Do Baha'is honestly believe a person can not be gay?

[BruceDLimber]

You are making it clear that you are ALREADY prejudging Wombat that he does not know how 'you operate' and 'what you do and don't have happening.'

I am prejudging nothing whatever because his own postings made this clear.

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[P]rovided that this search for relative truth happens to lead them to the One Truth as officially approved for the Baha'i Faith, they are welcome to participate as full members. Otherwise

Simply false!

If truth were relative...

A given, little as you appreciate the fact!:

"Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth."
Gleanings, LXXXI, p. 187


Bruce

 

[Gaura Priya]

I am prejudging nothing whatever because his own postings made this clear.

Bruce

Yes you were... you claimed that Wombat knew *nothing* about the Baha'i Administrative Order, when clearly he has had experience with the fundamentalist Baha'i community.

That is called a prejudgement.

 

[TheKnight]

That depends on your moral/ethical conditioning and stance...there are some who believe that (wether they like it or not) they are obliged to embrace and hold to 'truth' and respond to appropriate 'authority'. If, being raised in the Baha'i faith or comming into it on the basis that it is 'true' and has 'authority' it is not " an optional thing". It is a "requirement" and a responsibility.

If they then discover that the Baha'i community is not true to the principles of the Baha'i Faith....then they have another requirement and responsibility.

I suppose that could be true. But they would have a hard time justifying such a position I would imagine.

No...I'm sorry...>God< sets the "standards and goals" "t

That isn't an argument. Plenty of religions make claims about God and his rules. There is no objective God-set standard. So if you want to know what consists of being a Bahai, you ask a Bahai. You don't say "God told me X, which disagrees with Bahai teachings" and then call yourself a Bahai.

Depends on what the "it" is that "someone doesn't like" if 'it' is a blatant injustice or disreguard for justice or a clear abrogation of Baha'i principles then why should they abandon their "faith" rather than seek to correct the injustice within the community?

The OP didn't seem to be pointing out inconsistency in the Bahai teachings, but rather personal disagreement with Bahai doctrine.

Besides, if you come to a religion and say "God told me X" The religion has no obligation to listen because if they listened to every claim of what God told someone they'd believe in every religion.

Ah huh...And if you are fifteen years old, old enough to Declare your Baha'i faith, come from a three generation Baha'i family, your social circle is Baha'i, your friends are 'The Friends'- all declared Baha'i.........do you think at fifteen you >know< if you are Gay or not?

I never didn't know my sexual orientation. So yes. When you get to a point when sex become an interest (and probably well before) you are pretty certain what your orientation is. Those who are "unsure" are nothing more than cowards not willing to admit to themselves what they actually are.

The only unsure people I've met were gay people who, because of wrongful external pressure, did not want to admit their homosexuality.

What I'm saying is that many young Baha'is find themselves deeply imeshed and comitted in and to both the Baha'i Faith and the Baha'i community- subsequently find they are Gay- are required (if they out themselves or are exposed) to undergo- "consult doctors and make efforts to overcome this affliction, which is corruptive for him and bad for the Cause. If after a period of probation you do not see an improvement, he should have his voting rights taken away"....and as you say and most Gays know- they "cannot change that they are gay."

Does that mean a gay person shouldn't try? You can't change being ugly but people get plastic surgery all the time.

Getting therapy for your sex-life/orientation is pretty normal. Straight people do it all the time.

If a gay person is truly committed, then they'll give it a shot. And if they find they can't change, then they'll accept that their voting rights are taken. If they disagree that their rights are taken then they aren't very committed to the faith are they?

I have watched young Gay Baha'is struggle with this horrid- man made/Baha'i Administrative predicament...I have watched grown men, members of the Baha'i National Spiritual Assembly live fearful of being 'outed'....it is not pleasant, it is not just....it is not necessary.

I will that this is a problem. I saw similar problems in the Christian/Jewish community. Coming out is a fearful thing because religious communities are not as accepting as they should be.

Or you seek to ensure that the "standards of behavior for its members" are fair, just, practical, compassionate, principled and workable.

Wrong. You would first have to argue that there is an objective standard by which you can measure just. If you tell me the Torah is unjust then you have automatically lost the argument with me because my standard of justice is the Torah itself.

And, once more I ask of anyone who can answer, if the organizations standards of behavior for membership can come down to- not just sexuality but >active< sexuality >how on earth< is any religious organization going to determine what is or is not taking place behind closed doors?

They can only know if the person talks about it. Saying you are gay isn't an admission of behavior. However, in some circles precautions are taken and rightfully so. If you tell me you like to eat lobster, and I have a lobster farm, I'm not going to put you in charge of my lobster.

That is completely true. However, adherents to the Baha'i faith should not misrepresent that membership in the Baha'i community is open to persons who do not agree to adhere to dogmas and beliefs dictated from the political leadership of the faith.

