Do Baha'is honestly believe a person can not be gay?

[Rainbow Mage]

This has always been one of my biggest hang ups with the Baha'i faith, as much as I admire it's openness and emphasis on unity, it seems to take a less then tasteful view of homosexuality.

The Baha'i faith seems to teach that a gay person can be a Baha'i, but that they can't act on their homosexual urges. To me this kind of approach is so unfair to gay people it isn't funny. How could a gay person not act on our urges? That's like asking a heterosexual not to act on theirs.

Secondly, for those who are gay and Baha'i, and do act on their sexuality I've seen cases where they are harassed by other Baha'is to repent of their sin, and sometimes the spiritual assembly even excommunicates them.

For a faith claiming to be tolerant, why do Baha'is take this approach on gays?

 

[BruceDLimber]

[F]or those who are gay and Baha'i, and do act on their sexuality I've seen cases where they are harassed by other Baha'is to repent of their sin, and sometimes the spiritual assembly even excommunicates them.

Sigh.

Wrong again!

No one is expelled from the Faith for being homosexual (nor is the term "excommunication" relevant because there is no such thing as communion/eucharist in the Baha'i Faith)!

Someone who repeatedly violates Baha'i law about this may be deprived of administrative rights (just as can happen, for example, for continued public intoxication), but that person remains a Baha'i nonetheless.

Just the facts.

And to answer your original question, it's definitely possible for a person not to be gay! I'm not, for example.

Bruce

 

[Alceste]

You kind of missed the point, Bruce. Does the Bahai faith discriminate against homosexuals in any way? That would include not only expulsion, but ostracising them, "removing privileges" or setting impossible double standards (i.e. straight members can have romantic relationships and gay members can't)?

I'm also curious. I don't know much about the Bahai faith.

 

[Gaura Priya]

You kind of missed the point, Bruce. Does the Bahai faith discriminate against homosexuals in any way? That would include not only expulsion, but ostracising them, "removing privileges" or setting impossible double standards (i.e. straight members can have romantic relationships and gay members can't)?

I'm also curious. I don't know much about the Bahai faith.

This article is a good poke and introduction of the Baha'i Faith in a nutshell: Unitarian Bahai.org > What Is This Thing Called the Bahai Faith? It is not biased like the Wikipedia is, and comes from a Unitarian Universalist perspective.

In the organised Baha'i Faith, which believe in an all-authoritarian governing body called the 'Universal House of Justice,' homosexuality is considered an aberration and can be cured by prayer and by medicine. If a Baha'i is 'flagrantly homosexual,' whatever that means, they are taken away of their voting rights, which is a MAJOR part of the Baha'i governing process, since they believe that the voting process is somewhat divinely given by God.

You feel ostracised from your community and seen as 'struggling.' Although you can come to the Feasts (Baha'i worship service), you still are barred from the business portion where everyone (else) is equally the right to be part of the administrative process.

From gaybahai.net you can read the countless stories of LGBT Baha'is and their dealings with the community.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Sigh.

Wrong again!

No one is expelled from the Faith for being homosexual (nor is the term "excommunication" relevant because there is no such thing as communion/eucharist in the Baha'i Faith)!

Someone who repeatedly violates Baha'i law about this may be deprived of administrative rights (just as can happen, for example, for continued public intoxication), but that person remains a Baha'i nonetheless.

Just the facts.

And to answer your original question, it's definitely possible for a person not to be gay! I'm not, for example.

Bruce

The problem is, that the removal of administrative rights DIRECTLY is a form of discrimination, especially making it the same as alcoholism, it is something that can be 'gotten rid of.'

If a Baha'i is removed from eir voting rights, ey can never receive a position on the Universal House of Justice, the National Spiritual Assembly, the Local Spiritual Assembly, or vote every year. Ey is barred from having any FULL experience of being part of the organised, Haifan Baha'i community.

So if a lesbian or gay couple *with* children desire to become part of the Baha'i community, they are asked to separate before they can join... and talk about breaking families apart! And yet although monogamy is 'ordained of God' relationships with polygynous men are allowed to keep their wives when they enter the Faith!

I really hope that the Baha'is work at this discrimination, because they aren't doing very well. Progression should also mean social progression, and not aspirational ideals from a by-gone Victorian era.

 

[doppelganger]

Baha'i is far from free of discrimination. And despite its adherents' claims to the contrary, Baha'i institutions are not open to alternative perspectives, certainly not anything remotely close to the way UU is.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Baha'i is far from free of discrimination. And despite its adherents' claims to the contrary, Baha'i institutions are not open to alternative perspectives, certainly not anything remotely close to the way UU is.

That's why I have chosen to be part of the Unitarian Universalist movement... I keep my Baha'i beliefs, but I universalise and adapt them to a UU perspective. I love my Unitarian community!

