Do "Believers" really believe?

[lilithu]

My energies aren't being wasted here. Can you deny the possibility that there's someone reading this discussion right now who's questioning his/her own faith. Maybe there's somthing we're discussing that convinces them one way or the other.

Highly unlikely. The thing that gets me is you assuming that your questions are original.

Most of the people here are rather open minded folk who are interested in sharing views and opinions with each other. Very few of the people here are here to convert others to their beliefs. And those few who are here to convert others to their beliefs very often run into trouble with the mods. Rule #19 is enforced.

Outright proselytizing is verbotten, but surely in a debate; a major motivation for many is to logically show that your view is correct?

 

[LogDog]

Good. Go back and reread post 5, then, since my experience alone is enough to disprove your idea about why people are religious.

I'm just dying for you to explain why an atheist would've come under a theistic spell.

I could use a little comedy.

Response to the first section of your post: Your experience alone is enough to disprove my idea of why people are religious? Well, I'm not going to try and change your mind on this one, but I do think you should have listened to your parents.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't everlasting life the survival of the soul after the death of the body?


Response to the second of your post: Head injury?

 

[Sunstone]

Outright proselytizing is verbotten, but surely in a debate; a major motivation for many is to logically show that your view is correct?

Very true. Thanks for clarifying that!

 

[Booko]

Response to the first section of your post: Your experience alone is enough to disprove my idea of why people are religious? Well, I'm not going to try and change your mind on this one, but I do think you should have listened to your parents.

You think I should've remained a Calvinist?

Why do I get the feeling that you didn't read what I wrote very carefully? You might want to go back and take another look.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't everlasting life the survival of the soul after the death of the body?

Yes, but what does that have to do with anything I said?

I said that as an atheist I didn't care about survival after death, and as a theist I don't care either. If my religion taught that that's it when we die, I'd be fine with that.

So the idea that people necessarily espouse a religion out of some sense of ego-survival after death is now disproved.

Next item?

Response to the second of your post: Head injury?[/quote]

It would be nice if you could find the QUOTE button.

And then there are the other 3 "parts"

 

[LogDog]

F.Y.I. I'm a non-theist. If I were to change my mind, it would be from non-theism to theism. That, however, is unlikely to happen.

Despite my non-theism, I'm not interested in changing anyone else's POV. And I'm certainly not interested in adopting the strange, absurd position that theists don't really believe what they profess to believe.



Not that I know of.

Do you think all religious and spiritual beliefs are delusions, or just some?

You may not be interested in changing anyone elses POV because you seem to be a little unsure about what you truly believe. Are you theist, or non-theist? Maybe you'll find something in this thread that will help you find the answer.

When was the last time you heard a politician profess a disbelief in god? Ever wonder why?

If those religions and spiritual beliefs involve a supernatural being or an omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the answer is yes.

 

[Super Universe]

There is nothing that I am more sure of than the fact that God exists and that He created the multi-verse. Everything else I believe is subject to change, improvement, evolution.

To answer your strange question, if a person held a gun to my child's head and demanded that I renounce God in order to save my son's life. In that case, I would not hesitate to renounce God in an instant. I hope you would understand this without me needing to explain but I fear you won't or you never would have asked it.

God is not judging you on what you say or do here on the earth. Nothing is held against you.

Could you stop loving your son because he strikes out in the last inning and fails to bring home the runner on third base? Some things are just not possible. Any father who condemned his son for such a truly insignificant thing would not be much of a father.

God is not jealous. What could He possibly be jealous of? He does not anger. He does not judge, tempt, torture, or kill any life. These are human traits. Is it so difficult to believe that God is above these pitiful human emotions?

This place is not a test, it is a unniversity, one you volunteered to come to. Just because I swear that God does not exist does not make him cease nor does it really change my belief. Free will is God's gift to all and nothing has the power to change it.

Nothing.


Religion simply helps some see a few tiny rays of sunshine that they would not see otherwise. Some day they will realize that the light flows freely to us, it surrounds us, it is us, and it is everpresent.

 

[LogDog]

They would've prefered I remained atheist

How is religion the path to survival?

You are Booko, right?

 

[Comprehend]

**Wonders if Logdog is ever going to actually address points brought up by Feathers and Booko, and others. Wonders if it was it the difficulty of the questions or the Fnords that are causing such problems?**

 

[LogDog]

**Wonders if Logdog is ever going to actually address points brought up by Feathers and Booko, and others. Wonders if it was it the difficulty of the questions or the Fnords that are causing such problems?**

It's a mute point.


I've been reborn.


Wow. You guys were right. This is awesome.


Pass me the donation tray.

 

[Comprehend]

It's a mute point.


I've been reborn.


Wow. You guys were right. This is awesome.


Pass me the donation tray.

**stops wondering**

Sarcasm is a poor substitute for an actual argument. If you can't answer them, just say so. It looks like you are just filibustering.