Open to is far different than accepting of every behavior. I view homosexual sex acts as sins. It doesn't mean that I am not accepting of who they are (considering my work as a counselor). I accept it, I live with it when they tell me, and it doesn't affect my ability to be fair and unbiased. It's not my job to be their moral judge. It's not anyone's job really. So the fact that I disagree with their behavior has nothing to do with how I interact with them unless said behavior requires a reaction on my part because of religious mandate, or said behavior is the cause of whatever psychological problem they have come to me for.

It's certainly their prerogative to be intolerant and disrespectful of homosexuals. No doubt they aren't far removed from most of the world's major religious institutions on that issue either.

But I would really like to see people of the Baha'i faith stop habitually presenting it like it were UU or something, where people of differing faiths and values come together in community and understanding. Baha'i is, in fact, anything but that.

I cannot speak on this as I am unfamiliar with the Bahai Faith.

However, the fact that they disagree with and respond to certain behaviors from their members doesn't mean they aren't accepting. It means that they react to certain behaviors. If I arrest you because you murdered someone, it doesn't mean I don't like you. It means my job in law enforcement necessitates that I arrest you for murder. Whether or not I like you depends on whatever my personal criteria for liking someone happen to be.

 

[doppelganger]

Simply false!

Great! So that means that members of Baha'i can be practicing homosexuals and still enjoy full community and voting rights then. Problem solved! Thanks Bruce.

It's official everyone. According to Bruce, the Baha'i faith now accepts homosexuals, does not condemn homosexual activity if the individual believer decides it should not be condemned, and everyone retains full community and voting rights.

That's also true of Baha'i agnostics and atheists should their search for relative truth lead them to that conclusion. If I sign up as a Baha'i agnostic, when will I get to have my voice heard in the UHJ, Bruce?

That was easier than I thought.

You're a champ, Bruce.

 

[doppelganger]

Open to is far different than accepting of every behavior.

You missed my point entirely. I know they aren't accepting of every behavior. That's why when they say to potential new recruits or in forums like this that they are relativistic on moral questions, they aren't being honest.

I don't insist that they accept every point of view. I simply ask that they not be dishonest about it.

 

[Gaura Priya]

That isn't an argument. Plenty of religions make claims about God and his rules. There is no objective God-set standard. So if you want to know what consists of being a Bahai, you ask a Bahai. You don't say "God told me X, which disagrees with Bahai teachings" and then call yourself a Bahai.

Wombat and I are Baha'is, and we both profess to be Baha'is. And we both are fed up with the fundamentalist notions of our own Faith.

So just as there are different temperaments and beliefs within Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, there will also be different temperaments with those of the Baha'i Faith.

I will that this is a problem. I saw similar problems in the Christian/Jewish community. Coming out is a fearful thing because religious communities are not as accepting as they should be.

Especially when you perceive their actions as inherently sinful.

Wrong. You would first have to argue that there is an objective standard by which you can measure just. If you tell me the Torah is unjust then you have automatically lost the argument with me because my standard of justice is the Torah itself.

There is absolutely NOTHING in the Baha'i Scriptures (all of Baha'u'llah's Writings) that is against homosexuality. Shoghi Effendi is used because he made an interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Writing to condemn it, when the very phrase only speaks of paedophilia and paederasty.

But neither Shoghi Effendi, nor 'Abdu'l-Baha, is Scripture. Only Baha'u'llah's Word is Scripture.

 

[TheKnight]

You missed my point entirely. I know they aren't accepting of every behavior. That's why when they say to potential new recruits or in forums like this that they are relativistic on moral questions, they aren't being honest.

It depends on what you mean when you say relativistic. I am a moral relativist because what I will say is the moral action depends on the situation.

I don't insist that they accept every point of view. I simply ask that they not be dishonest about it.

Fair enough.

Wombat and I are Baha'is, and we both profess to be Baha'is. And we both are fed up with the fundamentalist notions of our own Faith.

So just as there are different temperaments and beliefs within Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, there will also be different temperaments with those of the Baha'i Faith.

Is this feeling of fed-upness based on a legitimate concern about the faith? For instance, in Christianity it's not like the various denominations just don't like a certain thing. It's that they legitimately disagree with how the doctrine is interpreted.

Within Judaism, it's not like Reform says "we have the true way and Orthodox is false" it's that the different sects of Judaism disagree about the current required level of observance.

Especially when you perceive their actions as inherently sinful.

Wrong. It is possible to be accepting of the person while condemning their actions. I do not drink alcohol. I know many alcoholics and despise alcoholism. Yet I have friends who are alcoholics. My treatment of them is not any different because of how I view their actions.

I could list a long list of actions that people close to me do, yet those actions don't necessarily affect our relationship.

It's a matter of relationship maturity. You have to evaluate how much you evaluate the relationship with the person despite their actions. For many fundamentalists this task is difficult because their thought process is diluted with flawed emotional logic.

There is absolutely NOTHING in the Baha'i Scriptures (all of Baha'u'llah's Writings) that is against homosexuality. Shoghi Effendi is used because he made an interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Writing to condemn it, when the very phrase only speaks of paedophilia and paederasty.