Triumphalism, authoritarianism and non-progressive Abrahamic religion is definitely not needed in this Age, and Baha'u'llah's teachings of the Unity of Humankind can only be reached when respect for differing theological stances is given, not some conglomerate theology copy and pasted, and safeguarded against opposing viewpoints for fear of 'destroying the Cause of God'.

Unity in diversity, not unity in conformity.

 

[Alceste]

Thanks, madanbhakta. That's very informative. I'll have to reorder my opinions a little. I thought Baha'i was a fairly liberal / inclusive belief system. I see that it is not.

 

[EverChanging]

Thanks, madanbhakta. That's very informative. I'll have to reorder my opinions a little. I thought Baha'i was a fairly liberal / inclusive belief system. I see that it is not.

I have been disappointed as I have learned more about Baha'i as well. It seems highly authoritarian and homophobic, definitely not what I think of as progressive.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Thanks, madanbhakta. That's very informative. I'll have to reorder my opinions a little. I thought Baha'i was a fairly liberal / inclusive belief system. I see that it is not.

It's as inclusive as Islam is in universal monotheism. Otherwise, it is still an Abrahamic religion with a claim of Prophethood, laws, spiritual practices, etc. It was never a 'liberal' or 'inclusive' belief system from the onstart...

That's just preaching propaganda.

However, Baha'u'llah's vision was that of the Cause of Unity of Mankind. To tolerate one another, to have peoples under the branch of love and fellowship, and to be a nucleus of peace, have been part of Baha'u'llah's teachings.

However, just as Christians are not Christianity, or the Wahhabi Muslims do not represent Islam in itself, the Haifan, organised, fundamentalist Baha'is are NOT the Baha'i Faith. However, they unfortunately make up the majority.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I have been disappointed as I have learned more about Baha'i as well. It seems highly authoritarian and homophobic, definitely not what I think of as progressive.

Have you read Baha'u'llah's Writings at least? I find that people who also claim about the Baha'i Faith, often just see it as the 'authoritarian administrative religion' rather than a movement of people, a spiritual belief. Baha'u'llah's teachings, especially for the Age he was in, was very liberal, even if under an Abrahamic context.

Given that the Baha'i Faith (noun: the Baha'i Faith, adjective: Baha'i, follower: Baha'i) is an Abrahamic religion, not unlike Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, I often desire to seek it in a Unitarian Universalist perspective, such as shown on the links below in my signature (Unitarian Baha'i Association).


"O CHILDREN OF MEN!

Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory."

-- Hidden Words I:68

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well I came across a letter from the UHJ on homosexuality, and the more I read it the sicker I got:

UHJ letter: homosexuality.discussion.html

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

We shrink for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which if forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires. (Kitab-i-Aqdas, paragraph 107)

Odd. This sounds like male pedophilia, not homosexuality. Unless Baha'u'llah committed the fallacy of assuming they're the same thing.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

It is about pedophilia Gabriel. There's no indication it's other then that, except where Shoghi Effendi is concerned.

 

[Wombat]

Sigh.

Wrong again!

No one is expelled from the Faith for being homosexual (nor is the term "excommunication" relevant because there is no such thing as communion/eucharist in the Baha'i Faith)!

Someone who repeatedly violates Baha'i law about this may be deprived of administrative rights (just as can happen, for example, for continued public intoxication), but that person remains a Baha'i nonetheless.

Just the facts.

And to answer your original question, it's definitely possible for a person not to be gay! I'm not, for example.

Bruce

Yea...right Bruce...no Gay Baha’i is “expelled” they are just pathologized, treated as ill, have their “voting rights taken away” and are driven into the closet or out of the Faith.
Here is a directive from the “infallible” Guardian of the Baha’i Faith regarding a gay Baha’i-
““This person should have it brought to his attention that such acts are condemned by Bahá'u'lláh, and that he must mend his ways, if necessary consult doctors and make efforts to overcome this affliction, which is corruptive for him and bad for the Cause. If after a period of probation you do not see an improvement, he should have his voting rights taken away." Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, letter dated 6/20/53 to NSA of Canada.”


Someone who repeatedly violates Baha'i law about this may be deprived of administrative rights

Ah huh...And would you care to explain the Baha'i Fair Due Process proceedings by which it is determined if a Baha'i is in an active homosexual relationship or not?

How, >exactly<, is it determined that a Baha'i is actively Gay and in "violation" of this "Baha'i law" prior to being "deprived of administrative rights".

You see...I have been in the Baha'i community for twenty years and engaged in online discussion with Baha'is for a decade+....and I am yet to meet a single Baha'i who is prepared to answer these basic and fundamental justice questions.

Just the facts.

