Hi @Niblo
Thank you again for your post and acknowledging it is the Muslims, not the Baha'is who regard the Gospels and Torah as corrupted. You raised interesting points about scholarly concerns and discussions about both the Torah and Gospels. However none of the points raised would lead us to question the authenticity of the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ. Do bear in mind that we are not taking about a miracle here like the resurrection narrative which you seem to accept despite the acount inextricably interwoven the crucifixion. Historians, including atheists unanimously agree Jesus was crucified, other than those who believe Jesus never existed in the first place. No Muslim has ever produced any convincing evidence that Jesus wasn't crucified to Christians or a Baha'is. The sole basis of their belief are two verses from the Holy Quran that read:
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;
Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158
Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia
No Baha'i rejects these verses but would interpret them metaphorically. Essentially Muhammad is saying they did not kill Jesus's Spirit and in crucifying Him He was Glorified and raised to heaven.
Christians and Baha'is, unlike many Muslims are free to openly question and discuss issues such as these without fear of ostracism from their communities.
You have written to another above:
"The Qur’an makes it clear that Yeshua a) was not crucified; and b) did not die. Adrian rejects both of these, in favour of the Gospels. This tells me that there is one Baha'i who rejects at least part of the Qur’an!"
I wish to make it known that these verses from the Quran do not make it clear at all Jesus was 'not crucified' and I do not reject that part of the Quran, or any part of the Quran.
The evidence in favour of the crucifixion of Christ from the accounts in the New Testament and from historians is overwhelming.
The earliest detailed accounts of the death of Jesus are contained in the four canonical gospels. There are other, more implicit references in the New Testament epistles. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus predicts his death in three separate places. All four Gospels conclude with an extended narrative of Jesus' arrest, initial trial at the Sandhedrin and final trial at Pilate's court, where Jesus is flogged, condemned to death, is led to the place of crucifixion initially carrying his cross before Roman soldiers induce Simon of Cyrene to carry it, and then Jesus is crucified, entombed, and resurrected from the dead. His death is described as a sacrifice in the Gospels and other books of the New Testament.[22] In each Gospel these five events in the life of Jesus are treated with more intense detail than any other portion of that Gospel's narrative. Scholars note that the reader receives an almost hour-by-hour account of what is happening.
Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia
The baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.[9][10] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[9] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[11] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[12] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[13] Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[4] Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[14]
Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia
So it is indubitably clear that Muslims reject large portions of the Gospels despite its mention and exaltation within at least 12 passages in the Holy Quran. In doing so the contradiction is created that God having revealed the Gospel or Truth then deprived the Christians of that same Gospel for nearly 600 years until Muhammad's revelation. What Just and Loving Creator would conceive of such a thing! To the contrary the Gospel is Divinely inspired and was under God's protection. It is Muslims who have erred from the clear text of both the Quran and Gospels.
Thank you again for your post and acknowledging it is the Muslims, not the Baha'is who regard the Gospels and Torah as corrupted. You raised interesting points about scholarly concerns and discussions about both the Torah and Gospels. However none of the points raised would lead us to question the authenticity of the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ. Do bear in mind that we are not taking about a miracle here like the resurrection narrative which you seem to accept despite the acount inextricably interwoven the crucifixion. Historians, including atheists unanimously agree Jesus was crucified, other than those who believe Jesus never existed in the first place. No Muslim has ever produced any convincing evidence that Jesus wasn't crucified to Christians or a Baha'is. The sole basis of their belief are two verses from the Holy Quran that read:
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;
Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158
Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia
No Baha'i rejects these verses but would interpret them metaphorically. Essentially Muhammad is saying they did not kill Jesus's Spirit and in crucifying Him He was Glorified and raised to heaven.
Christians and Baha'is, unlike many Muslims are free to openly question and discuss issues such as these without fear of ostracism from their communities.
You have written to another above:
"The Qur’an makes it clear that Yeshua a) was not crucified; and b) did not die. Adrian rejects both of these, in favour of the Gospels. This tells me that there is one Baha'i who rejects at least part of the Qur’an!"
I wish to make it known that these verses from the Quran do not make it clear at all Jesus was 'not crucified' and I do not reject that part of the Quran, or any part of the Quran.
The evidence in favour of the crucifixion of Christ from the accounts in the New Testament and from historians is overwhelming.
The earliest detailed accounts of the death of Jesus are contained in the four canonical gospels. There are other, more implicit references in the New Testament epistles. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus predicts his death in three separate places. All four Gospels conclude with an extended narrative of Jesus' arrest, initial trial at the Sandhedrin and final trial at Pilate's court, where Jesus is flogged, condemned to death, is led to the place of crucifixion initially carrying his cross before Roman soldiers induce Simon of Cyrene to carry it, and then Jesus is crucified, entombed, and resurrected from the dead. His death is described as a sacrifice in the Gospels and other books of the New Testament.[22] In each Gospel these five events in the life of Jesus are treated with more intense detail than any other portion of that Gospel's narrative. Scholars note that the reader receives an almost hour-by-hour account of what is happening.
Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia
The baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.[9][10] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[9] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[11] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[12] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[13] Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[4] Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[14]
Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia
So it is indubitably clear that Muslims reject large portions of the Gospels despite its mention and exaltation within at least 12 passages in the Holy Quran. In doing so the contradiction is created that God having revealed the Gospel or Truth then deprived the Christians of that same Gospel for nearly 600 years until Muhammad's revelation. What Just and Loving Creator would conceive of such a thing! To the contrary the Gospel is Divinely inspired and was under God's protection. It is Muslims who have erred from the clear text of both the Quran and Gospels.
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