 

[LogDog]

**stops wondering**

Sarcasm is a poor substitute for an actual argument. If you can't answer them, just say so. It looks like you are just filibustering.

I could sit here until my fingers fell off trying to defend my ideas in respect to the countless interpretations of god and truth and logic and... But I don't want to and I don't think I could. Do "believers" really believe? The vast majority probably do. But how many out there represent a belief in order to conform to and appease the wishes of peers, parents, voters, or hot christian neighbors? People lie all the time as a matter of self preservation and to get what they want. They lie when speaking the truth would only upset their path of least resistance.

 

[Comprehend]

I could sit here until my fingers fell off trying to defend my ideas in respect to the countless interpretations of god and truth and logic and... But I don't want to and I don't think I could. Do "believers" really believe? The vast majority probably do. But how many out there represent a belief in order to conform to and appease the wishes of peers, parents, voters, or hot christian neighbors? People lie all the time as a matter of self preservation and to get what they want. They lie when speaking the truth would only upset their path of least resistance.

I find that people generally tend to project the views they have of themselves upon society at large.

 

[ayani]

We'd have you hooked up to a lie detector of course.

haha! but that is such a strange way to do this! my goodness, will you really care more about squiggles on a lie detector sheet than the fruits of concern and conviction?

 

[Etherial]

Overview and Synopsis

'THE DIABOLO CODE'

Presented as chapter content

CONTENTS ... p2


PREFACE ... p3


​

Regarding Biblical Pronouncements; Creation; Adam & Eve; Sacrosanct views and beliefs. Questions the infallibility of God's powers; Virgins in Paradise.?

INTERNET REFERENCES ... p7

Explains procedure for accesing WEB information from which resources were used in compilation of this book

INTRODUCTION ... p8


'The only Religion is Truth'; Distinction of various movements/creeds; Native peoples' Idols; Agnostic & Atheists; Personal experiences former years; Background of early cultures; Questioning Women's position through the centuries.

CHAPTER 1 ... Heathenism & Paganism ... p18

Religion defined; Darwin & theories; Concept, early ape-man and primitive awareness. Time span on estimates of progress; Art of the caveman; Appreciation of things natural; Importance of women in early periods; Shamans, Medicine men/women, Witch Doctors, Priests etc; Tribes cover Old World-Europe to Orient; Sun worshipped as chief deity.

CHAPTER 2 ... Roots of Religion ... p37

Mediterranean & Mesopotamian Religions; Pagans and stone idols; Religion in ancient cultures; Origins on word 'GOD'; Polytheism arrives; Sacrificial rituals; Dependence on Gods; God ~ a man made creation? Zorastrian input.

CHAPTER 3 ... World-wide developments ... p56

Looking at India; Caste system; Buddhism; Women's place under Hinduism and Buddhism; Confucianism; Taoism; Oceanic Religions; American areas ~ Mayans, Aztecs, Nazcans, Incas; Native Americans (north).

CHAPTER 4 ... In the Beginning ... p76

Earth and Evolution Time lines; Genesis questioned; Creationism; Noah's ark, flood and animals; Flood facts; Repopulating Earth; Bishop Ussher's calculations; Darwin and Thomas Huxley; The Scopes (monkey) Trials, US; Jewish Torah, the five books of Genesis.

CHAPTER 5 ... The Concept of God ... p96

Christian Church History; What's in a name; God/Yahweh/Allah?; God's perceived gifts; 'Pie in the Sky'; Generational Influences; Personal boyhood; Why male?; God ~ a tool of convenience?; Male 'God' or Mother Nature?; Birth of Satan.

CHAPTER 6 ... Desert Religions ~ The Jews ... p107

Ancient Biblical Races; Arab History and Patriarchal figures; Racial variations; Jews in Slave Trade; Alleged covenant with God; Land Ownership; The Libyan affair; Matt Hale chronicles from US jail; 'Jew Watch' articles by Frank Weltner.

CHAPTER 7 ... Desert Religions ~ The Christians ... p119

Veracity of Jesus Christ; Psychological problems?; Other Messiahs; St. Paul & St. Peter's imput; Attacks on Pagans; Inquisitions; Crusades; Knights Templar; Christians vs. Muslims over Jerusalem.

CHAPTER 8 ... Desert Religions ~ The Muslims ... p136

Origins from Jews and Christians; Dream of Mohammed; Jesus, Mohammed and others; Honour Killings; Death by Stoning; Female genital mutilation; Killing and Violence -justified by divine ordinance.?

CHAPTER 9 ... Slavery ... p152

A heinous crime; Boys castrated to serve as Eunuchs; Young girls destined for Arab Harems; European & Atlantic Slave Triangle; Africa -supply cauldron for Christians, Jews and Muslims -all profiting from the trade.

CHAPTER 10 ... Child Abuse ... p165

Types of Abuse outlined; Praise for Salvation Army; Prayers instead of medicine -the lunatic fringe, US; Islamic torture school, Nairobi; Trafficking; The sex industry -world wide; 1 Million children enter the sex industry annually -UNICEF; The Witch children of Africa; Sorcery cases in the UK; Ritual sacrifices and child victims; Sex workers prey on young girls.