But neither Shoghi Effendi, nor 'Abdu'l-Baha, is Scripture. Only Baha'u'llah's Word is Scripture.

I would not know as I'm not Bahai.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Is this feeling of fed-upness based on a legitimate concern about the faith? For instance, in Christianity it's not like the various denominations just don't like a certain thing. It's that they legitimately disagree with how the doctrine is interpreted.

Within Judaism, it's not like Reform says "we have the true way and Orthodox is false" it's that the different sects of Judaism disagree about the current required level of observance.

There are some of us who uphold a more liberal idea of the Baha'i Faith, not unlike liberal Christians who are sick of upholding more fundamentalist doctrine, or liberal Muslims. The idea of female imams, priestesses and imams abound in such liberal doctrine. This is where I and Wombat also stand.

I do not agree that the governing body for Baha'is is legitimate; the idea of a Universal House of Justice and being obedient to its rulings, to me, is not present in Baha'u'llah's Writings. I only follow Baha'u'llah.

Wrong. It is possible to be accepting of the person while condemning their actions. I do not drink alcohol. I know many alcoholics and despise alcoholism. Yet I have friends who are alcoholics. My treatment of them is not any different because of how I view their actions.

I could list a long list of actions that people close to me do, yet those actions don't necessarily affect our relationship.

It's a matter of relationship maturity. You have to evaluate how much you evaluate the relationship with the person despite their actions. For many fundamentalists this task is difficult because their thought process is diluted with flawed emotional logic.

I agree that it is possible to love a person and not love their actions. Unfortunately, translated realistically it can be very difficult to practically love someone without having such preconceived notions or prejudices against that person. I may love another person, yet dislike the fact that they may live off gambling despite being my friend. But that dislike already makes me unfortunate, because I have distinguished that action as part of this person and noted it as a negative thing.

However, people do not claim to be born alcoholic and commit suicide because of identifying with alcoholism as an indelible part of one`s identity. People unfortunately commit suicide because of identifying as homosexual or transsexual and are unable to live in such religious communities.

Knowing that a person in a temple close by you committed suicide because of unacceptance of homosexuality is unsettling. If my beliefs are harmful to the worth and dignity of a person, then it would be better to get rid of my belief instead. And this concept is a very Baha'i concept, because Baha'u'llah desired spiritual happiness for all people, and not their degradation as pure kindred souls endeavouring to love God.

I would not know as I'm not Bahai.

And identifying as a gay Baha'i is who I am. So as both gay, and a Baha'i, two foreign concepts of which you do not know of, it is painful to be taught that one is an aberration from God and that through medicine and prayer, one will be cured of it, and if not, then one must be celibate for life, while straight married couples can have recreational sex whenever they desire, save for the Fasting month.

 

[Wombat]

Great! So that means that members of Baha'i can be practicing homosexuals and still enjoy full community and voting rights then. Problem solved! Thanks Bruce.

It's official everyone. According to Bruce, the Baha'i faith now accepts homosexuals, does not condemn homosexual activity if the individual believer decides it should not be condemned, and everyone retains full community and voting rights.
.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>OH HAPPY DAY<<<<<<<<<<<!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


[youtube]SLY7yI1xV-M[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLY7yI1xV-M&feature=related

:goldfish::goldfish::goldfish::goldfish::goldfish::goldfish::goldfish::goldfish:

 

[Wombat]

I am prejudging nothing whatever because his own postings made this clear.

Bruce

This exchange began with-

#32 “And your question makes clear that you obviously don't understand how we operate and what we do and don't have happening...”Bruce

Ok Bruce....I “obviously don’t understand”...strangely enough, that’s what I thought asking pertinent “questions” was all about...seeking understanding.

So...once more...please enlighten me so that I (and others) might “understand how you operate and what you do and don't have happening”-

What I don't understand is-

The LSA/Community must have some mechanism to “determine if he/a Baha’i couple have become/remained chaste or not”...otherwise how can they remove his/their voting rights?

How can I/we "understand" if you cannot or will not explain “how you operate and what you do and don't have happening...”?

 

[Gaura Priya]

[youtube]jVRJFChcL3I[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVRJFChcL3I

"O God! Guide me, protect me. Make of me a shining lamp and a brilliant star. Thou art the Mighty and Powerful."

-- 'Abdu'l-Baha

 

[Wombat]

[youtube]jVRJFChcL3I[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVRJFChcL3I

"O God! Guide me, protect me. Make of me a shining lamp and a brilliant star. Thou art the Mighty and Powerful."

-- 'Abdu'l-Baha

Oh Mate!...Nice one.
First piece of Baha’i art that has really moved me since I first saw the temples.
Crying unashamedly.
Thank you.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Oh Mate!...Nice one.
First piece of Baha’i art that has really moved me since I first saw the temples.
Crying unashamedly.
Thank you.

No problem, mate! The song inspires me to know that God is taking care of me, despite what other people think... I love Baha'u'llah, I am gay, and I am not afraid to say it here!


"Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great."

-- Tablet of Ahmad