The "facts" are that the Baha'i community/AO-
1/ Has no mechanisim to determine >GENDER< let alone active homosexual activity.
2/As a consequence of 1/ Has >no just/reasonable way< to determine if "Baha'i law" has been "violated". Thus rendering the 'law' useless.
3/ Has a longstanding disinterest in, contempt for and rejection of any form of Fair Due Process Hearing if/when a community member is accused of being actively Gay (or any other offence")

" My accusers never confronted me;
I came to find out later that the National Spiritual Assembly and other
Administrative bodies had used members of the Local Spiritual Assembly
and the community as "informants". The concept of due process is
foreign in the Baha'i Faith."
My experience as a member of the Baha'i Faith
By Dennis James Rogers

My experience as a member of the Baha'i Faith Dennis James Rogers 9/6/2001


And to answer your original question, it's definitely possible for a person not to be gay! I'm not, for example.

Bruce....How could you >prove that< if accused otherwise in a community that rejects fair hearing/Due Process?

 

[Wombat]

This has always been one of my biggest hang ups with the Baha'i faith, as much as I admire it's openness and emphasis on unity, it seems to take a less then tasteful view of homosexuality.

The Baha'i faith seems to teach that a gay person can be a Baha'i, but that they can't act on their homosexual urges. To me this kind of approach is so unfair to gay people it isn't funny. How could a gay person not act on our urges? That's like asking a heterosexual not to act on theirs.

Secondly, for those who are gay and Baha'i, and do act on their sexuality I've seen cases where they are harassed by other Baha'is to repent of their sin, and sometimes the spiritual assembly even excommunicates them.

For a faith claiming to be tolerant, why do Baha'is take this approach on gays?

Gay and Lesbian Baha’i Story Project
http://www.gaybahai.net/
Read them and weep.
For a good/comprehensive insight into how Baha’is view Gays check out ‘Baha’is Displaying Prejudice’-
http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/43851/26596589/Bahais_displaying_prejudice
Read it all and laugh at the brilliant display of prejudice, the rank evasion and obfuscation and the hysterical unbiased censorship conducted by the Baha’i Moderator.
"LGBTI Let us live in Peace." Text of a mask worn during a protest in Kampala, Uganda, seeking and end to persecution of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transexuals, transgendered and intersex persons. Local Baha'i, Christian and Muslim leaders urged the government to arrest the protestors."
The Baha'i faith and homosexuality
"why do Baha'is take this approach on gays"
I don't know. But as a former member of the Baha'i community (20years) one of the greatest regrets of my life is that I did not stand up sooner, louder and longer.
For that I apologise to all members of the Gay and Lesbian community.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The point is that we adhere to our scriptures and the official interpretations of them; and like it or not, these clearly PROHIBIT homosexual acts. We are not about to go against our scriptures merely to placate some current popular position.

And as I indicated, anyone who chooses to remain chaste is most welcome to continue as a Baha'i regardless of whether he/she is homosexual or heterosexual.

We are indeed fairly "liberal" on a bunch of topics, but not where this would overturn our scriptures. Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[doppelganger]

Right. I just wish Baha'i would quit misrepresenting their religion as being inclusive of differing perspectives or in any way relativistic, or open to personal interpretation. It's dishonest.

The religion is exclusivist and intolerant of dissent. Just be honest and own it Baha'i friends.

 

[doppelganger]

I find many of Baha'ullah's early writings to be quite beautiful expressions of mysticism and timeless wisdom. The lesson to be learned from his reaction to a "religion" growing around him is this: when you start attracting "followers" who really don't get what you are saying but want something to believe in, don't, out of your frustration, start offering them a shabby substitute for their own journey of enlightenment.

 

[TheKnight]

This has always been one of my biggest hang ups with the Baha'i faith, as much as I admire it's openness and emphasis on unity, it seems to take a less then tasteful view of homosexuality.

The Baha'i faith seems to teach that a gay person can be a Baha'i, but that they can't act on their homosexual urges. To me this kind of approach is so unfair to gay people it isn't funny. How could a gay person not act on our urges? That's like asking a heterosexual not to act on theirs.

Secondly, for those who are gay and Baha'i, and do act on their sexuality I've seen cases where they are harassed by other Baha'is to repent of their sin, and sometimes the spiritual assembly even excommunicates them.

For a faith claiming to be tolerant, why do Baha'is take this approach on gays?

How is it intolerant to have a standard and then enforce it?

It isn't unfair to ask people not to act on their urges when those urges run contrary to the goal or standard set. Hell, is it unfair for government agencies to tell their operatives who work in top-secret settings not to go talk about it? Even though they may have the urge to do so?

If someone wishes to be a part of a group or adhere to a certain lifestyle that has certain defined practices and restraints that define it, then you cannot say it is unfair to limit the person in anyway that it limits anyone. It presume that there is a universal definition of how things should be and what is fair and that all things in the world must ascribe to such a definition.

This article is a good poke and introduction of the Baha'i Faith in a nutshell: Unitarian Bahai.org > What Is This Thing Called the Bahai Faith? It is not biased like the Wikipedia is, and comes from a Unitarian Universalist perspective.

How is it not biased when it comes from a particular perspective?