CHAPTER 11 ... Subjugation of Women ... p180

Subjection to Male Dominance; Historic views -Women and Witchcraft; Church slandering of Women; Sins of the world -Eve's fault; Males consistently honoured -Females rejected; Possible Male inferiority complex?; Women ~ the Holy Grail, the 'Mother of Life'.

CHAPTER 12 ... Religious differences ... p195


Origins ~ different faiths; Splinter groups; Total church power; Protestant breakaways; Martin Luther, King Henry viii, Calvin, Knox, Wycliffe etc...; Royal supporters of establishment; Tudor Dynasty in UK.; Rise of Cromwell; The Thirty Years War; Muslim sects explored; Would-be conquerors and false Messiahs.

CHAPTER 13 ... A Matter of Choice ... p212

Baptism; Marriage; Sikhism and Karma; Deism; Pantheism; Agnosticism/Atheism; Natural groups; Importance of Nature; Plant experiments; Some great People; Counselling from philosophical sources.

CHAPTER 14 ... Review and the Alternative ... p229

Reviewing the history and religious development of Mankind; Elements of destruction vs. goodness; Deferring to Nature; Seven great figures of history; Govt. failures; Voluntary Euthanasia; Perceptions of Heaven, Hell, Paradise; Depth of Love; Intelligent Design in Nature; Some tentative signs of evidence; Everything, irrevocably a part of Nature; Nature from the big bang.

The Mind of God ... or ... The Mind of Nature?...

 

[matthew.william]

I could sit here until my fingers fell off trying to defend my ideas in respect to the countless interpretations of god and truth and logic and... But I don't want to and I don't think I could. Do "believers" really believe? The vast majority probably do. But how many out there represent a belief in order to conform to and appease the wishes of peers, parents, voters, or hot christian neighbors? People lie all the time as a matter of self preservation and to get what they want. They lie when speaking the truth would only upset their path of least resistance.

Ahh, yes, it IS terribly popular to have true faith in something these days! I remember just the other day over-hearing my peers comment how they'd love to give up their prominent drinking, lustful natures, and seared conscience in favor of my christian beliefs. People defintely looked up to me in high school because they knew I believed in the man and message of Jesus. They threw palm branches at my feet as I walked the hall, and shouted "Hallelujah!" when I answered a question. Yep, it's defintely way easier to have faith than to just do what you please in your short time on this earth.

It's painfully obvious to me that you are basing your views of people of faith in a very narrow column. I wonder, Logdog, if you have any friends who truly have faith in something? Not "christians" who pay tribute to God by going to church every sunday, then forgetting His existence until the next, but people who earnestly pursue their faiths. If I were to completely forget all of christianity, and then see the way christians are portrayed, and how a majority didn't really care about there faith, I would be right beside you asking what the deal was.

~matthew.william~

 

[Feathers in Hair]

LogDog, I would really appreciate a direct response to my post. (Without sarcasm, for preference. ) I tried to address a number of the things that you brought up and wasn't sure if I did so successfully.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Do “Believers” really believe? How would one make that determination?

By stepping into their mocassins and walking a mile.

Everyone has a different life, filled with different experiences. I, for example, grew up Christian with some Eastern philosophical influence, then was exposed to paganism in college. College philosphy tore down my belief system to the point where I was near atheism, couldn't deal with it at the time, and so used the tools of philosophy to rebuild a new spirituality. My new spirituality is not much different from my old, because I accept that my beliefs are influenced by the life I have lived with the influences I was given.

Our lives are a mix of the rational and logic, the irrational and creative. We are imaginative creatures that create our own world: trapped in a subjective existence with objective forces we can only assume we know. Theists believe because they have lived a life that forces them to believe. Or, they need to believe.

 

[LogDog]

LogDog, I would really appreciate a direct response to my post. (Without sarcasm, for preference. ) I tried to address a number of the things that you brought up and wasn't sure if I did so successfully.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner Feathers. I'm assuming you want an answer for how my "illness" comment applies to someone with a polytheistic belief system. First, allow me to apologize if my comment offended you or anyone else reading this thread. I've been warned by a forum moderator, and I agree, my comment crossed a line. I hope though that my following reply will suffice as an answer to your post. For me, the particulars of any given religion are irrelevant. If you claim to have a "relationship" with any invisible supernatural being no matter who or what you claim it to be, I'm going to question your judgement. To choose to deny the overwhelmingly strong evidence for the nonexistence of anything supernatural is, in my mind, irrational at best.

 

[matthew.william]

To choose to deny the overwhelmingly strong evidence for the nonexistence of anything supernatural is, in my mind, irrational at best.

I was unaware there could be strong evidence for the nonexistence of things.

~matthew.william~

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Thank you for your reply, LogDog. That does, indeed, suffice.