post here, Christians do use the stories to show the power Jesus had. And, ultimately, come to the conclusion that he must be God in the flesh. But the question is... do Baha'is believe things like healing the lepers and the blind were literal or only symbolic? But then, again, if Jesus had the power to heal, and the gospels say he did, why wouldn't it be literal?

Hi CG. We believe the Manifestations are capable of both physical and spiritual healing and performed both.

Their power is a power born from God so They can do anything They wish if They choose to do so. Jesus chose to accept crucifixion just as Baha’u’llah chose to accept exile as it was part of God’s Plan and also fulfilled prophecies to show that despite being powerless and penniless the Manifestations triumph in the end.

Has He not, in past days caused Abraham, in spite of His seeming helplessness, to triumph over the forces of Nimrod? Has He not enabled Moses, whose staff was His only companion, to vanquish Pharaoh and his hosts? Has He not established the ascendancy of Jesus, poor and lowly as He was in the eyes of men, over the combined forces of the Jewish people? Has He not subjected the barbarous and militant tribes of Arabia to the holy and transforming discipline of Muammad, His Prophet? (The Bab)

 

[loverofhumanity]

All the wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the Revelation of this Name. In the days to come, ye will, verily, behold things of which ye have never heard before. (Baha’u’llah Gleanings)

It is the appearance of Baha’u’llah that has caused the explosion of knowledge in this day and all the wonderful technologies we have today like the internet and world communication are directly as a consequence of Baha’u’llah appearing. Compare all the past ages together to this age we live in now.

‘See how, in this day, the scope of sciences and arts hath widened out, and what wondrous technical advances have been made, and to what a high degree the mind’s powers have increased, and what stupendous inventions have appeared.

This age is indeed as a hundred other ages: should ye gather the yield of a hundred ages, and set that against the accumulated product of our times, the yield of this one era will prove greater than that of a hundred gone before. ‘(Abdu’l-Baha)

 

[loverofhumanity]

When Moses split the sea, when Jesus cured the leper and blind, their religions did not degrade to circuses or child's play as you claim. On the contrary these were percieved as clear signs that they were truthful in their claims. This is how I see it, since Baha'u'llah couldn't perform miracles he resorted to two things:

1- Deny the miracles of other Prophets and label them as symbolic, so no one would expect him to perform miracles.
2- Make up and spread a story about challenging the religious leaders to a miracle, and then claim they chickened out.

Baha’u’llah emphasised the power of the Prophets to perform miracles both physical and spiritual and He Himself performed many both physical and spiritual miracles.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When Moses split the sea, when Jesus cured the leper and blind, their religions did not degrade to circuses or child's play as you claim. On the contrary these were percieved as clear signs that they were truthful in their claims. This is how I see it, since Baha'u'llah couldn't perform miracles he resorted to two things:

1- Deny the miracles of other Prophets and label them as symbolic, so no one would expect him to perform miracles.
2- Make up and spread a story about challenging the religious leaders to a miracle, and then claim they chickened out.

The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared. (Abdu’l-Baha)

 

[CG Didymus]

God has told us to seek expert medical advice and also use prayer. Prayer alone will not heal a bone.

I do not need to tell anybody, this will be obvious.

Regards Tony

Then those Christians that claim God healed their broken bones are liars or what? Nuts? Scam artists?

"X-Rays show the bone healed perfectly. The Steel rod and six screws disappeared
Everyone is amazed at God's miracle in healing the broken bone in my right leg!"​